Home | Community | Message Board

Out-Grow.com - Mushroom Growing Kits & Supplies
This site includes paid links. Please support our sponsors.


Welcome to the Shroomery Message Board! You are experiencing a small sample of what the site has to offer. Please login or register to post messages and view our exclusive members-only content. You'll gain access to additional forums, file attachments, board customizations, encrypted private messages, and much more!

Shop: Myyco.com APE Liquid Culture For Sale   Unfolding Nature Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

Jump to first unread post Pages: 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | Next >  [ show all ]
InvisiblePowdered_Toastman
I'm a teapot User Gallery


Registered: 05/30/11
Posts: 5,901
Loc: Arrakis
Is it impossible to refute solipsism?
    #14542750 - 05/31/11 09:11 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Since solipsism refers to only the self existing and everything else is just part of the mind, does that make it impossible to debunk? This concept seems kind of scary.


--------------------
"I must not fear. Fear is the mind-killer. Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration. I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me. And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path. Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain."

You are God and I am You


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineNetDiver
Wandering Mindfuck


Registered: 08/24/09
Posts: 6,024
Loc: Everywhere and Nowhere
Last seen: 1 year, 7 months
Re: Is it impossible to refute solipsism? [Re: Powdered_Toastman] * 1
    #14542772 - 05/31/11 09:14 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

What is the self, and what is the mind?

Those two questions should be answered before one decides whether solipsism is even a coherent viewpoint.


--------------------

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleHarri

Registered: 10/29/08
Posts: 1,452
Re: Is it impossible to refute solipsism? [Re: NetDiver]
    #14542798 - 05/31/11 09:21 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Is my mind really that powerful to create all of this? and keep it functioning to universes physical law without exceptions?

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineToDieOnMush
Stranger


Registered: 03/12/11
Posts: 35
Last seen: 12 years, 6 months
Re: Is it impossible to refute solipsism? [Re: Powdered_Toastman]
    #14542841 - 05/31/11 09:28 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

:O no idea it had a name..... Man me and my friend have opened so many doors.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineNetDiver
Wandering Mindfuck


Registered: 08/24/09
Posts: 6,024
Loc: Everywhere and Nowhere
Last seen: 1 year, 7 months
Re: Is it impossible to refute solipsism? [Re: Harri]
    #14542874 - 05/31/11 09:33 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Harri said:
Is my mind really that powerful to create all of this? and keep it functioning to universes physical law without exceptions?



The solipsist would say "apparently so."

The question still stands though. What is the self, and what is the mind?


--------------------

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlineevildee125
Here now
Male User Gallery


Registered: 03/23/09
Posts: 3,179
Loc: fl
Last seen: 2 years, 4 months
Re: Is it impossible to refute solipsism? [Re: Powdered_Toastman]
    #14542876 - 05/31/11 09:34 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Powdered_Toastman said:
Since solipsism refers to only the self existing and everything else is just part of the mind, does that make it impossible to debunk? This concept seems kind of scary.



exactll what it seemed like on a high dose of the mush


--------------------
http://www.shroomery.org/forums/banlist.php http://www.shroomery.org/forums/banomatic.php

http://www.shroomery.org/forums/vetstatus.php

Kaleidoscope said:
If you build an idiot-proof device, someone will build a better idiot.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleIcelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Male


Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
Re: Is it impossible to refute solipsism? [Re: NetDiver]
    #14542882 - 05/31/11 09:35 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

In my vast studies I've determined them to likely be emergent properties of my brain.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleRahz
Alive Again
Male

Registered: 11/10/05
Posts: 9,260
Re: Is it impossible to refute solipsism? [Re: Icelander]
    #14543629 - 06/01/11 12:07 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

It is possible that everyone exists in Icelanders brain.


--------------------
rahz

comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace


"You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleIcelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Male


Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
Re: Is it impossible to refute solipsism? [Re: Rahz]
    #14544516 - 06/01/11 06:25 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

That's right, make me do all the work. . :feelsweirdman:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleSophistic Radiance
Free sVs!
Female


Registered: 07/11/06
Posts: 43,135
Loc: Center of the Universe
Re: Is it impossible to refute solipsism? [Re: NetDiver]
    #14545404 - 06/01/11 11:54 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Ontological predispositions are never refutable IME.


--------------------
Enlil said:
You really are the worst kind of person.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleDelicious Apes
Registered: 10/31/08
Posts: 3,642
Re: Is it impossible to refute solipsism? [Re: Powdered_Toastman]
    #14547193 - 06/01/11 06:20 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

No, of course it is completely unproveable. Anybody who says they can prove it has not humbled themselves enough to contemplate the simple origins and boundaries of their small mind.

You obviously didn't create it. But you would be making assumptions, spectacular assumptions to prove you didn't. Language, you, everybody is fucking meaningless and there are no divisions in reality. Can I be sure of that? No. How can I be sure I'm not sure? Don't get ahead of your reason. This is the reason philosophy and human construct is a joke, and you are playing the joker by giving credit to the mind, when there was never a receiver. Aphorism & skepticism.. You're a deluded fuck operating by anything else.

Edited by Delicious Apes (06/01/11 06:27 PM)

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleSophistic Radiance
Free sVs!
Female


Registered: 07/11/06
Posts: 43,135
Loc: Center of the Universe
Re: Is it impossible to refute solipsism? [Re: Delicious Apes]
    #14547234 - 06/01/11 06:28 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

The solipsistic argument would assert that any ignorance on the part of the arguer is due to the densely ramified nature of reality as we know it.

It's obviously bull, but there is no way to disprove it.


--------------------
Enlil said:
You really are the worst kind of person.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offline4896744
Small Town Girl
Female User Gallery

Registered: 03/06/10
Posts: 5,128
Loc: United States
Last seen: 11 years, 9 months
Re: Is it impossible to refute solipsism? [Re: Delicious Apes]
    #14548635 - 06/01/11 11:31 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Delicious Apes said:
No, of course it is completely unproveable. Anybody who says they can prove it has not humbled themselves enough to contemplate the simple origins and boundaries of their small mind.

You obviously didn't create it. But you would be making assumptions, spectacular assumptions to prove you didn't. Language, you, everybody is fucking meaningless and there are no divisions in reality. Can I be sure of that? No. How can I be sure I'm not sure? Don't get ahead of your reason. This is the reason philosophy and human construct is a joke, and you are playing the joker by giving credit to the mind, when there was never a receiver. Aphorism & skepticism.. You're a deluded fuck operating by anything else.




According to your own argument, all of what you just said is bullshit.


--------------------
Live your Life! :heart:

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleIcelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Male


Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
Re: Is it impossible to refute solipsism? [Re: 4896744] * 1
    #14549612 - 06/02/11 06:28 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Right but that's how weird it all is imo.  We really don't know if we know anything.  Fun all around.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offline4896744
Small Town Girl
Female User Gallery

Registered: 03/06/10
Posts: 5,128
Loc: United States
Last seen: 11 years, 9 months
Re: Is it impossible to refute solipsism? [Re: Icelander]
    #14550264 - 06/02/11 10:37 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

I just don't buy into the "all philosophy and human reason is bullshit" bit. I can guarantee that nobody's day to day actions reflect this philosophy whether they believe it or not. I believe that humans are capable of percieving workable models in their environment.


--------------------
Live your Life! :heart:

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleIcelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Male


Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
Re: Is it impossible to refute solipsism? [Re: 4896744]
    #14550306 - 06/02/11 10:53 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

I can guarantee that nobody's day to day actions reflect this philosophy whether they believe it or not.

But it sure is fun to pretend we believe it. :pope:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisiblejohnm214
Male User Gallery
Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 05/31/07
Posts: 17,582
Loc: Americas
Re: Is it impossible to refute solipsism? [Re: Powdered_Toastman]
    #14550899 - 06/02/11 01:16 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Powdered_Toastman said:
Since solipsism refers to only the self existing and everything else is just part of the mind, does that make it impossible to debunk? This concept seems kind of scary.





As a practical matter, this is the kind of philosophical question that is not only worthless but meaningless.  I think a good argument can be made that if a question has two possible answers and neither are any different in their observable consequences, that the question is meaningless because the two choices are no different and therefore there is no grounds upon which to chose, even distinguish, amongst them.  Reflecting on this fact one might be tempted to regard the question, therefore, as somewhat novel, but I think that would be a mistake.

We are always creating abstract models of our world to aid in understanding and making useful predictions, but these are simply metaphors- there are any number of different abstract models that would nevertheless be indistinguishable in their consequences and faithfulness to actual observations- differing only in their ease of use.  It is always this way: science and therefore all of our observations can only reveal the efficient cause of some event- never how things 'really are'.  Just as we simplify the equation f(x)=3x+2-z+z as simply 3x+2 for convenience rather than any difference between the two, so too is our succesful theory just the most useful, simple, model of the world that we can imagine- having nothing neccesarily to do with the way  things 'really are'.

I'm reminded of a neat quote that seems relevant to this discussion:

“It would be as useless to perceive how things 'actually look' as it would be to watch the random dots on untuned television screens”
          -  Marvin Minsky

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineNetDiver
Wandering Mindfuck


Registered: 08/24/09
Posts: 6,024
Loc: Everywhere and Nowhere
Last seen: 1 year, 7 months
Re: Is it impossible to refute solipsism? [Re: johnm214]
    #14551002 - 06/02/11 01:44 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

:whathesaid:

What you'd expect to see if solipsism were true is exactly the same as what you'd expect to see if it weren't. So both solipsism and non-solipsism are impossible to refute, rendering the question meaningless. :shrug:


--------------------

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleSilversoul
Rhizome
Male User Gallery

Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 23,576
Loc: The Barricades
Re: Is it impossible to refute solipsism? [Re: Powdered_Toastman]
    #14552118 - 06/02/11 06:10 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Solipsism can be challenged on the epistemological principle of anti-skepticism.  What I mean by this is that doubt requires just as much justification as belief.  If you doubt that the computer in front of you is real, I'm going to have to ask what justification you have for such doubt.  The fact that it could be an illusion doesn't really make for a very convincing justification.  We don't start from a position of Cartesian doubt.  We start from an embodied existence in the world, with a given set of beliefs and assumptions, and we adjust those beliefs and assumptions when we find them leading to problems.  When they aren't problematic, we have no reason to change them.

I actually find it interesting that both the traditions of Cartesian rationalism and Lockean empiricism led to a kind of solipsism which was ultimately resolved in both cases by pushing those ideas to their logical extreme, through phenomenology in the case of rationalism and pragmatism in the case of empiricism.


--------------------

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleRahz
Alive Again
Male

Registered: 11/10/05
Posts: 9,260
Re: Is it impossible to refute solipsism? [Re: Silversoul]
    #14553749 - 06/03/11 12:24 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Only the self existing is an interesting idea, but nothing I've seen makes me think of it as a real possibility. Perhaps that model comes from the working of the ego. If a person isn't very self aware, they're running on the premise that everyone feels the way they think they feel, will act the way they think they will act, is who they think they are, etc. And that fantastic version of reality is in fact all inside the mind.

To what degree would that account for the average person's perception of reality? To your own?

If the past is any judge, most of what I know about reality is BS. :smile:


--------------------
rahz

comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace


"You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi

Edited by Rahz (06/03/11 12:29 AM)

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Jump to top Pages: 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | Next >  [ show all ]

Shop: Myyco.com APE Liquid Culture For Sale   Unfolding Nature Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order


Similar ThreadsPosterViewsRepliesLast post
* Impossible! Or Maybe Not?
( 1 2 3 4 5 6 all )
DiploidM 7,196 109 03/20/08 08:40 PM
by BlackPeace
* Bunch of solipsists walk into a bar
( 1 2 all )
Penelope_Tree 3,351 20 05/16/12 08:05 AM
by redgreenvines
* Is unconditional love impossible.
( 1 2 3 4 ... 15 16 )
Icelander 17,816 311 07/31/21 11:06 AM
by redgreenvines
* The teachings of John Shelby Spong refuted
( 1 2 all )
fivepointer 4,149 34 05/16/06 11:19 AM
by gnrm23
* Is nothing impossible?
( 1 2 all )
Visionary Tools 1,980 23 05/18/08 08:56 PM
by Boots
* Try This At Home: More Neurological Evidence Refuting The Existence Of A Soul
( 1 2 3 4 5 all )
DiploidM 5,810 92 08/03/05 04:04 PM
by deff
* The new "I can refute it," rule OrgoneConclusion 412 5 01/04/09 09:24 PM
by figmentfragment
* Life without Faith is impossible
( 1 2 3 all )
Moonshoe 6,872 44 03/26/08 09:10 PM
by Boots

Extra information
You cannot start new topics / You cannot reply to topics
HTML is disabled / BBCode is enabled
Moderator: Middleman, DividedQuantum
3,725 topic views. 4 members, 7 guests and 34 web crawlers are browsing this forum.
[ Show Images Only | Sort by Score | Print Topic ]
Search this thread:

Copyright 1997-2024 Mind Media. Some rights reserved.

Generated in 0.027 seconds spending 0.006 seconds on 14 queries.