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OfflineJordan Black
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Near Death Experiences, subjective immortality and the essential goodness of life
    #14536447 - 05/30/11 03:08 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)



A large number of people experience, during death or at the time of dying, vivid experiences known as NDEs. These experiences very often include intense feelings of bliss, the experience of being greeted by loved ones, comforted, ushered towards a beautiful light, and a meaningful and healing life-review experience, as well as religious or spiritual figures such as jesus, mother mary, ganesh etc.

Now, it is often said that this does not prove that life after death exists because these experiences could still be phenomenon of the last vestiges of brain activity which can go on for a few moments after "death".

Now, a few thoughts come to mind.

Many people who have these experiences say they go on for a long time, seemingly hours or days. The only way this could happen within the time frame of the last moments of brain activity would be if a dramatic time dilation effect occurred.

In other words, the subjective experience of these people dilates or expands in such a way that for example a Minute feels like an hour or an hour like a day.

This raises a few questions. 1. If time dilation can stretch out the last seconds of brain activity to hours or days or beyond, is that not in effect a form of life after death? Even if it only seems to last for say, one day, this is still a day of post-life experience that may be completely sufficient to ease our fear, heal our regrets, and make us accept death without suffering.

The near-death experience is, in this view, essentially a whole new stage of existence. It may not be eternal, but it is something, and in a sense it is a form of life after death, in the sense that subjectively your consciousness continues AFTER the people in the living world have observed you to die.

There is in effect a gap, a disconnect or a lapse between your death in the physical world and your subjective experience of consciousness. It is as if you now live, for some period of time, in your own private reality. In this reality you are still alive because you are still experiencing a conscious NDE, but in the "real/living/consensus world" you are already dead, even your brain activity has stopped.

If your brain activity continues for two minutes, and your subjective NDE lasts for 3, then you had one Minute of life after death.

Also, dreaming, DMT and other psychedelics as well as NDEs themselves suggest that the time dilation effect can be much more dramatic than mere minutes. Some report 5 Minute DMT trips that subjectively last for days, months, years, even lifetimes or eternities.

It is supposed that DMT is released in the brain during near death experiences. If DMT during an NDE created the subjective experience of living a whole new life, this would effectively be an experience of reincarnation.

If near death dmt triggered a timeless experience of bliss, this would in effect be the experience of a post-death heaven.

If a few minutes of near-death brain activity can subjectively stretch out indefinitely, than a valid, perceptually real life-after-death could in fact, in some cases at least, be contained within those few moments.

Imagine that your conscious life is defined as a circle drawn on a page, and you are represented by a dot in the centre of that circle.

As you move toward the instant of total brain death, imagine the dot moving towards the periphery of the circle. The closer it gets, the closer it is to total extinction. Suppose that beyond the perimeter of the circle nothing exists or can exist.

But if at the moment of death DMT or some other factor causes a dilation of subjective time, it is as though the circle is expanded. As the circle expands the distance between the dot and the periphery gets longer.

If the rate of time dilation (the expansion of the circle) exceeds the rate of the consciousness as it moves through perceptual time towards oblivion, than the actual moment of extinction MIGHT never actually come from the subjective experience of the one who is dying.

Even if it does, who knows how long the near-death state may be stretched out?

Another interesting question arises. Even if the near death experience is short and leads to total extinction eventually, what does the very existence of such a transitional state of consciousness tell us about the nature of life?

From an evolutionary perspective an NDE makes no sense. By associating death with blissful spiritual experiences, they would seem maladaptive as any individual who was aware of them (might) lose fear of death or even commit suicide.

Even if there was no detrimental effect, there is no reason why an NDE trait would be evolved because by definition the NDE occurs after all chances for reproduction have passed.

The only function of the NDE seems to be to prepare the person for the transition to death, to ease their fear and sadness, and to review their life in a way that makes sense of their existence.

How can we explain the occurrence of such a gratuitously wonderful thing? Why should such a marvelous and healing experience happen at all?

It stretches the boundaries of credulity and evokes a feeling of wonder. Not only do we inhabit incredible bodies with remarkable minds in a beautiful world full of abundant resources, pleasures and experiences, but when we die we are given a healing, blissful experience to ease us through the transition.

Granted, this is not evidence of a creator spirit or proof that at its root life is ultimately "good".

But it does give us pause to think, it gives us something at least to look forward to as we contemplate death, and it suggests a world that may not be quite so meaningless or hopeless as it sometimes appears.

As someone who has personally experienced a lucid dream that seemed to go on for nearly 24 hours but in waking life was only maybe ten minutes, I can attest to the reality of time dilation under certain neuro-chemical conditions. If those conditions are replicated or exceeded during an NDE, the possibility that a real afterlife could occur DURING brain death is a distinct possibility within the limits of chemical/scientific plausibility.

And the possibility that when the NDE ends we transition into a state of total timeless clear light that is subjectively eternal is also possible.


Edited by Jordan Black (05/30/11 03:16 PM)


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OfflineMushroomTrip
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Re: Near Death Experiences, subjective immortality and the essential goodness of life [Re: Jordan Black]
    #14536512 - 05/30/11 03:20 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Imagine a river whose water goes upstream each time we're not looking, so that each time we're looking, it basically flows the same water. Maybe there's just a bit of water on this planet, but it moves so fast that it makes it seem like it's everywhere.  :wowz:


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs

:bunnyhug: :yinyang2:


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Offlinefungivore
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Re: Near Death Experiences, subjective immortality and the essential goodness of life [Re: Jordan Black]
    #14536562 - 05/30/11 03:33 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

I very much like this!
I have always believed that that the theory of us having nothing after death or that death is the ultimate end is such a closed-minded way of thinking. There is no evidence that our awareness ends at death, just like there is no evidence of a Creator. So, that way of thinking is a sort of religion in itself; in that it has no evidence and requires faith.

I choose to believe that death is not the end; that there is a Creator, or maybe even more than one, and I tend to lean towards the strong possibility that we may be reincarnated, but I really do not understand what IT is all about.

I understand that some people want to know the science behind something before they believe in it, but the science of our reality is very, very DEEP, and we have barely scratched the surface. Just because our "modern science" cannot prove something means absolutely nothing.

I think the points you have made are interesting and thought provoking; keep it up!


--------------------
"His job is to shed light
And not to master."


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OfflineMushroomTrip
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Re: Near Death Experiences, subjective immortality and the essential goodness of life [Re: fungivore]
    #14536582 - 05/30/11 03:41 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

I understand that some people want to know the science behind something before they believe in it, but the science of our reality is very, very DEEP, and we have barely scratched the surface. Just because our "modern science" cannot prove something means absolutely nothing.





How the hell should you know at what level scientific findings are right now, since you never did any research on it? Stop finding pathetic excuses for laziness. :nono:


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs

:bunnyhug: :yinyang2:


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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: Near Death Experiences, subjective immortality and the essential goodness of life [Re: Jordan Black]
    #14536598 - 05/30/11 03:46 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

These experiences very often include intense feelings of bliss, the experience of being greeted by loved ones, comforted, ushered towards a beautiful light, and a meaningful and healing life-review experience, as well as religious or spiritual figures such as jesus, mother mary, ganesh etc.



Unsurprising to this reader is that you, like every other NDE proponent here in the last 10 years, totally glosses over the negative NDEs. Good job in being so predictable.

Quote:

If time dilation can stretch out the last seconds of brain activity to hours or days or beyond, is that not in effect a form of life after death?



No.


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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: Near Death Experiences, subjective immortality and the essential goodness of life [Re: fungivore]
    #14536608 - 05/30/11 03:48 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Just because our "modern science" cannot prove something means absolutely nothing.





Instead we should look for answers in unsubstantiated conjecture. :yesnod:


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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: Near Death Experiences, subjective immortality and the essential goodness of life [Re: MushroomTrip]
    #14536616 - 05/30/11 03:50 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

MushroomTrip said:
Imagine a river whose water goes upstream each time we're not looking, so that each time we're looking, it basically flows the same water. Maybe there's just a bit of water on this planet, but it moves so fast that it makes it seem like it's everywhere.  :wowz:




An amazing and very original theory. You may just shock the world with this wonderfully deep idea. Here is another: you do not exist until you read one of my posts - and I can prove it.


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OfflineNetDiver
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Re: Near Death Experiences, subjective immortality and the essential goodness of life [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #14538492 - 05/30/11 11:09 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Existence is strange, deep, and mystifying.

NDE's, on the other hand, are not. There are simple physiological explanations for them.

:shrug:


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OfflineJordan Black
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Re: Near Death Experiences, subjective immortality and the essential goodness of life [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #14538575 - 05/30/11 11:29 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

I have read about negative NDE's as well, although I understand that they are the statistical minority. They do happen though, I was not trying to deny that. Whether the experience is positive or negative does not impact my point about the possibility for time dilation creating a subjective experience of life after death. But it does impact my connected point about near death experiences indicating an essential goodness to life, as that point would not hold true in the case of negative NDE's , unless you chose to look at those as a form of justice for bad behavior in life (I don't necessarily support that view)

As for the other point, imagine you and I were in a room together. If you dropped dead and brain activity ceased three minuites later, but you remained conscious in your own subjective reality for what seemed to you to be three days, does not that three days of experience constitute life after death for you?

You could say that technically it is not life after death because that three days of consciousness was a phenomenon produced by three minuites of brain activity, but since what we are talking about is YOUR life after death, is it not your own subjective experience that is relevant, not the time on the physician's stop watch?

Imagine that the world exploded, but at exactly the instant before the world exploded you (with some super power) stopped time. Like in the matrix when Neo stops the bullets and picks them out of the air. For everyone else, the world and life has ended. But for you, in your stopped time eternal moment, you are still conscious and still alive. And if you could stop time indefinetly, the world for you would never end at all.


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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: Near Death Experiences, subjective immortality and the essential goodness of life [Re: Jordan Black]
    #14538625 - 05/30/11 11:39 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

does not that three days of experience constitute life after death for you



No.

If I fantasize about banging J-Lo, does that mean I actually did?


--------------------


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OfflineJordan Black
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Re: Near Death Experiences, subjective immortality and the essential goodness of life [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #14538645 - 05/30/11 11:47 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

"If I fantasize about banging J-Lo, does that mean I actually did? "

I am not sure. If it was just a fantasy, no. But if it was actually a fully perceptually real, intensely vivid experience that was totally indistinguishable to you from banging J-Lo in normal waking life, I would say that to all intents and purposes you did.

I guess you could say that "technically" it wasnt "really" J-Lo, but if it felt just as good or better than it "really" would have, It doesn't seem to me that it matters.

Its all a question of what criteria we are using to determine what we are experiencing. For me, when I think about life after death, if it feels like a year to me it is a year. Time is a phenomenon for whom the only criteria is perception, unless you take the view that time is what is on the clock, and then the question arises- whose clock?

Its like If i am high on ecstasy and feeling extremely happy and someone says to me "your not really happy, your just high on ecstasy".

To me, that is not a valid response. My happiness is real, regardless if it is induced chemically. In the same way, my near death experience of three years of post-death life is real, even if chemico-electrical firing in the dying brain is its closest proximate physical cause.


Edited by Jordan Black (05/30/11 11:48 PM)


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Near Death Experiences, subjective immortality and the essential goodness of life [Re: Jordan Black]
    #14539426 - 05/31/11 06:09 AM (12 years, 7 months ago)

As for the other point, imagine you and I were in a room together. If you dropped dead and brain activity ceased three minuites later, but you remained conscious in your own subjective reality for what seemed to you to be three days, does not that three days of experience constitute life after death for you?

First off you are not dead until brain death.

Second when you dream It can feel like you've lived days but duh, you haven't. 

This idea you have is pretty much full of holes.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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OfflineJordan Black
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Re: Near Death Experiences, subjective immortality and the essential goodness of life [Re: Icelander]
    #14539933 - 05/31/11 09:39 AM (12 years, 7 months ago)

"Second when you dream It can feel like you've lived days but duh, you haven't.  "

Again, It depends on how you think about it and how you define it. When you are dreaming for what feels like days obviously that does not mean that you have been dreaming for the duration of one full earth rotation, which we use to define the concept of a 24 hour day. We can call this a "literal" day or a solar day or whatever.

But if you have been having an experience that is as perceptually long as a waking day, you have in effect experienced a "perceptual day".

I am not arguing that a perceptual day is the same as a solar day. If we define our terms we can clear that up. But as living beings, from an existential point of view, it is actually perceptual days that constitute our lives. Our life is as long as it feels and seems to us. If each moment of our lives stretched out three times longer (subjectively) for us than it did for others, we would experience a life that contained three times more perceptual moments and was in that sense three times "longer".

In altered states of consciousness, the rules and definitions of time that we normally use (clocks, rotations of the earth around the sun and on its own axis) are no longer operative or relevant (those definitions of time are merely arbitrary designations based on social convention) and in the spiritual/near death/ dreaming/ hallucinatory state we enter a private reality in which social convention is no longer relevant.

Existentially, life is experience. If, under some circumstance, my experience of time was dilated so that one moment was like one hour, my perceptual lifespan would increase in a manner proportionate to the dilation of time.

Imagine if you could put your consciousness in to a virtual reality device. This virtual reality device was so advanced that all the physical, mathematical and scientific laws and constants that operated in that virtual reality were programmed by genius human or alien engineers and computer scientists.

Imagine that your experience of time within that virtual reality was also under the direct programming control of the virtual reality designers. If they turn a dial one way, time for you goes faster, if they turn it the other way, time for you goes slower, and if they turn it down all the way, time freezes in an eternal perceptual instant.

If they turn off your time and do not turn it back on, you would be perceptually immortal, your consciousness locked forever in an unending instant. Even if your physical body eventually atrophied and died, your consciousness would never know it, trapped as it was between one instant and the next.


Edited by Jordan Black (05/31/11 09:40 AM)


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Offline4896744
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Re: Near Death Experiences, subjective immortality and the essential goodness of life [Re: Jordan Black]
    #14540055 - 05/31/11 10:23 AM (12 years, 7 months ago)

So your telling me that you can turn off a physical dimension?


--------------------
Live your Life! :heart:


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Near Death Experiences, subjective immortality and the essential goodness of life [Re: Jordan Black]
    #14540206 - 05/31/11 11:08 AM (12 years, 7 months ago)

First off you are not dead until brain death.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Invisibler72rock
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Re: Near Death Experiences, subjective immortality and the essential goodness of life [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #14540313 - 05/31/11 11:39 AM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

OrgoneConclusion said:
Unsurprising to this reader is that you, like every other NDE proponent here in the last 10 years, totally glosses over the negative NDEs. Good job in being so predictable.





I've been looking for these for a while now. Could you link me to one? I've done a couple google searches with switching around the words and looking for pages, but I still can't find one. It all just brings up positive NDE with the times they used the words "negative" or "hell." I think that these would be interesting reads. :smile:


--------------------
Current favorite candy: Peanut Butter Kisses


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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: Near Death Experiences, subjective immortality and the essential goodness of life [Re: r72rock]
    #14540348 - 05/31/11 11:52 AM (12 years, 7 months ago)

With my PhD in Googling, I typed in 'hell NDE' and found lots.

Point to remember, most NDE websites are promoting a specific POV and thus pick & choose the NDEs they present. Confirmation bias, anyone?


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Invisiblejohnm214
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Re: Near Death Experiences, subjective immortality and the essential goodness of life [Re: Jordan Black]
    #14540567 - 05/31/11 01:07 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Jordan Black said:

A large number of people experience, during death or at the time of dying, vivid experiences known as NDEs. These experiences very often include intense feelings of bliss, the experience of being greeted by loved ones, comforted, ushered towards a beautiful light, and a meaningful and healing life-review experience, as well as religious or spiritual figures such as jesus, mother mary, ganesh etc.





What do you base these claims on?  Please demonstrate this is true.




Quote:

Many people who have these experiences say they go on for a long time, seemingly hours or days. The only way this could happen within the time frame of the last moments of brain activity would be if a dramatic time dilation effect occurred.




I don't believe you've established that 'this' happens at all, hence; the conclusion drawn seems unsupported.

Quote:

This raises a few questions. 1. If time dilation can stretch out the last seconds of brain activity to hours or days or beyond, is that not in effect a form of life after death? Even if it only seems to last for say, one day, this is still a day of post-life experience that may be completely sufficient to ease our fear, heal our regrets, and make us accept death without suffering.





How so?  You state a conclusion but don't explain how that is derived from your premise.  Further, the whole notion of this being 'life after death' seems bizarre given the presumption I must make, in the absence of proof, that you have no evidence this occurs after death.  The only other interpretation is to conclude that any change in the perception of time is either shortening or lengthening your life, which seems to be contrary to the very definition of time, which has no relationship with your perceptions.




Quote:

And the possibility that when the NDE ends we transition into a state of total timeless clear light that is subjectively eternal is also possible.




Its possible elephants can fly, too.  You seem to base a whole lot of conclusions on a premise you've not established and which it seems doubtful you can.  Untill the premise is established, the conclusions are not.


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OfflineJordan Black
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Re: Near Death Experiences, subjective immortality and the essential goodness of life [Re: johnm214]
    #14545290 - 06/01/11 11:20 AM (12 years, 7 months ago)

"What do you base these claims on?  Please demonstrate this is true."

If you want to know about typical NDE characteristics (white light, long journeys, life review, religious figures) just google NDE's or buy a book, you will find thousands of experiences documented like the ones I described. My knowledge of these experiences is simply based on reading those same reports. http://www.near-death.com/ will get you started. Obviously I cant "demonstrate" that NDE's occur for you without killing you so that you might experience one.


"Further, the whole notion of this being 'life after death' seems bizarre given the presumption I must make, in the absence of proof, that you have no evidence this occurs after death.  "

As I have said throughout, I am not claiming NDE's happen AFTER brain death, rather that they occur DURING brain death, but due to effects of time dilation a lapse or gap is created in which subjectively speaking the near death experience lasts longer (for the person experiencing it) than the actual duration of brain death, which could be interpreted as indicating a form of life after death in the sense that a ten minuite NDE can occur during say, three minuites of brain activity.

"You seem to base a whole lot of conclusions on a premise you've not established and which it seems doubtful you can.  Untill the premise is established, the conclusions are not. "

I am a bit confused by your various statements. It would help if you would clarify what you see as being my "conclusions" and what you see as being my "premise".

As I see it, my premise is simply that NDE's occur and often seem to be longer (to the person reporting them) then the time they were unconscious from a medical point of view. This premise is derived from my readings of NDE experiences.

I don't really bsae any conclusions on this premise, rather I speculate on the role of time dilation effects in stretching out the last moments of brain activity into a perceptual state and note that the limits of such time dilation are not known.

"The only other interpretation is to conclude that any change in the perception of time is either shortening or lengthening your life, which seems to be contrary to the very definition of time, which has no relationship with your perceptions."

This is the part of your comments that I am very interested in.

How do you define time? Why do you feel that it has no relationship to your perceptions?

I don't claim to know what "time" really is (or rather, which of the numerous definitions and ways of thinking of it should be used), and I would love to hear how you define it.

More to the point though, and as I have already stated, I feel that life is defined by perception more than by anything else, and that a life that feels longer in effect is longer (from a conscioussness/phenomenological/perceptual point of view) in exactly the same way that a life that feels happier in effect is happier.

Just like how happy or sad something is is essentially a perceptual judgment, so is how "long" or "short" something is, as those are subjective personal judgements that are relativistic and not based on any absolute (you wont find "long" or "short" by looking through a microscope)


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InvisibleDiploidM
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Re: Near Death Experiences, subjective immortality and the essential goodness of life [Re: Jordan Black]
    #14545397 - 06/01/11 11:51 AM (12 years, 7 months ago)

If you want to know about typical NDE characteristics just google NDE's or buy a book, you will find thousands of experiences documented like the ones I described.

I just did a google search and found thousands of documented experiences of kids meeting the Tooth Fairy.

Thousands more documented experiences of alien abduction, and chupacbra encounters, and quite a few FSM meetings too.

Hell, I even found a "Guaranteed" date for the end of the world.

So what?


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


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