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OfflineMycelio
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What about some progress here?
    #14560946 - 06/04/11 05:04 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Hello everybody,

I know, I could post this under 'Website Announcements and Feedback', but it is solely related to the GGMM forum and I'm sure, most of us would never read it there...

What I often think about is an improved structure of this forum. Discussing all aspects of GGMM in one section is somehow like having all the files on our hard drives in one, large directory and using old style MS-DOS commands to look through them.
Its also sad to see things being discussed again and again, week by week, while the most helpful posts vanish into nirvana quickly and while finding them by searching gets harder and harder. Of course some of our long time members do a great job by adding their knowledge to current discussions, but isn't it a waste of time and resources?

If we would create several sub forums, related to mushroom species and working steps, each with a few sticky threads on important details, the shroomery GGMM section would be structured like a good book, making it much easier to access the information we are after. Of course the main GGMM forum should remain for mixed issues, beginners questions and everything else that won't fit in there, but just imagine the effect of having all Agaricus threads at one place, or having a section only for shiitake with a sticky by RR about maximum supplementation rate, one for edibles on PF-Tek, one for going commercial with Jeremy_Davis's PDF as sticky and so on.
The mushroom cultivation archive with its sub forums
http://www.shroomery.org/forums/postlist.php/Board/58
is a good example for how it could look like, though of course we would need more sections and a few with subsections.

Is it just me, who thinks it would be a great step ahead?

Carsten


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Invisiblearis
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Re: What about some progress here? [Re: Mycelio]
    #14561031 - 06/04/11 05:27 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

I'm all for more organization and removal of outdated and wrong info....


Edited by aris (06/06/11 12:09 PM)


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InvisibleFernandoCastro
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Re: What about some progress here? [Re: Mycelio]
    #14561940 - 06/04/11 08:56 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Mycelio said: Is it just me, who thinks it would be a great step ahead?




Agreed
The Cultivation model could perfectly be the way to start, providing structure and selectivity.

Great suggestion.


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OfflineSKrink
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Re: What about some progress here? [Re: Mycelio]
    #14566681 - 06/05/11 09:40 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Mycelio said:
If we would create several sub forums, related to mushroom species and working steps, each with a few sticky threads on important details, the shroomery GGMM section would be structured like a good book, making it much easier to access the information we are after.




As a beginner sifting through a gazillion threads and linking in all directions, I support this wholeheartedly. I'd love to be able to access a section of Underlying Principles (aka: what's going on in each stage of mycelium life cycle, and what they need in each stage) and a separate section on detailed Teks (aka: how we give them what they need)

Personally, the underlying principles are the most important to me though, and weirdly the hardest to find answers to within the current site structure. Often, I'll read that a specific detail that must be done Because It Works, but rarely any info on why the mycelium needs to it be so. Or what the myc is getting from it.

Anyway yes, this sounds like a fantastic idea. And thanks to everyone who contributes valuable information on this forum!


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OfflinePitcherCrab
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Re: What about some progress here? [Re: SKrink]
    #14567641 - 06/06/11 12:50 AM (12 years, 7 months ago)

I really like this idea. What would it take to get this working... we would need to get the mods on board and if possible figure out a way to make it easy for them to choose which important threads should be placed into each section. Perhaps use this thread (or start another) where we can nominate which threads we think should go into each section so they don't have to do all the work on their own. What do you guys think would be some good section headings?

To start here are a few heading ideas: Oysters (or maybe Pleurotus), Shiitakes, Medicinals, Other Gourmet and Medicinals, Green Houses/Grow Rooms/Other Equipment

I don't have time right now to post ideas for good threads, but when I get a second I'll start digging up some of my favorites.


--------------------
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“I must not fear. Fear is the mind-killer. Fear is the little death that brings total obliteration. I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me. And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path. Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.” - Bene Gesserit Litany Against Fear



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OfflineMycelio
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Re: What about some progress here? [Re: PitcherCrab]
    #14568039 - 06/06/11 04:42 AM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Thanks to all of you for the positive comments. Perhaps we should wait a week to give our mods enough time to make up their minds and decide.

Regarding what it would take... I did not think about creating lots of work and expecting our two mods to do all of it. To be honest, I am running a german speaking forum for edibles (http://kulturpilz.de) and did that before. First we were collecting ideas for a few weeks, maintaining a big list in the first post of the planning thread. When no more ideas came in, we did some thematic sorting/grouping, effectively reducing the number of sections. Then I created all the forums and sub forums. So far it was not much work, but sorting in all the old threads was. Fortunately we only had about 1500 threads to handle, but I would not want to do something this alone again.
Here, with more than 7000 threads, we should treat the sorting of old threads as an option, only if several trustworthy members would volunteer. Searching and moving threads of rare species (Volvariella, Sparassis, whatever else) could be fun and very little work.

Our main sections were:
  • beginners questions
  • sterile procedures
  • non sterile cultivation
  • fruiting conditions, harvest, yields
  • outdoor cultivation
  • grow reports / discussions / experiments
  • contaminations and pests
  • images
  • tools and technology
  • general and advanced mycology
  • mushroom medicine
  • commercial cultivation
  • portraits of species

where for example the 'sterile procedures' branch into
  • agar
  • lc
  • clones and spores
  • spawn
  • substrates
  • long term storage

and 'grow reports / discussions / experiments' contain more than two dozens of subsections for species and genusses.

Of course here on the shroomery thing would be different, as we already have sections for contamination, advanced mycology, stamets' cultivation parameters and so on.

Carsten


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InvisibleMonkeyKnifeFight
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Re: What about some progress here? [Re: Mycelio] * 1
    #14568860 - 06/06/11 10:53 AM (12 years, 7 months ago)

This seems really overly complicated to me.  There just isn't enough content coming in to warrant breaking it up into a zillion sub forums.  What is gained by breaking up grow discussions into different areas?  What if you have an outdoor sterile grow?  Does it go in the outdoor section or the sterile section? 

Basically we'd be going from one central place to easily find threads to 13 forums further broken down into 50+ subforums.  Sounds like a move in the wrong direction to me.


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InvisibleTangich

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Re: What about some progress here? [Re: MonkeyKnifeFight]
    #14568998 - 06/06/11 11:32 AM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Hm, I think it's kinda a good idea, but also as MKF said, overly complicated, this forum isn't as active as some others.
And the Shroomery isn't really organized that way.
Maybe what could be done is to introduce 'categories' like in some other sub forums, shiitake, oysters, equipement, grow logs etc., that would at least make it a bit easier to find desired content.


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Invisiblearis
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Re: What about some progress here? [Re: Tangich]
    #14569118 - 06/06/11 12:05 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Something that allows the readers, writers and mods organize with a reward system for the organizers.

That would be nifty!

Perhaps a Keyword box right next to Subject box while posting.

For readers a "suggest a keyword" button.

Theres code to do just this sorta tagging thing in the freeware community.  A Democratic tagging system.  I wish I knew more about it.


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OfflineMycelio
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Re: What about some progress here? [Re: Tangich]
    #14572812 - 06/07/11 03:33 AM (12 years, 7 months ago)

@MKF & Tangish
Gentlemen, I was giving an example from somewhere else, stating that several of those 13 main sections already exist elsewhere on shroomery. Here, a couple of them would occupy less space than the current stickies in GGMM. In the case of the species related category, you would see the title plus a list of its sub forums in small letters, using very little space and being accessible with only one click from the main GGMM page.

Of course there will be threads that can be placed into one or the other sub forum, but thats fine, it won't be a problem.

The central place we have now is like an endless line of unsorted papers on the floor, where the amount of traffic does not really matter. We do not even have something like thematic piles nor shelves.

Tangish, wouldn't a section or category for Stropharia rugosoannulata have answered you current questions months ago? Grouping threads of rarely cultivated species will have the greatest effect, not to mention how hard it is for beginners to wade through the current system. If we made it as easy as possible for our new members, we might end up with more experienced growers, being able to concentrate on advanced tasks and share results.

Carsten


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InvisibleMonkeyKnifeFight
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Re: What about some progress here? [Re: Mycelio] * 1
    #14574336 - 06/07/11 12:54 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

That's just not how people work when it comes to forums like these.  A bunch of subforums just orphan content because people want a simple central place to find what they're looking for.  If you are looking for something specific you should just go type it into the search box.  Most people are too lazy to even do that and instead just repeat the same questions over and over again.  But that happens on every forum.

If we really want to improve content in this forum we should add a sticky that is "Can I grow species X using pf-tek" or "What edible has similar growing conditions to cubes".  That alone would filter out about 50% of the questions asked around here.  I don't see any advantage to taking the content and spreading it over several subforums, most of which will have little or no content.

More subforums won't make people more experienced mushroom growers.  Growing mushrooms will.


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OfflineRogerRabbitM
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Re: What about some progress here? [Re: Mycelio]
    #14574592 - 06/07/11 01:52 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

These are nice suggestions and ideas, but here's a few considerations to think about. 

Part of what you're asking would be better suited to a print or online book format, rather than a forum where everyone participates.  Also, the cultivation parameters for most species overlap, since with few exceptions, we make and use spawn, bulk substrates, etc., essentially the same way regardless of species, and of course sterile procedure doesn't get adjusted for various mushroom types either. Obviously, certain things like supplementation change depending on species, but I'm not sure it deserves a separate forum.

Over in the cultivation forum, I recently dumped almost all the sticky threads because nobody was reading them anyway.  Then of course, there's the time constraints on the staff here(in this forum it's primarily me :shrug:) and finding time for it is tough. I generally only have time to pop in here during my morning coffee and again during my afternoon beer break(I love being self-employed). If you have time to do it, I could make a couple of stickies at the top of the page, and you could plug in the info you'd like to see there and we'll see how it goes.  The crowd here is generally a higher species of primate than is found in cultivation, so a few stickies might be the way to go.  If they evolve to a point where they should be branched off to a new forum, I'm sure we can pull it off.
RR


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OfflineMycelio
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Re: What about some progress here? [Re: RogerRabbit]
    #14578316 - 06/08/11 04:57 AM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Why not integrate some helpful aspects of books here, if they serve us well and can be implemented with little work?

Damned, I realize it is not only hard to explain what I have in mind, it must be even harder to imagine when reading.

Regarding those species or genus related sub forums, they are for everything unique about one type (reasonable supplementation rates for shiitake, fruiting oysters, casing for the genus Agaricus, substrate comparisons for rare species, ...), while common and overlapping issues (wood based subs, straw preparation, ...) would be discussed one level above. The tree structure of the forums would also appear like a table of contents, making it extremely easy to find the info you are looking for, even when you are not yet familiar with the proper terms.

Regarding the stickies... MKF already mentioned two important ones, but there are more things to cover, not only 'how fast can I get rich growing mushrooms' or 'which mushroom should I grow first'. In my eyes, basic things like 'why and how do we sterilize/pasteurize' should become sticky too, as there is no development or progress on the issue, making it necessary to discuss it over and over again. Right now the repeated discussions always require somebody to look over it and correct false statements.
In the other forum, newcomers sometimes asked to create a FAQ or wiki for them. Everybody agreed it would be a good thing, but of course nobody wanted to do all the work. Now that we have a section for 'beginners questions', they just read the threads and stickies in there, ask less, but more specific questions and get over the initial hurdles faster. Sure there will still be a few of the ignorant type, expecting to be spoon fed and getting away without looking around or reading something, but I know the majority of new members would love it. I only think with the current flat forum structure, so many stickies would blocking too much space on the main GGMM page.

Generally, I would be willing to put in some work here, as long as I know it won't become forgotten within a week. I am moderating and administrating elsewhere too, so my time is also limited and I am thinking of solutions, which require the least amount of work.

Just thinking... creating a sub forum for the beginners questions would not require much time. Having it as the top item on the GGMM page, moving in a couple of recent threads, including the sterilization discussion we had a few days ago (which might become sticky BTW) could serve as an easy test run.

Carsten


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OfflineRogerRabbitM
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Re: What about some progress here? [Re: Mycelio]
    #14578440 - 06/08/11 06:43 AM (12 years, 7 months ago)

The problem in that is as a moderator, I can't create sub-forums. The idea has been kicked around for years among the staff, but every time ends up getting shot down as further complicating the board.

Perhaps we can create a gourmet and medicinal archive, like the one in cultivation.  In that, we could have the sections you're asking, and then threads could be moved from here to there to populate the sections, if that would help.

I'm also in the process of writing an online textbook of mushroom cultivation, and am about 400 pages deep so far. This covers everything you've asked in the format you're asking for it to be, but now that I'm in the busy season with our farm, it has to wait until the snow returns this winter before I can get back into it.  It's probably two years away from going live, so isn't going to help in the meantime.  But. . .half of all the substrates I make for our mushroom farm are of experimental composition, so I'm compiling a ton of data on what works, what works well, and what doesn't, and this will all be covered in the book.
RR


--------------------
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semper in excretia sumus solim profundum variat

"I've never had a failed experiment.  I've only discovered 10,000 methods which do not work."
Thomas Edison


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InvisibleHacendado
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Re: What about some progress here? [Re: RogerRabbit]
    #14579728 - 06/08/11 01:07 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

This forum has been a great source of knowledge to me and I would like to see it
redecorated. I think this is a great idea. Especially with agaricus and some exotic
species. There is little relevant info on that.
My opinion is that It shouldn't be too complicated but yet relevant.
Thank you Carsten for bringing this up :super:


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InvisibleEvilMushroom666
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Re: What about some progress here? [Re: RogerRabbit]
    #14579875 - 06/08/11 01:41 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

RogerRabbit said:
I'm also in the process of writing an online textbook of mushroom cultivation, and am about 400 pages deep so far. This covers everything you've asked in the format you're asking for it to be, but now that I'm in the busy season with our farm, it has to wait until the snow returns this winter before I can get back into it.  It's probably two years away from going live, so isn't going to help in the meantime.  But. . .half of all the substrates I make for our mushroom farm are of experimental composition, so I'm compiling a ton of data on what works, what works well, and what doesn't, and this will all be covered in the book.
RR





Have you thought about releasing it as a hard copy book? I am not sure
what printing would run you, but I can bet there would be a lot less
piracy if you did not release it online. Yes, people could still scan
it and post it around, but if you release it as an online textbook it
would make things a whole lot easier for the pirates.

Either way I am interested in purchasing this textbook when it comes
around, I am sure it will be very interesting.


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OfflineHumility
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Re: What about some progress here? [Re: EvilMushroom666]
    #14579923 - 06/08/11 01:53 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Perhaps we can create a gourmet and medicinal archive, like the one in cultivation.  In that, we could have the sections you're asking, and then threads could be moved from here to there to populate the sections, if that would help.




Sounds like a good idea.

Don't break your neck implementing it.  The search engine is pretty robust and has the added benefit of teaching you new things you weren't necessarily looking for, like reading the dictionary in a foreign language.


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OfflineRogerRabbitM
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Re: What about some progress here? [Re: Humility] * 1
    #14580067 - 06/08/11 02:25 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Have you thought about releasing it as a hard copy book?




Yes, but there's not a chance in hell I'll do that until copyright laws change, or begin to be enforced. If someone robs a bank, the FBI tracks them down and they go to jail-if they steal from me, people call it 'sharing', so fuck that.  99.999% of the people who have my DVD downloaded it illegally, which includes a majority of you who are reading this, and I'll never, EVER put time and effort into something so easy to steal until people either become honest or the government decides to work for the little guy instead of the large corporations.  I've got a ton of video on much more advanced topics, as well as my latest research, that I refuse to release because of it.

My idea for the online book was to make it free, but ad supported, and all the pictures would be thumbnail size.  If people don't want to look at ads, they can become a 'member' for $5 or so and get the book with full size pictures and no ads.  I doubt any low-life thieves would bother spending the time uploading something to a torrent site that only costs $5 to begin with.
RR


--------------------
Download Let's Grow Mushrooms



semper in excretia sumus solim profundum variat

"I've never had a failed experiment.  I've only discovered 10,000 methods which do not work."
Thomas Edison


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OfflineNSF
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Re: What about some progress here? [Re: RogerRabbit]
    #14580837 - 06/08/11 05:01 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

I'm a member of another forum that's only new but has a different and still evolving structure but it seems to work pretty well.

http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/14578273

Another option would be to break the forum down by species: shiitake, agaricus, reishi, agrocybe and flammulina (shape related ;p ), oyster, hypsizygus, etc etc.


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OfflineMycelio
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Re: What about some progress here? [Re: RogerRabbit]
    #14581061 - 06/08/11 05:49 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

RogerRabbit said:
The problem in that is as a moderator, I can't create sub-forums. The idea has been kicked around for years among the staff, but every time ends up getting shot down as further complicating the board.



Oh, I always assumed you were one of the founders of shroomery and didn't expect bureaucratic hurdles. In my experience, a test run would convince everybody.


Quote:

RogerRabbit said:
Perhaps we can create a gourmet and medicinal archive, like the one in cultivation.  In that, we could have the sections you're asking, and then threads could be moved from here to there to populate the sections, if that would help.



Not really. I would rather leave the current threads unsorted and continue in a new structure. Though, if that archive would hold only the less common species and if people could continue to post in there, it would make sense and should be a manageable amount of sorting, making future sorting obsolete.


Quote:

RogerRabbit said:
I'm also in the process of writing an online textbook of mushroom cultivation, and am about 400 pages deep so far. This covers everything you've asked in the format you're asking for it to be, but now that I'm in the busy season with our farm, it has to wait until the snow returns this winter before I can get back into it.  It's probably two years away from going live, so isn't going to help in the meantime.  But. . .half of all the substrates I make for our mushroom farm are of experimental composition, so I'm compiling a ton of data on what works, what works well, and what doesn't, and this will all be covered in the book.
RR



Wow, I'm looking forward to reading it and seeing all that data.


Carsten


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OfflineRogerRabbitM
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Re: What about some progress here? [Re: Mycelio]
    #14581147 - 06/08/11 06:10 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Oh, I always assumed you were one of the founders of shroomery




Nope, not at all.  In fact, I registered here nearly 5 years after the site went up.  I was active on the usenet group ADM in the 90s, and involved with Mycotopia from the start, until hippie3 and I had a falling out right after my son was wounded in combat in Iraq back in 2003. 

I'm just a moderator, not an administrator, so I don't have the ability to create forums or sub-forums.  I do get to ban folks whenever I'm in a bad mood though, so that helps. :laugh:
RR


--------------------
Download Let's Grow Mushrooms



semper in excretia sumus solim profundum variat

"I've never had a failed experiment.  I've only discovered 10,000 methods which do not work."
Thomas Edison


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OfflinePscientist
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Re: What about some progress here? [Re: RogerRabbit]
    #14581174 - 06/08/11 06:15 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

RogerRabbit said:
I doubt any low-life thieves would bother spending the time uploading something to a torrent site that only costs $5 to begin with.
RR





never doubt or underestimate humans and their dishonesty

thats life lesson # 1 for me :shrug:


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Offlinefungus_tao
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Re: What about some progress here? [Re: Pscientist]
    #14581345 - 06/08/11 07:02 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

A forum is not noticeably much different from being on South main street.


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OfflinePscientist
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Re: What about some progress here? [Re: fungus_tao]
    #14581505 - 06/08/11 07:34 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

fungus_tao said:
A forum is not noticeably much different from being on South main street.





not trying to offend you. I think you are a cool guy, but I have to disagree with you, I believe you are by your giveaways etc , and feel others are, but I have to disagree with you, there are some good people, but I think the internet is quite bad actually, after just learning about the deep internet alone

In fact I think people who aren't normally nefarious perform more nefarious acts on the internet than the actual criminals, although there are plenty of e-criminals as well

just my opinion of course


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Re: What about some progress here? [Re: Mycelio]
    #14581731 - 06/08/11 08:29 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

I'm a little late getting into this :blush: but here is what I think.

This forum is for sure lacking structure. I just don't see a simple and effective way of adding structure to it. The best thing I see happening is an archive subforum like RR mentioned. We can move all of the important threads there but I cant imagine a lot more sub forums being implemented. Making a subforum for each species is excessive in my opinion.

A few of the current stickies here could be condensed into a GMM Faq type thread.

Here is what i imagine being the best way to go about this.

We create an archive subforum where major teks and successful/proven grow logs of difficult/unusual to cultivate species can go. The current GMM forum and the archive subforum would have subcategories(not subforums) for the major genera. The current stickies get condensed into a "FAQ" thread and a "Useful Links" thread. The FAQ will hold the basic newbie information and the Useful Links would link to things like the recipe, morel cult, co-op buy, & research threads.  We create a new thread along the lines of "Threads to move to the archive" where members can request a thread get moved by a mod to the archive.

I think something like that would be the easiest to implement without fragmenting the information too much.


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Re: What about some progress here? [Re: waixingren]
    #14584237 - 06/09/11 08:50 AM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Too bad that your fears of complication won't let you see the simplicity and effectively. BTW an Archive is nothing but a sub forum and its creation also requires assistance of somebody with administrator rights. Good that the wheel was invented before it could be discussed here...

Regarding more sticky threads, I also thought about only one being sticky, acting as table of contents, linking to all sorts of link collections, related to species, explanations, tutorials, working steps, tools and whatever is useful.

Carsten


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Re: What about some progress here? [Re: Mycelio]
    #14589466 - 06/10/11 08:40 AM (12 years, 7 months ago)

I think I have been a bit too rude yesterday. Didn't mean to kill the discussion or to attack you Waixingren!

Perhaps I better keep myself out and you guys keep on discussing and deciding what you want to improve here. I'll see if I can realize my plan elsewhere.

Carsten


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OfflineRogerRabbitM
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Re: What about some progress here? [Re: Mycelio]
    #14589909 - 06/10/11 10:47 AM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Personally, I see no reason to fix what isn't broken.  Mushrooms are mushrooms.  While there's slight differences in growth characteristics between edible species, all have similar requirements.

Most members who come to gourmet and medicinals have already grown cubes, so they know the basics and are just wanting to move on from there.  Separate forums would do little more than make them more lazy by teaching there's no reason to use the search engine here.

I'm not speaking of you Mycelio, because you already know what you're doing, and you'll spend the effort to look for the info you need.  Nothing in life is easy, and to spoon feed the idiots, only serves to re-enforce the notion that it's OK to be lazy.
RR


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Re: What about some progress here? [Re: RogerRabbit]
    #14590689 - 06/10/11 01:46 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

You've got to pay your dues if you wanna sing the blue oysters.


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Re: What about some progress here? [Re: Mycelio]
    #14594119 - 06/11/11 02:24 AM (12 years, 7 months ago)

I didn't take offense Mycelio. Your desire is strong.

This section of the forum has 7,174 threads. that is a very small percent of the traffic to the shroomery. even the grow logs section and the advanced mycology section are in the 6-8k thread range whereas the main cultivation forum has nearly 180,000 threads. Most of the people who come to the shroomery came to learn about cubes, not too many come here just for the gourmet and medicinal section.(though some do)

Im currently set up to show 20 posts per page. If I arrange all the threads in the GMM section by view count I see that the first 10 pages or so are almost all successful growlogs, teks, and informational threads. By page 20 there are about an equal number of question threads and informational threads. After page 50 almost every thread is a question. There are currently 287 pages. That is a lot of newbie questions.

The informational threads are getting the most views and the question threads are getting the least. To me this says the majority of our users aren't using the search function properly and are asking repeat questions because they are not digging deep enough through the results. Maybe we need to have the useful information more clearly available to the users.

Fixing up this section of the site and linking to it may help
http://www.shroomery.org/11327/Gourmet-Mushrooms

Having subforums in a table of contents fashion might not be too bad of an idea after looking at the numbers. I imagine the majority of the subforum threads would be informational/successful threads which will help to minimize the number of question threads for each subforum. The main GMM forum will probably still hold the majority of the newbie questions.


We need more opinions from the regular users of this section. Would reforming the GMM section be convenient for the repeat visitors and the newbies?


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