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InvisiblePrisoner#1
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Re: Will dancing at memorials be legalized in our lifetime? [Re: GuruBushHippie]
    #14539726 - 05/31/11 08:12 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

GuruBushHippie said:

I know it was a protest, no need to be a smartass. you know what i'm getting at, i should be able to do as i please as long as it doesn't harm anyone. Dance, protest, mime, whatever.





what about your potential to cause harm, should you be able to drive 90mph
through school zones as school is letting out for the day? should you be
allowed to disrupt the enjoyment of the day for others, I see that as
doing harm, if my kids and myself cannot enjoy our outting to the
jefferson memorial because some self centered egotistical attention
whoring twat decides he wants put on a show for the cameras then he's
disrupted my time with my family and in fact done harm especially when
we're all ejected so the cops can make their arrests and not have to worry
about the potentially dangerous crowd as can be seen by the guy in the
brown shirt doing all he can to obstruct the cop in making an arrest


Quote:

Secondly, you have a mere piece of paper that someone gave you after they suckered you into buying something that they didn't ever own either




as I said, tell me how I dont own my land, I paid for it, I can sell it, I
can pass it on to my heirs, just as I can anything else I own

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OfflineDrGreenThumb865
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Re: Will dancing at memorials be legalized in our lifetime? [Re: Prisoner#1]
    #14539923 - 05/31/11 09:35 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Prisoner#1 said:
dancing and protesting arent rights if you get right down to it



"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances."

That's the first amendment... they have the right to peaceably assemble, (which is what they were doing.)

They also have the right to freedom of speech, which is defined by the ICCPR as:

The right to freedom of speech is recognized as a human right under Article 19 of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights and recognized in international human rights law in the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights (ICCPR). The ICCPR recognizes the right to freedom of speech as "the right to hold opinions without interference. Everyone shall have the right to freedom of expression."

So when you do get right down to it, they had the right to do what they were doing according to the freedom of assembly and freedom of speech (AKA freedom of expression)


--------------------
:mushdance:



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OfflinePhantomPower
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Re: Will dancing at memorials be legalized in our lifetime? [Re: memes]
    #14539962 - 05/31/11 09:51 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

meams said:
Quote:

PhantomPower said:
rights of one outweigh the rights of many?




I don't think that "not being annoyed" is any sort of right at all.



So my band can come play a show at your neighbors house outside until 4am?  Becuase noise ordinances are put into place for the same reason as anti-protest laws:  if you want to be annoying, sign up for a permit so people can make themselves aware of your pending annoyance and leave if they so choose.

No permit = no protest = no dancing = no legal ignoring cops = arrest = this thread is dumb = pris is smart




Personally, I've never had such shitty neighbors that I wouldn't have been able to sort that out with them directly.  And I've never not quieted down when asked.  I don't think that I can send people with guns over on my behalf to quiet the neighbors down, though.  And if they're making a bunch of noise, them having a permit doesn't mean it annoys me less anyway.


--------------------


When the going gets tough, I get high.

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InvisiblePrisoner#1
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Re: Will dancing at memorials be legalized in our lifetime? [Re: DrGreenThumb865]
    #14539967 - 05/31/11 09:53 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

DrGreenThumb865 said:
Quote:

Prisoner#1 said:
dancing and protesting arent rights if you get right down to it



"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances."

That's the first amendment... they have the right to peaceably assemble, (which is what they were doing.)




nope, they were protesting and protesting isnt mentioned in the
constitution or the bill of rights

Quote:

They also have the right to freedom of speech, which is defined by the ICCPR as:

The right to freedom of speech is recognized as a human right under Article 19 of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights and recognized in international human rights law in the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights (ICCPR). The ICCPR recognizes the right to freedom of speech as "the right to hold opinions without interference. Everyone shall have the right to freedom of expression."




this is america, not the intercontinental, international, universal or
what ever other organization, we're governed under the constitution

Quote:

So when you do get right down to it, they had the right to do what they were doing according to the freedom of assembly and freedom of speech (AKA freedom of expression)




the problem is that the court ruling passed down a short time before
states that they cannot hold their demonstration INSIDE the building,
outside would have been fine and it wouldnt have been an issue but they
wanted to protest INSIDE, their freedom of speech and right to assemble
isnt being restricted, only the place they were wishing to do so, if that
were not protected then they could hold their demonstration in your living
room without your permission

also... permits for protests were not secured, yet another law they'd broken

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OfflinePhantomPower
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Re: Will dancing at memorials be legalized in our lifetime? [Re: Prisoner#1] * 1
    #14539984 - 05/31/11 10:01 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Prisoner#1 said:
Quote:

PhantomPower said:
Quote:

Prisoner#1 said:
Quote:

PhantomPower said:
  Parts of your posts are clearly a level headed acceptance of reality.  But do restrictive laws against being annoying (basically) bother you?  Just a little?





do the rights of one outweigh the rights of many?




I don't think that "not being annoyed" is any sort of right at all.





dancing and protesting arent rights if you get right down to it




Alright.  I just wanted to make sure how deep an impasse we were at on this.  On "the way things ought to be" we won't see eye to eye.  On "the way things are" I very much agree with an awful lot of what you've said.  I also don't think you've come out and said this, but one of your posts implied that the first might not apply here if this were a D, C local bylaw or something.  So the first amendment thing might go out the window if the law were not enacted by Congress.

If I might go into full blown fantasy mode, there really shouldn't be a government built and run monument to Jefferson to begin with.  If there was so much demand for such a thing, somebody ought to have built one and taken donations/charged admission.  Then it would just be a property owner ejecting rowdy patrons, rather than citizens at a publicly owned attraction.


--------------------


When the going gets tough, I get high.

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OfflineDrGreenThumb865
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Re: Will dancing at memorials be legalized in our lifetime? [Re: Prisoner#1]
    #14539985 - 05/31/11 10:02 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Prisoner#1 said:
Quote:

DrGreenThumb865 said:
Quote:

They also have the right to freedom of speech, which is defined by the ICCPR as:

The right to freedom of speech is recognized as a human right under Article 19 of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights and recognized in international human rights law in the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights (ICCPR). The ICCPR recognizes the right to freedom of speech as "the right to hold opinions without interference. Everyone shall have the right to freedom of expression."




this is america, not the intercontinental, international, universal or
what ever other organization, we're governed under the constitution





The International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights (ICCPR) is a multilateral treaty adopted by the United Nations General Assembly on December 16, 1966, and in force from March 23, 1976. It commits its parties to respect the civil and political rights of individuals, including the right to life, freedom of religion, freedom of speech, freedom of assembly, electoral rights and rights to due process and a fair trial. As of December 2010, the Covenant had 72 signatories and 167 parties.[1]
The ICCPR is part of the International Bill of Human Rights, along with the International Covenant on Economic, Social and Cultural Rights.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Covenant_on_Civil_and_Political_Rights

And yes, this applies to the United States.


--------------------
:mushdance:



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InvisibleDeepSpace9
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Re: Will dancing at memorials be legalized in our lifetime? [Re: Prisoner#1]
    #14540001 - 05/31/11 10:09 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Err FYI that isnt public property, its federal property.

Also, a judge in DC ruled the dancers would need protest permits to gather in a large group in public in the capitol, as every other large group has been required to do in DC for over 40 years. This isnt new in DC, when they added the dance crowds those idiots went there to protest and got what they deserved. So, do any of the 50 states in America have this law? Not sure but I doubt it. It is a security issue for the capitol. Its to prevent 200 people from just showing up to one place when ever they want. With no crowd control, no security or anything. It isnt just about those dancers. Those cops are doing just as much to protect the peoples rights who are there that dont want to have to deal with that shit. If you dont like it stay the hell out of DC. I doubt anyone on this thread even lives in DC, maybe close but VA and MD dont have laws like this. Its a common sense issue more than constitutional rights issue. They have just as much a right to form a large crowd and dance where ever they want as those sick fuckers from westboro have to show up at veterans funerals to protest. They know what they are doing and are willing to suffer the consequences. I mean if I were at a vets funeral and saw that crap, I would assault someone, go to jail, and not bitch about it, just like the person assulted shouldn't bitch about it because it was a potential risk of being a DB.

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Invisiblememes
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Re: Will dancing at memorials be legalized in our lifetime? [Re: DeepSpace9]
    #14540048 - 05/31/11 10:21 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

This thread makes me loller.  Some shroomerites never cease to amaze me

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OfflineGuruBushHippie
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Re: Will dancing at memorials be legalized in our lifetime? [Re: DeepSpace9]
    #14540058 - 05/31/11 10:26 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Idk any other way to put it. It may not be the proof you're after but I've yet to hear any proof from you that you do indeed own land. saying that a deed is proof is just as ludacris as saying that one will go to Hell bc the bible says so. Also, are you saying I truly don't have the right to dance or protest?


--------------------
Two roads diverged in a wood, and I cut straight through the forest, and that has made all the difference.

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InvisiblePrisoner#1
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Re: Will dancing at memorials be legalized in our lifetime? [Re: DrGreenThumb865]
    #14540092 - 05/31/11 10:36 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

DrGreenThumb865 said:

The ICCPR is part of the International Bill of Human Rights, along with the International Covenant on Economic, Social and Cultural Rights.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Covenant_on_Civil_and_Political_Rights

And yes, this applies to the United States.





think again
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Covenant_on_Civil_and_Political_Rights#United_States

Quote:

The United States Senate ratified the ICCPR in 1992, with five reservations, five understandings, and four declarations.[64] Some have noted that with so many reservations, its implementation has little domestic effect.[72] Included in the Senate's ratification was the declaration that "the provisions of Article 1 through 27 of the Covenant are not self-executing",[73] and in a Senate Executive Report stated that the declaration was meant to "clarify that the Covenant will not create a private cause of action in U.S. Courts."[74]
[edit] Effect on domestic law

Where a treaty or covenant is not self-executing, and where Congress has not acted to implement the agreement with legislation], no private right of action within the U.S. judicial system is created by ratification. Sei Fujii v. State 38 Cal.2d 718, 242 P.2d 617 (1952); also see Buell v. Mitchell 274 F.3d 337 (6th Cir., 2001) (discussing ICCPR's relationship to death penalty cases, citing to other ICCPR cases). Thus while the ICCPR is ostensibly binding upon the United States as a matter of international law, it does not form part of the domestic law of the nation.




here's a little definition for ya

os·ten·si·bly/äˈstensiblē/
Adverb: Apparently or purportedly, but perhaps not actually: "portrayed as a blue-collar type, ostensibly a carpenter"

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InvisiblePrisoner#1
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Re: Will dancing at memorials be legalized in our lifetime? [Re: GuruBushHippie]
    #14540101 - 05/31/11 10:39 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

GuruBushHippie said:
Idk any other way to put it. It may not be the proof you're after but I've yet to hear any proof from you that you do indeed own land. saying that a deed is proof is just as ludacris as saying that one will go to Hell bc the bible says so. Also, are you saying I truly don't have the right to dance or protest?





I didnt make som ludicrous claim and as I'd already stated, I have a deed
showing that I do in fact own land, it's recognized by county, city,  state
and federal government agencies as well as the court systems, insurance
carriers, etc...

now sine you made the ludicrous claim that there is no land ownership the
burden of proof falls on you to back the claim that there is no land ownership

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OfflineDrGreenThumb865
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Re: Will dancing at memorials be legalized in our lifetime? [Re: Prisoner#1]
    #14540109 - 05/31/11 10:42 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

+ Respect  :thumbup:

Guess I should have read a little more into it... Nice debate either way.


--------------------
:mushdance:



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InvisiblePrisoner#1
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Re: Will dancing at memorials be legalized in our lifetime? [Re: DrGreenThumb865]
    #14540122 - 05/31/11 10:47 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

at least you're sensible with debate, most make a bunch of insane claims like
no land ownership and then just you the 'because I said so' approach to
backing the claims, you go the extra mile and at least search for the proof

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Invisiblethe human abstract
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Re: Will dancing at memorials be legalized in our lifetime? [Re: DrGreenThumb865]
    #14540131 - 05/31/11 10:49 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

lol nice victory.

cops find crime and help prosecution in court.  why is it always the same "ahhh the cops beat me up :cry: and everyone of them has a bad shoulder?


--------------------
★★

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InvisiblePrisoner#1
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Re: Will dancing at memorials be legalized in our lifetime? [Re: the human abstract]
    #14540157 - 05/31/11 10:55 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

I have a bad shoulder

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InvisiblePrisoner#1
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Re: Will dancing at memorials be legalized in our lifetime? [Re: Prisoner#1]
    #14540159 - 05/31/11 10:56 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

hey, you're just saying that!

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OfflineGuruBushHippie
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Re: Will dancing at memorials be legalized in our lifetime? [Re: Prisoner#1]
    #14540214 - 05/31/11 11:10 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

I'm presenting a long-debated philosophical notion, not an inherent truth; just as you are doing. Your deed to land is recognized by the same government that claims the right to plow through it and build a road through your living room if they so choose. You bought it, and you can sell it, but what you cannot do is pick it up and take it anywhere else with you. That, at least to me, defines ownership. Im not the only one who has made these "ludacris claims," don't forget about the whole race of people that Andrew Jackson fucked over. They beleived the exact same ludacris claims. Just because it's not a white european idea doesnt mean it's not worth a damn.
Quote:

Prisoner#1 said:
at least you're sensible with debate, most make a bunch of insane claims like
no land ownership and then just you the 'because I said so' approach to
backing the claims, you go the extra mile and at least search for the proof



What you got against me guy? Im no more insane than anyone else here and neither are my claims. I have the right to speak my mind on the issue. i tried that once already remember? it was the post that you locked.


--------------------
Two roads diverged in a wood, and I cut straight through the forest, and that has made all the difference.

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InvisiblePrisoner#1
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Re: Will dancing at memorials be legalized in our lifetime? [Re: GuruBushHippie]
    #14540257 - 05/31/11 11:21 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

GuruBushHippie said:
I'm presenting a long-debated philosophical notion, not an inherent truth





I see, so you've made a ludicrous claim that there is no land ownership and your reasoning is "because I said so"



Quote:

What you got against me guy? Im no more insane than anyone else here and neither are my claims. I have the right to speak my mind on the issue. i tried that once already remember? it was the post that you locked.




I have nothing against you, I havent the slightest clue as to who you are
and I've not stopped you from speaking your mind here, I've simply
disputed some of what you've said, do you not believe I also have the
right to speak my mind or is freedom of speech only reserved for those
that agree with you?

anything of yours that I've locked or deleted were because of a rules
violation, I dont know what thread or post you're referring to off the top
of my head and nothing I can see in the posts you;ve made are showing as
me having locked it

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OfflinePhantomPower
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Re: Will dancing at memorials be legalized in our lifetime? [Re: DeepSpace9]
    #14540278 - 05/31/11 11:28 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

DeepSpace9 said:
Err FYI that isnt public property, its federal property.






Maybe I missed it earlier in the thread, or it's just a dumb question, if so I'm sorry: Do you know who can be said to hold control over federal property?  Or how decisions on its use get made?  This distinction might be more interesting than I thought.


--------------------


When the going gets tough, I get high.

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OfflineGuruBushHippie
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Re: Will dancing at memorials be legalized in our lifetime? [Re: Prisoner#1]
    #14540291 - 05/31/11 11:32 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

It's a philosophical idea, not a hypothesis. I've given you a logical reason for why i think so (you cant pick up land and take it with you.) You're climing land ownership bc the folks on capitol hill told you you own it. That may be real ownership to you or to anyone else, and it works well for the way we have set up out civilization, but then again I think Rome started out that way too. I personally think i should be able to roam nomadically and live wherever i please following the resources around the land. I cant do that though, because i gotta pay some guy first and i don't think that's justified at all.


--------------------
Two roads diverged in a wood, and I cut straight through the forest, and that has made all the difference.

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