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Sophistic Radiance
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Re: All drugs should be legalised... debate. [Re: Ferdinando] 1
#14545387 - 06/01/11 11:48 AM (12 years, 8 months ago) |
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I find anarchy theory really interesting... there is always the knee-jerk impulse to say "obviously it won't work," because obviously, it won't - not yet. Should that prohibit us from long-term planning? It may take a very long time, even generations, but the legalistic nation-state paradigm is clearly not sustainable and we have no time to waste planning for its inevitable collapse.
-------------------- Enlil said: You really are the worst kind of person.
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Diploid
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there is always the knee-jerk impulse to say "obviously it won't work,"
It's not a knee-jerk reaction to state that something won't work when that statement is based on some 200,000 years of human history.
Humans are a successful species PRECISELY BECAUSE we exploit every crack in our systems of anti-anarchy to rip each other (and other species) off. It's in our nature. If it weren't, some other species with that in its nature would have driven us extinct by now.
It may take a very long time, even generations
I don't believe there is any evolutionary pressure for that change and so I don't believe humans can ever achieve that. We are doomed to exist in a ruthless world of our own creation even though our intelligence could have created a paradise on Earth by now.
If a benevolent species in an anarchical social system ever comes to rule the Earth, it will not be human. Bonobos maybe have a shot, but not us.
-------------------- Republican Values: 1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you. 2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child. 3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer. 4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
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Sophistic Radiance
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Re: All drugs should be legalised... debate. [Re: Diploid]
#14545473 - 06/01/11 12:15 PM (12 years, 8 months ago) |
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I think that's a very cynical, not to mention selective appraisal.
I'd also like to know where your "history" prior to 10,000 years ago comes from. If you are using examples of prehistoric modern human remains who appeared to have been killed by other modern humans, then you appear to be conflating the idea of "anarchy" with that of "utopia."
Even if you take legalistic culture to be absolutely smothering, you will notice that pockets of resistance and anarchy have always lived behind its curtains. I see it as a dying beast. Its current form relies upon industrial technology that already is far more expensive than it used to be and eventually will be scarcer. I foresee drastic decentralization of authority in the generations to come, and it would be best to come to the power-grab greased up and ready to go. Perhaps most importantly this should involve having a strong theoretical framework to work from.
And THAT'S why I find anarchy theory interesting
-------------------- Enlil said: You really are the worst kind of person.
Edited by Tchan909 (06/01/11 12:33 PM)
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Icelander
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Re: All drugs should be legalised... debate. [Re: Diploid]
#14545481 - 06/01/11 12:19 PM (12 years, 8 months ago) |
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From what I know about bonobos they don't have a shot either. They still fight kick and scream just not as much. They found that really cool way of dealing with a lot of their aggression. Unfortunately we're way too smart for that.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Diploid
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I'd also like to know where your "history" prior to 10,000 years ago comes from. If you are using examples of prehistoric modern human remains who appeared to have been killed by other modern humans, then you appear to be conflating the idea of "anarchy" with that of "utopia."
How so? neo-modern humans didn't live in utopian societies. They lived in anarchical ones. The big ones beat the shit out of the little ones and stole their lunch. Just like CURRENTLY HAPPENS in modern anarchical societies. Witness Somalia.
I foresee drastic decentralization of authority in the generations to come
I see just the opposite. Governments are more and more using technology to centralize control and consolidate power, not the other way around.
-------------------- Republican Values: 1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you. 2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child. 3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer. 4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
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Sophistic Radiance
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Re: All drugs should be legalised... debate. [Re: Diploid]
#14545564 - 06/01/11 12:39 PM (12 years, 8 months ago) |
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I just don't think they can pull it off. I think an attempt to impose a full-blown security state on the continental US would result in civil war. I could be wrong though.
Obviously Somalia is a good example for what to avoid in good anarchist theory.
-------------------- Enlil said: You really are the worst kind of person.
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Icelander
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Re: All drugs should be legalised... debate. [Re: Diploid]
#14545570 - 06/01/11 12:40 PM (12 years, 8 months ago) |
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I foresee drastic decentralization of authority in the generations to come
More like what he would like to see. Well so would I but I've seen no evidence of a move in that direction either. Quite the opposite.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Icelander
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Quote:
Tchan909 said: I just don't think they can pull it off. I think an attempt to impose a full-blown security state on the continental US would result in civil war. I could be wrong though.
Obviously Somalia is a good example for what to avoid in good anarchist theory.
What American's, they're mostly gone imo. In place we have uneducated, obese, ill, sheepies.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Diploid
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I just don't think they can pull it off. I think an attempt to impose a full-blown security state on the continental US would result in civil war.
Not if it's done gradually. We're already on the slippery slope and have been for a few years. Ever heard of the Patriot Act? How about warrantless wiretaps? No knock search warrants? NSA's secret universal wiretap room in ATT's network center?
And probably the most scary of them all, suspension of Habeas corpus.
Hell, just recently we got this gem from the Supreme Court, the very people whose job it is to protect us from it. And the few Americans who bother to keep themselves informed enough to even hear about it just yawned:
Police Allowed To Kick Down Your Door and Search WITHOUT a Warrant
Uneducated, obese, ill, sheepies indeed. We're well on our way to a security state. And that in the U.S., least likely country in the world for it to happen. Meanwhile, China, Saudi Arabia, Iran, North Korea, Cuba and plenty others are already there.
-------------------- Republican Values: 1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you. 2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child. 3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer. 4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
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NetDiver
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Re: All drugs should be legalised... debate. [Re: Diploid]
#14545696 - 06/01/11 01:17 PM (12 years, 8 months ago) |
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Legalizing all drugs seems like a no-brainer to me, as Icelander said. Making drugs illegal doesn't make them go away.
Why should the government have any say at all over what I choose to put in my own damn body?
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don_vedo
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Re: All drugs should be legalised... debate. [Re: Diploid]
#14545716 - 06/01/11 01:22 PM (12 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
Diploid said: Yeah how about you put your money where your mouth is? Set a stack of money out on the sidewalk with a sign telling people to feel free to borrow some but make sure to pay it back by the end of the week.
Let me know how that turns out.
Damn, so your saying that Homeless man who told me he wanted to borrow a grand for a week isn't going to pay me back! Aw shucks! 
Lah'Kesh
-------------------- Our deepest fear is not that we are inadequate. Our deepest fear is that we are powerful beyond measure. We ask ourselves, Who am I to be brilliant, gorgeous, talented, fabulous? Actually, who are you not to be? We were born to make manifest the glory of God that is within us all. And as we let our own light shine, we unconsciously give other people permission to do the same.
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4896744
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Re: All drugs should be legalised... debate. [Re: Icelander]
#14545858 - 06/01/11 01:52 PM (12 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
Icelander said:
Quote:
Icelander said:
Quote:
Tchan909 said: I just don't think they can pull it off. I think an attempt to impose a full-blown security state on the continental US would result in civil war. I could be wrong though.
Obviously Somalia is a good example for what to avoid in good anarchist theory.
What American's, they're mostly gone imo. In place we have uneducated, obese, ill, sheepies.
I think there is definitely a possibility for at least some movement in the right direction with my generation due to the universal access to the internet. It makes it harder to indoctrinate people with a single point of view.
-------------------- Live your Life!
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Icelander
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Re: All drugs should be legalised... debate. [Re: Diploid]
#14545931 - 06/01/11 02:09 PM (12 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
Diploid said: I just don't think they can pull it off. I think an attempt to impose a full-blown security state on the continental US would result in civil war.
Not if it's done gradually. We're already on the slippery slope and have been for a few years. Ever heard of the Patriot Act? How about warrantless wiretaps? No knock search warrants? NSA's secret universal wiretap room in ATT's network center?
And probably the most scary of them all, suspension of Habeas corpus.
Hell, just recently we got this gem from the Supreme Court, the very people whose job it is to protect us from it. And the few Americans who bother to keep themselves informed enough to even hear about it just yawned:
Police Allowed To Kick Down Your Door and Search WITHOUT a Warrant
Uneducated, obese, ill, sheepies indeed. We're well on our way to a security state. And that in the U.S., least likely country in the world for it to happen. Meanwhile, China, Saudi Arabia, Iran, North Korea, Cuba and plenty others are already there.
See only some of us have been alive long enough to see real changes in the direction of loss of freedom in our own lifetime. Most people can't relate to history outside of their own life.
IMO we've already lost our freedom but we're asleep and hardly need it. When we are finally awakened and see what we don't have it will be too late to get any back most likely.
I'm old so I don't really give a rats ass anymore.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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i like cow poo
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Re: All drugs should be legalised... debate. [Re: Icelander]
#14546089 - 06/01/11 02:42 PM (12 years, 8 months ago) |
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Maybe you're talking about America in general. Hell if the government goes ape shit I'll move to Portugal. I think alot of people have a depressed view of the world in general, and they see there views as facts. Alot of people see the bad parts (including me). But hell with the internet you can get free movies, music, and best of all PORN! For anyone who hates America, just move to Brazil where you can easily pay off the police
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Icelander
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Re: All drugs should be legalised... debate. [Re: i like cow poo]
#14546168 - 06/01/11 02:55 PM (12 years, 8 months ago) |
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Most of the world is in the same straights, maybe a tiny bit better or a lot worse. I stick it out in America. I want to be around for the big revolutionaries ball. Could be any time now.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Diploid
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Re: All drugs should be legalised... debate. [Re: i like cow poo]
#14546187 - 06/01/11 02:57 PM (12 years, 8 months ago) |
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You do know that Portugal is not in Brazil, right?
-------------------- Republican Values: 1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you. 2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child. 3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer. 4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
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Icelander
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Re: All drugs should be legalised... debate. [Re: Diploid]
#14546197 - 06/01/11 02:59 PM (12 years, 8 months ago) |
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I'd be in Uruguay if I was heading south.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Diploid
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Re: All drugs should be legalised... debate. [Re: Icelander]
#14546249 - 06/01/11 03:09 PM (12 years, 8 months ago) |
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I might end up in Mexico. My parents built a huge vacation home on the beach north of Merida for about $50,000. The same place here would cost a million. Their nearest neighbor down the beach is a half-mile away. They eat like kings for next to nothing, have two live-in servants who are well paid at $100 / month, and are about an hour from a modern hospital in case something goes wrong.
Every year they spend more and more time down there and less and less here. Eventually they plan on selling the Miami house and staying down there permanently. They've invited me along and the house is plenty big enough.
I may take them up on it when the local phone company puts in DSL capability. That's the only down-side. They barely have voice service currently.
-------------------- Republican Values: 1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you. 2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child. 3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer. 4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
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Cognitive_Shift
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Re: All drugs should be legalised... debate. [Re: Diploid]
#14546269 - 06/01/11 03:12 PM (12 years, 8 months ago) |
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Drugs should be legalized because drugs are a health problem not a criminal problem.
-------------------- L'enfer est plein de bonnes volontés et désirs
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Icelander
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Re: All drugs should be legalised... debate. [Re: Diploid]
#14546295 - 06/01/11 03:18 PM (12 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
Diploid said: I might end up in Mexico. My parents built a huge vacation home on the beach north of Merida for about $50,000. The same place here would cost a million. Their nearest neighbor down the beach is a half-mile away. They eat like kings for next to nothing, have two live-in servants who are well paid at $100 / month, and are about an hour from a modern hospital in case something goes wrong.
Every year they spend more and more time down there and less and less here. Eventually they plan on selling the Miami house and staying down there permanently. They've invited me along and the house is plenty big enough.
I may take them up on it when the local phone company puts in DSL capability. That's the only down-side. They barely have voice service currently.
This might be a good time to offer me lodging in the guest house down there. Just sayin
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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