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Invisiblememes
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Big Companies & their Tax Evasion
    #14533042 - 05/29/11 09:11 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

This thread is inspired by a recently closed thread about apple (and other large corporations) evading paying taxes on their earnings, or something to that extent.  Does this bother you? 

They pay into taxes via employee payroll, they provide jobs, which generate income for citizens (which is taxed), and we all acknowledge that increases in the cost to the corporation will be passed on as higher prices to consumers.

So, tax 'em like a hawk and suffer from lower consumption resulting from raised prices?  Or let 'em slip through loopholes and get a fair amount from their payrolls, while accepting that their presence provides jobs, which provides economic activity, which implies other jobs, ad nauseum.

In the world of today where companies can operate internationally from anywhere (or nowhere), I think any and all policies that would incentivize an exodus of multinationals should be discouraged.  Then again, i've been on the boat drinking all day, am only awake to avoid getting the spins as I lay down, and have been alleviating my physical ills with more and more bonghits now that I've secured a bag to be delivered for tomorrow (runnin low).

So, your thoughts?



Hope this can be more productive than the original. [not trying to overstep your lock, Seuss -- just a topic that intrigued me and necessitated a guaging of shroomery public opinion]

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InvisibleNoetical
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Re: Big Companies & their Tax Evasion [Re: memes]
    #14533294 - 05/29/11 10:02 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

I've had a snifter or two of Scotch tonight and here are my irrelevant and off topic thoughts to your post:

America your code is too complicated and your rate is too high, that said,  pay your bill. Avoid all you want but don't evade cause that is illegal.

But tax point being, the reason I replied is because I am in strong disagreement with your contention that companies can operate internationally from anywhere (or nowhere). The arbitrage opportunity of moving labour and capital is quickly shrinking and the rigours of the extended supply chain are showing larger and larger cracks. Readily evident from the disruptions found when a JIT system has a hiccup (think Fukushima) and the larger share of cost that transit has on an item.

So what does that mean, well I think companies if they are going to want to continue serving markets with tanigble goods in the future are going to have to be within that market because the cost of movement will be to onerous to have operations outside of the local.

And the internet will kill the service sector - it has already started. But I want to drink tea so the end.

And your favourite rag had a few articles on the repatriation of operations a few weeks ago - you should check it out.

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Invisiblememes
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Re: Big Companies & their Tax Evasion [Re: Noetical]
    #14533341 - 05/29/11 10:13 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Noetical said:
And your favourite rag had a few articles on the repatriation of operations a few weeks ago - you should check it out.



yeah i read it.  your toughts make sense.

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OfflineSeussA
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Re: Big Companies & their Tax Evasion [Re: memes]
    #14534534 - 05/30/11 05:52 AM (12 years, 11 months ago)

> [companies] evading paying taxes on their earnings ....  Does this bother you? 

I do not fault the companies for using loopholes to avoid taxes any more than I fault you for not voluntarily giving a donation of your income to the federal government.  I do fault the federal government for creating the tax loopholes in the first place.  I believe the federal government should simplify the tax code and close the loopholes.  (They should also end entitlements and subsidies, but that is a topic for another thread...)


--------------------
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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Big Companies & their Tax Evasion [Re: Seuss]
    #14534792 - 05/30/11 08:19 AM (12 years, 11 months ago)

:thumbup:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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InvisiblePrisoner#1
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Re: Big Companies & their Tax Evasion [Re: memes]
    #14535024 - 05/30/11 09:49 AM (12 years, 11 months ago)

my $300k tax liability is now at $10k thanks to these loopholes

is it ok for me to exploit them but not for large corporations?

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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: Big Companies & their Tax Evasion [Re: Prisoner#1]
    #14535143 - 05/30/11 10:21 AM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Prisoner#1 said:
my $300k tax liability is now at $10k thanks to these loopholes

is it ok for me to exploit them but not for large corporations?



What?:shocked:


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Invisiblememes
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Re: Big Companies & their Tax Evasion [Re: Prisoner#1]
    #14535236 - 05/30/11 10:45 AM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Prisoner#1 said:
is it ok for me to exploit them but not for large corporations?



I personally think its OK for anyone to exploit them.  I dont even like the word "exploit" -- makes it sound morally awry.

The loopholes are there.  Use them.  The thread wasn't supposed to be directed at the morality of the companies -- moreso the existance of their methods.  It may have not been clear from last night's post (i was pretty shitty) but now that its out in the open, we can continue

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InvisiblePrisoner#1
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Re: Big Companies & their Tax Evasion [Re: zappaisgod]
    #14537035 - 05/30/11 06:03 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Quote:

Prisoner#1 said:
my $300k tax liability is now at $10k thanks to these loopholes

is it ok for me to exploit them but not for large corporations?



What?:shocked:





yeah, seems the IRS doesnt understand capitol gains/losses or profit they
believe that if you buy an item for $10 and sell the item for $12 you have
made $12 in profit there for your tax is $12, please endorse your paycheck
and mail it to them

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InvisibleTherian
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Re: Big Companies & their Tax Evasion [Re: Prisoner#1]
    #14553724 - 06/03/11 12:17 AM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

I do fault the federal government for creating the tax loopholes in the first place.  I believe the federal government should simplify the tax code and close the loopholes.




Why do you think the gov. created the loopholes? They were paid to do so by the corporations. There is no way to incentivise the closing of loopholes as they as well as your elected reps. have already been bought and paid for. Why do you think there is always talk of, but never any action on campaign finance reform? Many corporations actually have written laws for themselves. Others have written the laws which govern their particular business or trade. These are definitely akin to having foxes write hen house guarding laws. All you have to do is pay your congressman enough money, through "lobbying" and you too can get your own loophole.

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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: Big Companies & their Tax Evasion [Re: Therian]
    #14554565 - 06/03/11 07:53 AM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Therian said:
Quote:

I do fault the federal government for creating the tax loopholes in the first place.  I believe the federal government should simplify the tax code and close the loopholes.




Why do you think the gov. created the loopholes? They were paid to do so by the corporations. There is no way to incentivise the closing of loopholes as they as well as your elected reps. have already been bought and paid for. Why do you think there is always talk of, but never any action on campaign finance reform? Many corporations actually have written laws for themselves. Others have written the laws which govern their particular business or trade. These are definitely akin to having foxes write hen house guarding laws. All you have to do is pay your congressman enough money, through "lobbying" and you too can get your own loophole.



Why should there be any tax on corporations at all?  It's stupid.  We have an income tax.  Tax the owners when the take profit.  End of issue.


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OfflineSeussA
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Re: Big Companies & their Tax Evasion [Re: zappaisgod]
    #14554747 - 06/03/11 09:13 AM (12 years, 11 months ago)

> Why should there be any tax on corporations at all?

How else are we going to pay for all of the subsidies and entitlements?  Income tax would not be nearly enough.


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: Big Companies & their Tax Evasion [Re: Seuss]
    #14554775 - 06/03/11 09:30 AM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Seuss said:
> Why should there be any tax on corporations at all?

How else are we going to pay for all of the subsidies and entitlements?  Income tax would not be nearly enough.



The tax loopholes are the subsidies and entitlements.


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InvisibleTherian
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Re: Big Companies & their Tax Evasion [Re: zappaisgod]
    #14556631 - 06/03/11 05:20 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Why should there be any tax on corporations at all?  It's stupid.  We have an income tax.  Tax the owners when the take profit.  End of issue.




Ain't gonna happen. Obviously with incorporation comes benefits. What happens if there is no profit and the company goes bankrupt through mismanagement? Is the ceo responsible for the debt? Does the bankruptcy devastate his credit? Will the IRS take his belongings? Hell no, the corporation is a separate entity. You can't have it both ways, they take the profit during times of prosperity, then they don't take the hit when they fuck things up? Who will bail them out?

Actually they do have it both ways. When things are going well its great for the companies, when things aren't, suddenly it every ones problem. 


Quote:

Why should there be any tax on corporations at all?

How else are we going to pay for all of the subsidies and entitlements?  Income tax would not be nearly enough.




You two are confused. The grand sum total of the tax liability paid by corporations to the US gov. is 7%. Yes, just seven percent of the total. The repubs would have you believe they pay everything, they don't.

As a matter of fact I often hear how 50% of wage earners pay no taxes, this is false. I believe it is 37%, and even that is deceptive. All workers pay SS and medicare, the gov has been stealing from SS for decades to pay for every other pet project they can come up with. Anyone that works has had their money stolen from SS and spent elsewhere.

Do you want to know the percentage of corporations that pay no taxes? Nearly double the 37% of "non paying workers". Yes, two thirds, nearly 67% of all corporations pay NADA, JACK SHIT, NOTHING. Many of them making BILLIONS of dollars, and through nifty accounting practices can not only pay nothing but actually receive millions back from the gov. The money given back by the gov. is merely a monetary thank you to the corporations for sending their jobs overseas. The whole system is corrupt, and neither side is about to do anything about it.

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OfflineSeussA
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Re: Big Companies & their Tax Evasion [Re: Therian]
    #14557366 - 06/03/11 08:15 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Ain't gonna happen. Obviously with incorporation comes benefits. What happens if there is no profit and the company goes bankrupt through mismanagement? Is the ceo responsible for the debt? Does the bankruptcy devastate his credit? Will the IRS take his belongings? Hell no, the corporation is a separate entity. You can't have it both ways, they take the profit during times of prosperity, then they don't take the hit when they fuck things up? Who will bail them out?




Is this sarcasm, or are you serious?  It isn't the governments job to bail out private corporations, contrary to what Barry believes.  Investing is a risky venture.  Investors usually lose money when the company they invest in goes bankrupt.

Quote:

You two are confused. The grand sum total of the tax liability paid by corporations to the US gov. is 7%.




As a previous owner of a c-corp (stupid move with the c-corp, I know), I can say with first hand knowledge that you are full of shit.  My federal tax rate on the c-corp was 34%, thank you very much.  The state took another 8%.


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OfflineChuangTzu
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Re: Big Companies & their Tax Evasion [Re: Seuss]
    #14557894 - 06/03/11 10:04 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Seuss said:
Quote:

Ain't gonna happen. Obviously with incorporation comes benefits. What happens if there is no profit and the company goes bankrupt through mismanagement? Is the ceo responsible for the debt? Does the bankruptcy devastate his credit? Will the IRS take his belongings? Hell no, the corporation is a separate entity. You can't have it both ways, they take the profit during times of prosperity, then they don't take the hit when they fuck things up? Who will bail them out?




Is this sarcasm, or are you serious?  It isn't the governments job to bail out private corporations, contrary to what Barry believes.  Investing is a risky venture.  Investors usually lose money when the company they invest in goes bankrupt.




Exactly, nobody is forcing those investors to invest in those companies.  The investors are perfectly aware that there is risk involved in their actions.

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InvisibleTherian
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Re: Big Companies & their Tax Evasion [Re: ChuangTzu]
    #14558410 - 06/04/11 12:05 AM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Is this sarcasm, or are you serious?  It isn't the governments job to bail out private corporations, contrary to what Barry believes.  Investing is a risky venture.  Investors usually lose money when the company they invest in goes bankrupt.




That was sarcasm. It was in response to the suggestion that there should be no corporate taxes. The point being there is a price to be paid if one has no personal financial liability if the business fails. Also, incorporating makes it difficult to sue the individuals that began the corporation, and depending on where established many corps. have to pay NO income taxes. Why do you think it is that the majority of U.S. companies have been incorporated in Delaware, even though they may operate their businesses in another state?

Quote:

I can say with first hand knowledge that you are full of shit.  My federal tax rate on the c-corp was 34%, thank you very much.  The state took another 8%.




I told you you were confused. I didn't say that your taxation rate was 7%. I said corporations on a whole pay 7% of the total taxes paid to the federal government.

Why the hell didn't you take a larger salary? In a c-corp you will have to pay no corporate income tax on your salary. The total profit of your company could be offset by the salary, thus enabling you to operate c.tax free. Seriously, where the hell did you and prisoner get your advice. I think if you would have used GE's accountants and business lawyers you would have gotten millions back.

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OfflineSeussA
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Re: Big Companies & their Tax Evasion [Re: Therian]
    #14559076 - 06/04/11 07:31 AM (12 years, 11 months ago)

> Why the hell didn't you take a larger salary?

It was my fist company, there were other people involved, and to be honest, at the time I didn't know any better.


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Just another spore in the wind.

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