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OfflineHeffy
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Registered: 08/30/04
Posts: 3,262
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Re: Would you follow a law that makes no sense? [Re: Shins]
    #14538687 - 05/30/11 11:59 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Shins said:
Quote:

the human abstract said:
if im a cop and some guy asks me a question like "what law am i breaking?" im going to get pissed.  if he keeps taunting me that im not doing my job correctly hes getting arrested.




You'd probably look kind of like the guy in your sig too i'd guess.




You clearly haven't seen the entire series of Trailer Park Boys. I pity you.


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I am the king of Rome, and above grammar! - Emperor Sigismund

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InvisibleTherian
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Posts: 684
Re: Would you follow a law that makes no sense? [Re: the human abstract]
    #14538704 - 05/31/11 12:03 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

I can see no reason why the guy hugging the woman was arrested, its ridiculous. Come to Detroit and I can tell you the Negros here will bust out dancing for no reason whatsoever. They will do it in the streets, while waiting for buses, in the aisles of the grocery store, in restaurants, you name it.

As for first amendment rights not being the right to annoy the fuck out of people, it seems to be. I have never once seen someone arrested for annoying another. Just yesterday I was at the store and five aisles down you can hear the typical " Yo Jamal, get me sum mu fucking greeeeen baaans". They will scream, swear,etc. at sporting events, even at high school games with young children around and no one does shit. By comparison what the couple in the video was doing was completely non confrontational. Hell, I wouldn't have even noticed them.
Quote:


if im a cop and some guy asks me a question like "what law am i breaking?" im going to get pissed.



Thats why people such as yourself make douchebag cops. Yeah, why should a cop, explain to the citizens that pay his salary, the ones he is being paid to serve, actually do his job and answer a simple question as to which law they are breaking. If a cop just came up to me and said put your hands behind your back, and I inquired as to which law I had broken, and he didn't respond, I wouldn't do it.

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OfflineF0SS1L
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Registered: 08/29/04
Posts: 2,382
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Re: Would you follow a law that makes no sense? [Re: zappaisgod] * 1
    #14539127 - 05/31/11 03:12 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
You have a child's eye opinion about what the first amendment means.  It is not a license to annoy the fuck out of other people.




Only a child would believe the first amendment protects only the things you want to hear. I'm pretty sure it covers being annoying.


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That's me on the street with a violin under my chin. Playing with a grin, singing gibberish.

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Offlinezappaisgod
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Registered: 02/11/04
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Re: Would you follow a law that makes no sense? [Re: F0SS1L]
    #14539770 - 05/31/11 08:29 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

F0SS1L said:
Quote:

zappaisgod said:
You have a child's eye opinion about what the first amendment means.  It is not a license to annoy the fuck out of other people.




Only a child would believe the first amendment protects only the things you want to hear. I'm pretty sure it covers being annoying.



Not everywhere.  Obviously.  Go to a movie theater and start talking loud shit.  When they tell you to shut the fuck up or get out and you don't comply see what happens.  Obnoxious assholes are obnoxious assholes.


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Invisiblethe human abstract
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Re: Would you follow a law that makes no sense? [Re: zappaisgod]
    #14539781 - 05/31/11 08:31 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

:lol:

i worked in a college cafe i wish we could have kicked some of the nigs out.

they get so loud.


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OfflineHeffy
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Re: Would you follow a law that makes no sense? [Re: zappaisgod]
    #14539911 - 05/31/11 09:31 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Quote:

F0SS1L said:
Quote:

zappaisgod said:
You have a child's eye opinion about what the first amendment means.  It is not a license to annoy the fuck out of other people.




Only a child would believe the first amendment protects only the things you want to hear. I'm pretty sure it covers being annoying.



Not everywhere.  Obviously.  Go to a movie theater and start talking loud shit.  When they tell you to shut the fuck up or get out and you don't comply see what happens.  Obnoxious assholes are obnoxious assholes.




A movie theater is a private business. If they want you to leave, you have to. Being able to stay at the theater requires you to observe the rules of the theater.

Public places are not private businesses.


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I am the king of Rome, and above grammar! - Emperor Sigismund

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Offlinezappaisgod
horrid asshole


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Re: Would you follow a law that makes no sense? [Re: Heffy]
    #14540014 - 05/31/11 10:11 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Heffy said:
Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Quote:

F0SS1L said:
Quote:

zappaisgod said:
You have a child's eye opinion about what the first amendment means.  It is not a license to annoy the fuck out of other people.




Only a child would believe the first amendment protects only the things you want to hear. I'm pretty sure it covers being annoying.



Not everywhere.  Obviously.  Go to a movie theater and start talking loud shit.  When they tell you to shut the fuck up or get out and you don't comply see what happens.  Obnoxious assholes are obnoxious assholes.




A movie theater is a private business. If they want you to leave, you have to. Being able to stay at the theater requires you to observe the rules of the theater.

Public places are not private businesses.




You also can't be a complete asshole in public places.  They have laws for that as well.


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InvisibleIcelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
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Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
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Re: Would you follow a law that makes no sense? [Re: tyler_0_durden]
    #14540029 - 05/31/11 10:16 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

tyler_0_durden said:
Would you obey orders from a police officer, no matter how stupid it is?



^There is a law that prohibits demonstrations in the Jefferson Memorial, but would you call this disturbing the peace? Would you call the officer's actions justified? Would you follow *any* law that the United States passes, no matter how stupid or unjust it may be?

Thoughts on the matter, and feel free to participate in the debate on the comments section of this video.





Most likely yes if the only thing taking a beating is my pride.  I'd safely get it over with and chalk it up to human stupidity which is not only the purview of the authorities. 

Only an idiot would do otherwise imo.  If you disagree you would find most folk on this forum in jail.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Re: Would you follow a law that makes no sense? [Re: Heffy]
    #14540340 - 05/31/11 11:49 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Heffy said:
Public places are not private businesses.




So enter a park. Shout... he's got a gun!

Let us know how that works out.

Or government office building. Shout... I've got a bomb!

Let us know how claiming freedom of speech works for you.

Or... just walk up to some big mean looking guy. Tell him his woman is an ugly skank.

Let us know how many teeth he knocks out.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers

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OfflineSmackshadow
It's Time for Wild Speculation


Registered: 09/27/05
Posts: 575
Last seen: 1 month, 21 days
Re: Would you follow a law that makes no sense? [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #14540810 - 05/31/11 02:10 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

First off, if they weren't breaking any law and otherwise not being a public menace then the police have zero authority to arrest them. 

Second, the fact they were protesting rather then just dancing generally grants heightened protection under the first amendment. 

Third it is true that the first amendment does not grant unlimited protection.  However, the exceptions to the first amendment are narrow and well defined.  The government may limit the exercise of free speech by controlling the forums and mediums used to convey that speech.  However such limitations must be content neutral, not limit the free exchange of ideas, and must be rationally related to a legitimate government interest.  As such, the government probably has the right to limit access to a traditional public forum (like the Jefferson monument) if it can show that the problems that protesting there creates are related to the government's role in maintaining an orderly society. 

However, there is a valid argument that an absolute restriction to a generally public place that prevents protesting at all times does limit the free exchange of ideas.  And although other places may be available to demonstrate, the fact that this particular one is completely off limits might unduly restrict a person's first amendment rights. 

Was the police officers conduct unreasonable, well if in fact the law was unconstitutional then probably as any use of government force to prevent the lawful exercise of ones rights is unreasonable.  If they were not acting lawfully then probably not.  They didn't use deadly force or even "less deadly" force like tazering.  The police gave adequate warnings.

Finally, IMO Washington DC is a fairly crime ridden place.  Lots of violent crime happens on a daily basis.  The police are tasked with prioritizing which crimes they want to actively engage in preventing.  To me it seems like harassing a bunch of protesters, committing a crime or otherwise, should be much lower on their priority list then apparently it is.


--------------------
The trouble with fighting for human freedom is that one spends most of one's time defending scoundrels. For it is against scoundrels that oppressive laws are first aimed, and oppression must be stopped at the beginning if it is to be stopped at all.
     
~H. L. Mencken~

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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Re: Would you follow a law that makes no sense? [Re: Smackshadow]
    #14541023 - 05/31/11 02:51 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Smackshadow said:
First off, if they weren't breaking any law and otherwise not being a public menace then the police have zero authority to arrest them.




As has been pointed out, in this thread and the several others on this same subject, they were indeed breaking the law (albeit a rather stupid one).


Quote:

Second, the fact they were protesting rather then just dancing generally grants heightened protection under the first amendment.




The courts would seem to disagree on your second attempted point. Were it not so, you'd have no need of permits. I don't think their right to protest is in question, merely the setting.


Quote:

Third it is true that the first amendment does not grant unlimited protection.  However, the exceptions to the first amendment are narrow and well defined.  The government may limit the exercise of free speech by controlling the forums and mediums used to convey that speech.  However such limitations must be content neutral, not limit the free exchange of ideas, and must be rationally related to a legitimate government interest.  As such, the government probably has the right to limit access to a traditional public forum (like the Jefferson monument) if it can show that the problems that protesting there creates are related to the government's role in maintaining an orderly society.




My understanding is they were inside. Perhaps they should try outside next time.


Quote:

However, there is a valid argument that an absolute restriction to a generally public place that prevents protesting at all times does limit the free exchange of ideas.  And although other places may be available to demonstrate, the fact that this particular one is completely off limits might unduly restrict a person's first amendment rights.




Nonsense. What they were doing was ruining the experience for others and quite possibly creating a possible safety hazard.


Quote:

Was the police officers conduct unreasonable, well if in fact the law was unconstitutional then probably as any use of government force to prevent the lawful exercise of ones rights is unreasonable.  If they were not acting lawfully then probably not.  They didn't use deadly force or even "less deadly" force like tazering.  The police gave adequate warnings.




A moot point until the courts rule the law unconstitutional.


Quote:

Finally, IMO Washington DC is a fairly crime ridden place.  Lots of violent crime happens on a daily basis.  The police are tasked with prioritizing which crimes they want to actively engage in preventing.  To me it seems like harassing a bunch of protesters, committing a crime or otherwise, should be much lower on their priority list then apparently it is.




I can agree with that.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers

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OfflineSmackshadow
It's Time for Wild Speculation


Registered: 09/27/05
Posts: 575
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Re: Would you follow a law that makes no sense? [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #14541247 - 05/31/11 03:31 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

My first point was to establish that police need the authority to act, the question still remains whether the law is constitutional which later in my post I give differing perspectives.

In fact the law does agree with me on the second point, political speech has historically been granted more protection then non-political speech.  Though it is true that time place manner restrictions can still withstand this greater protection.

I am not sure what your point about being inside vs. outside is, a monument such as the Jefferson memorial is generally held to be a public forum on both the inside and outside grounds.  Much in the same way as a state capital is a public forum.

I don't understand why you would think that they were ruining the experience for anyone.  The police ended up closing the memorial however the individuals in question were merely present and dancing.  I fail to see how dancing would ruin the experience for anyone.  The counter argument is that maybe the people standing around taking pictures were ruining the experience of those dancing.  Both have first amendment rights that should be protected.  Moreover, in a building that has the specific purpose to gather people, I fail to see how the act of actually gathering there and doing something as benign as slow dancing is somehow a safety hazard, all things considered.

Finally, the point is not moot as civil liability can attach to a police officer for denying first amendment right under fed statute 1983 even if the law is presently on the books, but is in fact unconstitutional.  Since civil liability exists to address wrongs and the question is about whether the people dancing were wrong, it seems that the analysis and resolution of such a case would actually be directly on point.


--------------------
The trouble with fighting for human freedom is that one spends most of one's time defending scoundrels. For it is against scoundrels that oppressive laws are first aimed, and oppression must be stopped at the beginning if it is to be stopped at all.
     
~H. L. Mencken~

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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Re: Would you follow a law that makes no sense? [Re: Smackshadow]
    #14541318 - 05/31/11 03:45 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Smackshadow said:
I don't understand why you would think that they were ruining the experience for anyone.  The police ended up closing the memorial however the individuals in question were merely present and dancing.




Well, we disagree.

But you answered the first sentence of the quoted portion of your reply with the second.

The "dancers" were self-centered twits, who cared not how they affected others.

Same as those who block public roads with their protests.

The cops should have tasered and then pepper sprayed them.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers

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OfflineSmackshadow
It's Time for Wild Speculation


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Re: Would you follow a law that makes no sense? [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #14541409 - 05/31/11 04:03 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

If we disagree so be it, but I would like to say one thing about an assertion in your response. 

You said that, "The "dancers" were self-centered twits, who cared not how they affected others."

I would contend that the dancers cared deeply about how their actions affect others.  A person who values the democratic/republic form of government and who values the freedom of expression and right to redress grievances of the government gives value to society as a whole by testing the limits of laws that seek to limit those values.  A person who puts their freedom on the line to defend those values puts the needs of society above their own personal comfort, and although they may have created a modest and short term hindrance of those that were present, they did so on the behalf of a greater good.  That seems to be more selfless then self-centered.  But that is just my opinion.


--------------------
The trouble with fighting for human freedom is that one spends most of one's time defending scoundrels. For it is against scoundrels that oppressive laws are first aimed, and oppression must be stopped at the beginning if it is to be stopped at all.
     
~H. L. Mencken~

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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Re: Would you follow a law that makes no sense? [Re: Smackshadow]
    #14541502 - 05/31/11 04:23 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Smackshadow said:
If we disagree so be it, but I would like to say one thing about an assertion in your response. 

You said that, "The "dancers" were self-centered twits, who cared not how they affected others."

I would contend that the dancers cared deeply about how their actions affect others.  A person who values the democratic/republic form of government and who values the freedom of expression and right to redress grievances of the government gives value to society as a whole by testing the limits of laws that seek to limit those values.  A person who puts their freedom on the line to defend those values puts the needs of society above their own personal comfort, and although they may have created a modest and short term hindrance of those that were present, they did so on the behalf of a greater good.  That seems to be more selfless then self-centered.  But that is just my opinion.




Then they should have done it where there would have been no effect on others. Outside, for example. Might the cops have closed the memorial anyway? Possibly, but I doubt it.

Some people scrimp and save for years to take a vacation. Some of them may never get another chance to visit that monument.

I'd say the freedoms of the thousands that visit that memorial, are far more important than those of the assholes that brought about the police reaction.

They few assholes, ruined the day for many.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers

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OfflineDogDancing
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Re: Would you follow a law that makes no sense? [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #14544049 - 06/01/11 02:02 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

I found that video to be pretty damn funny.  Because those people were obviously dumb twats.  They were warned nicely, then those 2 kept doing it(dancing).  "were moving maaaan.." "were in love" really that's a great defense. Then they go and resist arrest, wow great idea.  All these pricks deserve it in my opinion.

These people were trying to instigate this shit from the beginning.  It was there own fault for the way that it ended.

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InvisibleNot Quite Social
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Registered: 07/16/10
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Loc: Midwest
Re: Would you follow a law that makes no sense? [Re: DogDancing]
    #14553670 - 06/03/11 12:01 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

You also can't be a complete asshole in public places.  They have laws for that as well. - zappaisgod




Quick! Somebody call the cops!


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Invisiblethe human abstract
malaka the werewolf
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Re: Would you follow a law that makes no sense? [Re: DogDancing]
    #14553676 - 06/03/11 12:03 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

DogDancing said:
I found that video to be pretty damn funny.  Because those people were obviously dumb twats.  They were warned nicely, then those 2 kept doing it(dancing).  "were moving maaaan.." "were in love" really that's a great defense. Then they go and resist arrest, wow great idea.  All these pricks deserve it in my opinion.

These people were trying to instigate this shit from the beginning.  It was there own fault for the way that it ended.



no shit

let this thread die.


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InvisibleNot Quite Social
I'm a teapot User Gallery

Registered: 07/16/10
Posts: 1,418
Loc: Midwest
Re: Would you follow a law that makes no sense? [Re: the human abstract]
    #14553766 - 06/03/11 12:27 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Yeah, just let this thread die ...

STOP RESISTING!

That's what cops yell as they kick your ass.  It makes 'em feel all justified.

In this specific case, "Stop Resisting" is shorthand for: "not only were they dancing, they wouldn't stop when I told them nicely to stop; therefore, it's my duty to kick their asses."


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InvisibleNot Quite Social
I'm a teapot User Gallery

Registered: 07/16/10
Posts: 1,418
Loc: Midwest
Re: Would you follow a law that makes no sense? [Re: Not Quite Social]
    #14553800 - 06/03/11 12:38 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Anyway, real cops would have had something better to do, such as park their patrol car on a bike trail in the woods and take a much needed nap (because it's hard to get enough sleep when you're both a full-time cop and moonlighting overnight as a security guard at the 24/7 grocery store).  Real cops wouldn't waste their nap time on some silly-sillies.


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