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Invisiblecarbonhoots
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Registered: 09/11/01
Posts: 1,351
Loc: BC Canada
Fossilgate
    #1456149 - 04/14/03 04:00 AM (14 years, 5 months ago)



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  -I'd rather have a frontal lobotomy than a bottle in front of me

CANADIAN CENTER FOR POLICY ALTERNATIVES


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Anonymous

Re: Fossilgate [Re: carbonhoots]
    #1456569 - 04/14/03 09:31 AM (14 years, 5 months ago)

i think that technology will solve the problems it has caused. a chicken embryo in an egg does not worry that it may be running out of yoke.

oil will be obsolete before it's exhuasted.


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InvisibleBuddha5254
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Re: Fossilgate [Re: ]
    #1456754 - 04/14/03 12:05 PM (14 years, 5 months ago)

you better fucking hope it becomes obsolete. If that shit runs out and everyone still needs it everything will hit the fan. Ive read before that Western consumption will actually go down, but consumption in India and China is supposed to skyrocket with their development and industrialization, consuming more than we ever dreamed.


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OfflineBaby_Hitler
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Re: Fossilgate [Re: carbonhoots]
    #1456998 - 04/14/03 02:20 PM (14 years, 5 months ago)

We have enough coal to last us for 300 years.

Liquid petroleum will start getting scarce soon though I think.


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OfflineAzmodeus
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Re: Fossilgate [Re: ]
    #1457248 - 04/14/03 04:13 PM (14 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

oil will be obsolete before it's exhuasted. 




Oil already is obsolete....it just hasn't exhausted its economic potential yet! :wink:


--------------------
"Know your Body - Know your Mind - Know your Substance - Know your Source.

Lest we forget. "


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Offlinehongomon
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Re: Fossilgate [Re: ]
    #1458769 - 04/15/03 12:08 AM (14 years, 5 months ago)

Mushmaster:
oil will be obsolete before it's exhuasted.

I wish you were right, for a lot of reasons, but I don't think you are. I have the sinking feeling that we are going to go after every drop of oil we can until it is simply economocially unfeasable to get at what's left. I think that in time we'll be drilling in ANWAR. In time there will be offshore rigs, all over the place, like you now see dotting the skyline off Huntingbeach, CA.

I have two reasons for this pessimism: first, barring few and commendable exceptions people feel no real urgency to explore alternate energy. Something like 200 million new cars (gas burning cars) will be sold in the U.S. alone in the next year. Sum this reason up as complacency.

The second reason is that both the auto industries and the oil industries of the world have a good thing going and they're in no rush to put an end to it prematurely (before the oil supply is gone). These industries have immense amounts of money and resources at their disposal and for every smidgen that goes into exploring non-fossil fuel technology, a thousand smidgens go into preserving their current market. Sum this reason up as greed.

What really pisses me off is that when oil finally does run out, it will be these same industries who will then have the greatest shot at establishing the market for whatever technology comes next, and frankly I'd rather piss on their begonias than buy one of their cars.

hongomon


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Invisiblecarbonhoots
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Registered: 09/11/01
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Re: Fossilgate [Re: hongomon]
    #1459385 - 04/15/03 05:27 AM (14 years, 5 months ago)

All I know is...something is going to have to change in a big way, or dieoff will occur. That much is inevitable.

And of course out planet can comftorably sustain us without oil.

But it means making the right choices, as a collective.

It does not seem that the process to change has started in earnest yet...it would be a shame if the energy ran low and real nessecity became the motivation to change. It doesn't have to be that way. Does it?



--------------------
  -I'd rather have a frontal lobotomy than a bottle in front of me

CANADIAN CENTER FOR POLICY ALTERNATIVES


Edited by carbonhoots (04/15/03 05:29 AM)


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OfflinePhred
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Re: Fossilgate [Re: hongomon]
    #1459659 - 04/15/03 09:24 AM (14 years, 5 months ago)

hongomon writes:

Something like 200 million new cars (gas burning cars) will be sold in the U.S. alone in the next year.

Are you saying that the number of cars on the road in the US will increase by 200 million next year? If so, you are incorrect. Remember that at the same time these new cars are being sold, old cars are being scrapped. Remember that the old cars being scrapped on average got lower mileage and polluted more than the new cars being bought to replace them.

These industries have immense amounts of money and resources at their disposal and for every smidgen that goes into exploring non-fossil fuel technology, a thousand smidgens go into preserving their current market.

Please clarify. Is this thousand to one ratio true only of the contributions of the two industries you mentioned or does it include money and resources spent from all sources?

And I should point out that there is a reason why oil is so widely used -- it is the most convenient energy alternative. There is no need to promote its use, the consumer quickly discovers for himself that this is the case.

As long as ecological activists make it impossible for more nuclear plants to be built in North America, and make it economically unfeasible for electrical plants to burn coal, North American consumption of petroleum for energy production will not decline.

pinky


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Edited by pinksharkmark (04/15/03 09:26 AM)


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Offlinehongomon
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Re: Fossilgate [Re: Phred]
    #1460344 - 04/15/03 02:53 PM (14 years, 5 months ago)

Pinky writes:
Are you saying that the number of cars on the road in the US will increase by 200 million next year? If so, you are incorrect. Remember that at the same time these new cars are being sold, old cars are being scrapped.

No, I'm not saying that. In fact, I need to correct myself: There are something like 200 million cars currently existing in the US, with only 20 million sold in a typical year. My bad.

But let's PLEASE not assume that for every car crashed into a tree or otherwise removed from the road, one car is introduced, thus maintaining a nice level number of cars on the roads. A 1:1 ratio would be beautiful, but I'm willing to gamble my left nut that the quantity of cars on the roads rises yearly. I'm not quite as confident about this next one so I'll only gamble a small patch of scrotum skin: the ratio of cars to people will also continue to increase.

But that's beside the point I was making to Mushmaster. I was merely pointing out that we're still putting gas-burning cars out in the millions. Therefore, your second comment was more to the point:
Remember that the old cars being scrapped on average got lower mileage and polluted more than the new cars being bought to replace them

This is true, and it's a good point. Hippies who drive around in old VW busses yelling at yuppies driving around in SUVs is a bit comical, I agree.

That said, however, I also agree with Carbonhoots that "It does not seem that the process to change has started in earnest yet." And I gave two reasons that I feel that process hasn't started in earnest, summed up as complacency and greed.

Maybe it's a combination of these factors that has led to the average fuel economy to actually fall in recent years. I think this speech by Robert Kennedy, Jr. is interesting and relevent. (Hell, I must, I'm always posting it here)

Now I know that oil consumption is only one factor in considering an automobile, and I'm glad there have been some improvements in other areas.

I disagree with you that nuclear power is our best solution, though I have to laugh about how you seem to look for opportunities to take jabs at environmentalists, for whom you seem to feel a real disliking. Take Taiwan, for example. Taiwan is a small country, of only 20 million souls, and they have three nuclear reactors and are in a small battle over whether to make a fourth. Why so many? One reason is that they have no sense of moderation. That goes back to complacency.

Well, I'm at the library again, and my time is up.

peace
hongomon


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OfflineAzmodeus
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Re: Fossilgate [Re: Phred]
    #1460384 - 04/15/03 03:03 PM (14 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

As long as ecological activists make it impossible for more nuclear plants to be built in North America, and make it economically unfeasible for electrical plants to burn coal, North American consumption of petroleum for energy production will not decline.




I disagree. I think the activists are only a small part of the problem. Its the fact that government officials and oil company ceo's refuse to market the hybrid cars, and invest the tax money to research alternate fuel sources. It wouldn't be that hard to give a 5 year "warining" in which more hybrid cars shall be produced and then after that time period, only hybrid cars shall be produced. Then people can take up to ten years before having to "switch" thier vehicle, not to mention they could offer good trade value for gas consuming vehicles being used to purchase hybrid cars.


--------------------
"Know your Body - Know your Mind - Know your Substance - Know your Source.

Lest we forget. "


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Invisiblez@z.com
Libertarian
Registered: 10/13/02
Posts: 2,876
Loc: ATL
Re: Fossilgate [Re: Azmodeus]
    #1460456 - 04/15/03 03:23 PM (14 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

I disagree. I think the activists are only a small part of the problem. Its the fact that government officials and oil company ceo's refuse to market the hybrid cars, and invest the tax money to research alternate fuel sources. It wouldn't be that hard to give a 5 year "warining" in which more hybrid cars shall be produced and then after that time period, only hybrid cars shall be produced. Then people can take up to ten years before having to "switch" thier vehicle, not to mention they could offer good trade value for gas consuming vehicles being used to purchase hybrid cars.



So car companies are supposed to give a good trade in value for gas only cars that won't be usable anymore. I suppose they are just going to pull all that money out of their ass huh?
Besides we have a long way to go before we run out of oil. When it becomes more and more expensive to get at the remaining oil companies will work very hard to come up with alternate energy sources. By switching to hybrid cars we are just delaying the switch to an alternate energy source and not doing anything to promote it.


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"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." - C.S. Lewis

"I would rather be exposed to the inconveniencies attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson


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OfflineAzmodeus
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Re: Fossilgate [Re: z@z.com]
    #1460482 - 04/15/03 03:33 PM (14 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

I suppose they are just going to pull all that money out of their ass huh?




...lol...i was kinda hoping, yeah! :wink:




--------------------
"Know your Body - Know your Mind - Know your Substance - Know your Source.

Lest we forget. "


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InvisibleEvolving
Resident Cynic

Registered: 10/01/02
Posts: 5,385
Loc: Apt #6, The Village
Re: Fossilgate [Re: hongomon]
    #1460618 - 04/15/03 04:13 PM (14 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

I gave two reasons that I feel that process hasn't started in earnest, summed up as complacency and greed.



There is another often overlooked reason. The true cost of oil is hidden in the general tax revenues. The cost of military and foreign aid to the mid-east could realistically be said to be a cost of doing business in the region. If these expenditures were calculated into the cost of a gallon of gas rather than being hidden in other tax revenue streams, the higher fuel prices would be an incentive for more conservation.

Why should the man who does everything he can to reduce his use of fossil fuels, be penalized via income tax or tariffs paid in the price of goods he purchases? Such a person is being punished by virtue of his lifestyle - he is forced to subsidize the foreign operations of large corporations. The oil companies should pay for their own protection and foreign aid in foreign lands which they deem critical for their business. This is a way of utilizing the free-market as opposed to our current system of Corporatism.*


*No, we do not have a system of Laissez Faire Capitalism see this post, What is American Corporatism?).


--------------------
To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.


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Offlinehongomon
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Registered: 04/14/02
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Re: Fossilgate [Re: Evolving]
    #1468069 - 04/17/03 06:59 PM (14 years, 5 months ago)

Very interesting post! I will definitely consider that third option.

If, for argumement's sake, a truly laissez-faire capitalist system were to be a good ideal, what would be the best way to keep my two factors (complacency and greed) from bringing that laissez-faire capitalist system down to something similar to our current problem of corporatism?

hongomon


Edited by hongomon (04/17/03 07:06 PM)


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OfflinePhred
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Re: Fossilgate [Re: hongomon]
    #1472991 - 04/19/03 01:03 PM (14 years, 5 months ago)

hongomon writes:

I disagree with you that nuclear power is our best solution, though I have to laugh about how you seem to look for opportunities to take jabs at environmentalists, for whom you seem to feel a real disliking.

The professional "environmentalists" (the anti-nuke plant crowd in particular) have their own agenda and are immune to logic and strangers to the scientific method. It is not that I dislike them so much as that I don't take them seriously.

Take Taiwan, for example. Taiwan is a small country, of only 20 million souls, and they have three nuclear reactors and are in a small battle over whether to make a fourth. Why so many?

Perhaps because they want to use nuclear energy to supply all their electrical needs, thus lowering their output of "greenhouse gases"? Did they sign the Kyoto agreement?

Can you supply us with a credible source showing that their current demand (let alone what they will need a few years down the road) for electricity is completely met by the output of their three existing nuclear plants?

One reason is that they have no sense of moderation. That goes back to complacency.

I fail to understand how planning in advance for anticipated future electrical needs illustrates an attitude of either immoderation or complacency.

pinky


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Offlinehongomon
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Re: Fossilgate [Re: Phred]
    #1482828 - 04/22/03 04:56 PM (14 years, 5 months ago)

Pinky:
The professional "environmentalists" (the anti-nuke plant crowd in particular) have their own agenda and are immune to logic and strangers to the scientific method. It is not that I dislike them so much as that I don't take them seriously.

Your generalization is minus every single environmentalist who uses logic and is not a stranger to the scientific method. As for their "own" agenda, I'm not sure what you mean. Again, it's a pretty sweeping generalization.

Not that I'm against generalizations, apparently: "One reason is that they have no sense of moderation." Here, I have ignored every Taiwanese who does have a sense of moderation.

Pinky:
I fail to understand how planning in advance for anticipated future electrical needs illustrates an attitude of either immoderation or complacency.

I never said it did. My generalization was based on two things. One is my own personal opinion/theory that when a person or a group of people is/are prosperous, two things they must look out for are immoderation and complacency, for these things will show up along with the prosperity. The other is my own experience of living in Taiwan for three years, and observing. I'm not saying they're bad people, but that like Americans, they're human and are now facing some of the challenges of their relatively new prosperity.

I'm skirting the line between politics and spirituality. I do that a lot.

hongomon


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OfflinePhred
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Re: Fossilgate [Re: hongomon]
    #1484495 - 04/23/03 12:12 AM (14 years, 5 months ago)

hongomon writes:

I never said it did. My generalization was based on two things. One is my own personal opinion/theory that when a person or a group of people is/are prosperous, two things they must look out for are immoderation and complacency, for these things will show up along with the prosperity. The other is my own experience of living in Taiwan for three years, and observing.

Uhhhh -- okay. What confused me is when you said --

Taiwan is a small country, of only 20 million souls, and they have three nuclear reactors and are in a small battle over whether to make a fourth. Why so many? One reason is that they have no sense of moderation. That goes back to complacency.

-- I interpreted that to mean that you thought three or four nuclear plants was too many for them to have, and that the reason they have too many is because they have no sense of moderation. Gee, I don't know how I could have gotten that impression from what you wrote.

pinky


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OfflineI_Fart_Blue
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Re: Fossilgate [Re: hongomon]
    #1484600 - 04/23/03 12:50 AM (14 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:


If, for argumement's sake, a truly laissez-faire capitalist system were to be a good ideal, what would be the best way to keep my two factors (complacency and greed) from bringing that laissez-faire capitalist system down to something similar to our current problem of corporatism?




You couldn't, which is the biggest reason why the laissez-faire doctrine was somewhat abandoned through the latter half of the 19th century.


--------------------
"A study of the history of opinion is a necessary preliminary to the emancipation of the mind. I do not know which makes a man more conservative-to know nothing but the present, or nothing but the past." -John Maynard Keynes


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OfflineTheShroomHermit
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Re: Fossilgate [Re: carbonhoots]
    #1484604 - 04/23/03 12:52 AM (14 years, 5 months ago)

The machine has been built, and it is running, according to Discover magazine. You put biological waste (animal guts, human waste etc), plastics, rubber... Pretty much any non-radioactive carbon based material. The machine breaks down the polymers, and out comes sterile water, gas (fuel grade) oil (fuel grade) and an assortment of minerals (which often has an excellent balance to use in plants)

A wonderful machine.


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InvisibleEvolving
Resident Cynic

Registered: 10/01/02
Posts: 5,385
Loc: Apt #6, The Village
Re: Fossilgate [Re: hongomon]
    #1484751 - 04/23/03 01:36 AM (14 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

If, for argumement's sake, a truly laissez-faire capitalist system were to be a good ideal,



I find no system to be 'ideal,' utopia is not an option. Government should neither promote nor discourage capitalism, but allow people to make free choices and protect the rights of all individuals equally. Capitalistic behaviors will arise naturally as humans attempt to make the decisions that best serve their well being.

Quote:

...what would be the best way to keep my two factors (complacency and greed) from bringing that laissez-faire capitalist system down to something similar to our current problem of corporatism?



Complacency takes many forms, some you might actually like and some I might like, there are instances where our opinions might be in direct opposition. The concept of complacency is something that is part of human nature and will affect any political system. One thing that MIGHT help is decentralization of power. When individuals deal with large bureaucratic organizations, there seems to be a greater degree of perceived impotence and hence complacency. Why try to do something if your efforts will be futile?

We'll also have to come up with a more or less objective definition of greed as it is rather subjective. My personal opinion is that envy is easier to define and much worse for the human condition. However, that being said if we examine history, some of the greatest instances of industrial excesses have been sanctioned or actually promoted through the government. The establishment of the transcontinental railroad is the first that comes to mind. Whenever too much power is vested in government, those with the means will attempt to utilize that power towards their ends. Government's best role is as a watchdog, to assure that fraud and various forms of theft and trespass are severely punished. Corporations (or any entity not a citizen) should not be allowed to donate any money to political office holders or candidates, only individual citizens should be allowed this right. Corporations should not have any rights except those which derive from the individuals which make up the organizations. Corporate officers should be held personally responsible for their actions as they effect other individuals. Tax laws should not favor corporations over individuals. Pollution should be treated as trespass, instead of the government collecting fines, when a polluter is identified those affected should be allowed (indeed, encouraged) to sue for damages (from my experience with Chevron U.S.A. Products Company, this would be much more punitive than the current system of fines).


--------------------
To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.


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