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OrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group



Registered: 04/01/07
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'You', The Greatest illusion
#14540443 - 05/31/11 12:22 PM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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'You' and 'I' are a collection of imprints, cellular imperatives and reactions. There is no center; no homonculus or soul steering your body through life towards some mystical destination.
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DieCommie

Registered: 12/11/03
Posts: 29,258
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Whew... That is a relief.
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OrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group



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Re: 'You', The Greatest illusion [Re: DieCommie]
#14540465 - 05/31/11 12:30 PM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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--------------------
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery



Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
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Re: 'You', The Greatest illusion [Re: DieCommie]
#14540489 - 05/31/11 12:39 PM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
DieCommie said: Whew... That is a relief.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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OrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group



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Re: 'You', The Greatest illusion [Re: Icelander]
#14540686 - 05/31/11 01:45 PM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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Now that we are free from all responsibility, it's time to party!
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PMATL
Stranger

Registered: 04/22/11
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I think, therefore...
-------------------- It is impossible to convey the life-sensation of any given epoch of one's existence--that which makes its truth, its meaning--its subtle and penetrating essence. It is impossible. We live, as we dream--alone. It's legs to walk and thoughts to fly Eyes that laugh and lips that cry A restless tongue to classify, All born to grow and grown to die
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thissongis
Stranger Danger



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Re: 'You', The Greatest illusion [Re: PMATL]
#14540720 - 05/31/11 01:52 PM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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I isnt
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OrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group



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Re: 'You', The Greatest illusion [Re: PMATL]
#14540748 - 05/31/11 01:58 PM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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When a fine woman walks by and you say, "I think she is hot!" Who is this 'I'? In this case it certainly seems to be nothing more than your biological and cultural programming.
When you say, "I am hungry, cold, tired, horny, etc.," are these not just biological responses that you have in common with every other fully functional human machine?
If a person says "I hate Kikes, Chinks, 'Spics, Honkies, Niggers, etc.", is that not most likely cultural programming being parrotted? If so, who is the 'YOU' that is making this judgment?
--------------------
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Sophistic Radiance
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Re: 'You', The Greatest illusion [Re: thissongis]
#14540759 - 05/31/11 02:01 PM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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But responsibility doesn't have to be thrown out along with the trappings of dualized consciousness. We can acknowledge that any de facto nonexistence of responsibility as an "actual thing" does not necessitate our abandonment of this liminal structure for our lives.
Just the boring 9-5'er take on the affair.
-------------------- Enlil said: You really are the worst kind of person.
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OrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group



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I have yet to meet one person who thought they were evil. Everyone justifies every action. So what exactly is this responsibility of which you speak?
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Sophistic Radiance
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Under this perspective, responsibility is an arbitrarily acquired conglomeration of past experiences. I suppose the extent to which a person is "individual" gives them more "free will" in accepting cultural experiences as one's own, but biologically imprinted habits are far more practical.
-------------------- Enlil said: You really are the worst kind of person.
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xFrockx


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"I have yet to meet one person who thought they were evil. Everyone justifies every action. "
You've never worked in mental health.
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OrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group



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Re: 'You', The Greatest illusion [Re: xFrockx]
#14540836 - 05/31/11 02:16 PM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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No, but I have met many unstable peeps on these boards.
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xFrockx


Registered: 09/17/06
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Takes one to know one right?
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OrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group



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Re: 'You', The Greatest illusion [Re: xFrockx]
#14540853 - 05/31/11 02:18 PM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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That assumption is not borne out by any factual basis.
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Sophistic Radiance
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Re: 'You', The Greatest illusion [Re: xFrockx]
#14540855 - 05/31/11 02:19 PM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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I wish we had an emoticon like this that said "PERSONALISM" instead.
-------------------- Enlil said: You really are the worst kind of person.
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xFrockx


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Shield!
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OrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group



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Re: 'You', The Greatest illusion [Re: xFrockx]
#14540873 - 05/31/11 02:22 PM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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Saddam was responsible for many deaths. Was he good or evil? Bush was responsible for even more deaths. Was he good or evil?
Do you think either one saw themselves as evil?
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xFrockx


Registered: 09/17/06
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"Saddam was responsible for many deaths. Was he good or evil? Bush was responsible for even more deaths. Was he good or evil?
Do you think either one saw themselves as evil? "
The question seems to be of very little consequence. What are you trying to prove?
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4896744
Small Town Girl


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Quote:
OrgoneConclusion said: 'You' and 'I' are a collection of imprints, cellular imperatives and reactions. There is no center; no homonculus or soul steering your body through life towards some mystical destination.

And this collection of physical reactions is what I am. I don't see how these things mean "I" is an illusion. The very fact that there is a concept of "I" shows that there is some material basis behind it. On the other hand, i guess my perception of what i am is quite different from most others'.
-------------------- Live your Life!
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1983
Stranger

Registered: 04/14/11
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Quote:
OrgoneConclusion said: That assumption is not borne out by any factual basis.
Do you read your own posts?
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OrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group



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Re: 'You', The Greatest illusion [Re: 4896744]
#14540913 - 05/31/11 02:29 PM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
And this collection of physical reactions is what I am. I don't see how these things mean "I" is an illusion. The very fact that there is a concept of "I" shows that there is some material basis behind it. On the other hand, i guess my perception of what i am is quite different from most others'.
You hit the nail on the head: a collection of reactions. The illusion part is that there is some center controlling the body. There are a zillion 'centers' each controlling a specific aspect. There is no starship captain in charge or even a well-manned bridge.
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OrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group



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Re: 'You', The Greatest illusion [Re: 1983]
#14540915 - 05/31/11 02:30 PM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
1983 said:
Quote:
OrgoneConclusion said: That assumption is not borne out by any factual basis.
Do you read your own posts?
Why would I want to get a headache?
--------------------
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Sophistic Radiance
Free sVs!


Registered: 07/11/06
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Are you saying the human body functions based upon the principles of decentralized communism?
-------------------- Enlil said: You really are the worst kind of person.
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xFrockx


Registered: 09/17/06
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The idea that there are parts is of the same character as the idea that there are wholes.
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery



Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
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Quote:
OrgoneConclusion said: When a fine woman walks by and you say, "I think she is hot!" Who is this 'I'? In this case it certainly seems to be nothing more than your biological and cultural programming.
When you say, "I am hungry, cold, tired, horny, etc.," are these not just biological responses that you have in common with every other fully functional human machine?
If a person says "I hate Kikes, Chinks, 'Spics, Honkies, Niggers, etc.", is that not most likely cultural programming being parrotted? If so, who is the 'YOU' that is making this judgment?
You must have had a great holiday weekend.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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OrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group



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Re: 'You', The Greatest illusion [Re: Icelander]
#14540951 - 05/31/11 02:35 PM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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Who did? The part that posts stoopid stuff on this forum or the hedonist part or the...
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xFrockx


Registered: 09/17/06
Posts: 10,455
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Just your fingers, they had a great time.
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery



Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
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Quote:
OrgoneConclusion said: Who did? The part that posts stoopid stuff on this forum or the hedonist part or the...
"Who's who?" - xFrockx
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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4896744
Small Town Girl


Registered: 03/06/10
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Quote:
OrgoneConclusion said:
Quote:
And this collection of physical reactions is what I am. I don't see how these things mean "I" is an illusion. The very fact that there is a concept of "I" shows that there is some material basis behind it. On the other hand, i guess my perception of what i am is quite different from most others'.
You hit the nail on the head: a collection of reactions. The illusion part is that there is some center controlling the body. There are a zillion 'centers' each controlling a specific aspect. There is no starship captain in charge or even a well-manned bridge.
Exactly, and this is my basis for claiming their is no free will. At what point would it come into play?
-------------------- Live your Life!
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery



Registered: 03/15/05
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Re: 'You', The Greatest illusion [Re: 4896744]
#14540974 - 05/31/11 02:40 PM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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No free willie!
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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xFrockx


Registered: 09/17/06
Posts: 10,455
Loc: Northeast
Last seen: 12 days, 18 hours
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Re: 'You', The Greatest illusion [Re: 4896744]
#14540991 - 05/31/11 02:44 PM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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"Exactly, and this is my basis for claiming their is no free will. At what point would it come into play? "
I get the question, but how does the claim follow from the question?
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DieCommie

Registered: 12/11/03
Posts: 29,258
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Re: 'You', The Greatest illusion [Re: 4896744]
#14540995 - 05/31/11 02:45 PM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
iThink said: Exactly, and this is my basis for claiming their is no free will. At what point would it come into play?
At the point where the zillions of reaction become sufficiently complex and structured as to have a causal effect down the scale of size rather than up it like we generally assume is the case.
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4896744
Small Town Girl


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Re: 'You', The Greatest illusion [Re: DieCommie]
#14541029 - 05/31/11 02:51 PM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
DieCommie said:
Quote:
iThink said: Exactly, and this is my basis for claiming their is no free will. At what point would it come into play?
At the point where the zillions of reaction become sufficiently complex and structured as to have a causal effect down the scale of size rather than up it like we generally assume is the case.
What evidence do you have for this being the case?
-------------------- Live your Life!
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DieCommie

Registered: 12/11/03
Posts: 29,258
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Re: 'You', The Greatest illusion [Re: 4896744]
#14541037 - 05/31/11 02:53 PM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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None. Im just answering your question, if it were to exist that is where it would come into play. (And in a sense, I am rejecting your substantiation while not rejecting your claim.)
(Note the dubious nature of our assumed upward causation as context for not dismissing downward causation outright.)
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4896744
Small Town Girl


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Re: 'You', The Greatest illusion [Re: DieCommie]
#14541091 - 05/31/11 03:02 PM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
DieCommie said: None. Im just answering your question, if it were to exist that is where it would come into play. (And in a sense, I am rejecting your substantiation while not rejecting your claim.)
(Note the dubious nature of our assumed upward causation as context for not dismissing downward causation outright.)
I see, i guess i agree that is where it would come in if it existed, but i have yet to see any evidence for this being the case.
-------------------- Live your Life!
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DieCommie

Registered: 12/11/03
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Re: 'You', The Greatest illusion [Re: 4896744]
#14541106 - 05/31/11 03:06 PM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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Let me know when you see strong evidence for any type of causation, downwards or upwards. 
(The best evidence against downward causation, I believe, it the mere fact that modeling phenomenon with upward causation has been so wildly successful and has such a great track record.)
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4896744
Small Town Girl


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Re: 'You', The Greatest illusion [Re: DieCommie]
#14541164 - 05/31/11 03:15 PM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
DieCommie said: Let me know when you see strong evidence for any type of causation, downwards or upwards. 
(The best evidence against downward causation, I believe, it the mere fact that modeling phenomenon with upward causation has been so wildly successful and has such a great track record.)
Isn't upward causation the only type of causation that has been observed? If so, why should we assume that this would change at one point? I find it dubious that the only suggested reversal in the direction of causation would take place at our level. I feel that we are allowing our egos to become too involved.
-------------------- Live your Life!
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falcon


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Quote:
OrgoneConclusion said: No, but I have met many unstable peeps on these boards.
you've refuted the claim of your initial post
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OrgoneConclusion
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Re: 'You', The Greatest illusion [Re: falcon]
#14541210 - 05/31/11 03:25 PM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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'I' am the only one capable of such a feat; sort of like God moving an immovable object.
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falcon


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by doing so you've admitted that some unstable peeps that post here have youhood
Edited by falcon (05/31/11 03:30 PM)
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4896744
Small Town Girl


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Re: 'You', The Greatest illusion [Re: falcon]
#14541249 - 05/31/11 03:32 PM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
falcon said:
Quote:
OrgoneConclusion said: No, but I have met many unstable peeps on these boards.
you've refuted the claim of your initial post 
Language can often cause you to be seemingly inconsistent with your philosophy. I made a poorly constructed thread on this a few days ago.
-------------------- Live your Life!
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Sophistic Radiance
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Re: 'You', The Greatest illusion [Re: 4896744]
#14541281 - 05/31/11 03:39 PM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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This is true. I would imagine it's because we construct our language in order to be comprehensible by other people, whom we often suspect of not following or understanding our own philosophies.
-------------------- Enlil said: You really are the worst kind of person.
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DieCommie

Registered: 12/11/03
Posts: 29,258
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Re: 'You', The Greatest illusion [Re: 4896744]
#14541329 - 05/31/11 03:48 PM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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.
Edited by DieCommie (11/11/16 09:53 AM)
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4896744
Small Town Girl


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I think the evolution of language is much more complex than that.
-------------------- Live your Life!
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Sophistic Radiance
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Re: 'You', The Greatest illusion [Re: 4896744]
#14541352 - 05/31/11 03:53 PM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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Did I ever claim to be summing up the evolution of language with that statement?
-------------------- Enlil said: You really are the worst kind of person.
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Sophistic Radiance
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Re: 'You', The Greatest illusion [Re: DieCommie]
#14541362 - 05/31/11 03:54 PM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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And that's an interesting article DC. I love outside-the-box thinking like that.
-------------------- Enlil said: You really are the worst kind of person.
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4896744
Small Town Girl


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Quote:
Tchan909 said: Did I ever claim to be summing up the evolution of language with that statement?
You never said anything to imply that you thought your description was incomplete, so in a sense, yes you did.
-------------------- Live your Life!
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DieCommie

Registered: 12/11/03
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The author is a physics professor where I did my undergrad. Hes a big wig that doesn't teach, just gets other big wig scientists together to do lots of outside-the-box thinking. I like his stuff, and his institute but I have lots of cynicism towards them as well.
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Sophistic Radiance
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Re: 'You', The Greatest illusion [Re: 4896744]
#14541386 - 05/31/11 03:59 PM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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I said, "I would imagine," which should imply that it is a spontaneous observation and not a complete theory.
-------------------- Enlil said: You really are the worst kind of person.
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The Phleg
Big Dick Chakra




Registered: 03/07/10
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Quote:
OrgoneConclusion said: 'You' and 'I' are a collection of imprints, cellular imperatives and reactions. There is no center; no homonculus or soul steering your body through life towards some mystical destination.

Why do "I" have 1st person view from this sack of chemicals?
It seems that this body is a prison, limiting my perspective.
-------------------- You wanna get high? Drink tap water. --------------------
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xFrockx


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Re: 'You', The Greatest illusion [Re: The Phleg]
#14541404 - 05/31/11 04:02 PM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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"It seems that this body is a prison, limiting my perspective. "
What's limited about it?
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4896744
Small Town Girl


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Quote:
Tchan909 said: I said, "I would imagine," which should imply that it is a spontaneous observation and not a complete theory.
You asked me if you claimed to be summing up the evolution of language, not if you came up with it spontaneously. Spontaneous isn't mutually exclusive from completeness.
-------------------- Live your Life!
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NetDiver
Wandering Mindfuck


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Quote:
OrgoneConclusion said: 'You' and 'I' are a collection of imprints, cellular imperatives and reactions. There is no center; no homonculus or soul steering your body through life towards some mystical destination.

All of my pseudo-intellectual philoso-bullshit ramblings are based on this premise.
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The Phleg
Big Dick Chakra




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Re: 'You', The Greatest illusion [Re: xFrockx]
#14541433 - 05/31/11 04:07 PM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
xFrockx said: "It seems that this body is a prison, limiting my perspective. "
What's limited about it?
I'm stuck in first person. I don't know what's behind me.
-------------------- You wanna get high? Drink tap water. --------------------
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Sophistic Radiance
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Re: 'You', The Greatest illusion [Re: 4896744]
#14541434 - 05/31/11 04:08 PM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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Language sucks!
-------------------- Enlil said: You really are the worst kind of person.
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xFrockx


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Re: 'You', The Greatest illusion [Re: The Phleg]
#14541440 - 05/31/11 04:10 PM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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What's to know about what is behind you? How would it help anything?
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The Phleg
Big Dick Chakra




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Re: 'You', The Greatest illusion [Re: xFrockx]
#14541639 - 05/31/11 04:48 PM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
xFrockx said: What's to know about what is behind you? How would it help anything?
What's to know about what is in front of me? Not sure if it helps with anything.
-------------------- You wanna get high? Drink tap water. --------------------
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xFrockx


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Re: 'You', The Greatest illusion [Re: The Phleg]
#14541656 - 05/31/11 04:53 PM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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What is there to help?
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