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OfflinexFrockx
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Re: anyone move past death anxiety? [Re: Icelander]
    #14529851 - 05/29/11 08:52 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

"If one does not know what is to be feared then life has no limits for them imo. They would be at the top of the life game an they would do whatever they wanted to do without any reservations ever. Do you know anyone like that?"

No, because I don't think that is the picture of what a person without fear is like. Why would a person want to do anything? They would need to have some reason to do something, right? Well anytime we need to justify an action, the possibility is there for feeling that creeping fear of possibly being wrong. A person without death anxiety might give up their own wants and desires to a very large extent. I've noticed that the more I do that the less I feel any anxiety at all.

"But neither he nor I was willing to commit to the cure until forced."

If I understand Socrates as well as I think I do it was not a lack of will that kept him from suicide, but the lack of a logical argument for it. He would not end his life with an unreasonable action, that would be totally against who he was.

Edited by xFrockx (05/29/11 08:57 AM)

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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: anyone move past death anxiety? [Re: xFrockx]
    #14529913 - 05/29/11 09:24 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Why would a person want to do anything? They would need to have some reason to do something, right?

I never said a person would want to do anything. I said they would do anything they wanted. Big difference.

What is to fear about being wrong if you are immortal?You have nothing to prove. As Becker said there would be no need to prove that the self is immortal so there would be no shame or problem with being wrong. It's the need to be perfect that is the problem according to Becker. Only a perfect self can be immortal.

I've noticed that the more I do that the less I feel any anxiety at all.

So you feel anxiety. If it wasn't the fear of failure (metaphor for death) why do you feel any anxiety at all?

If socrates said death is a "cure" for life then he must have seen life as a form of disease.  The logical argument then for suicide is to cure one of disease.  This would of course make the action the only reasonable one.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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OfflinexFrockx
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Re: anyone move past death anxiety? [Re: Icelander]
    #14529972 - 05/29/11 09:53 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

"What is to fear about being wrong if you are immortal?You have nothing to prove. As Becker said there would be no need to prove that the self is immortal so there would be no shame or problem with being wrong. It's the need to be perfect that is the problem according to Becker. Only a perfect self can be immortal. "

Woah woah now. Immortal? We're getting into some thick woods here.

"So you feel anxiety. If it wasn't the fear of failure (metaphor for death) why do you feel any anxiety at all?"

I don't feel anxiety right now, but I have felt anxiety, yes. Why? I'm not sure. The times I feel most anxious are the times where I'm stuck doing something that I don't want to do when I want to do something else. I guess that would be freedom anxiety if you want to call it anything, the anxiety I have when I'm not doing what I want to do. Even that though is controllable, I've gotten pretty good at tossing away the ideas that create the stress, like that I want to do something else, or that there is something displeasurable about what I'm currently doing. So I guess you could say I do get anxious about wasting my life (when I am blind enough to think there is such a thing), but as far as death goes it will come when it will come. For me, there will only be one history of my life when it is over.

"If socrates said death is a "cure" for life then he must have seen life as a form of disease.  The logical argument then for suicide is to cure one of disease.  This would of course make the action the only reasonable one. "

I don't know if he would have made that argument based off a metaphor like that. He could have thought of life as a disease, but to think death was the cure enough to believe that suicide would work, would be assuming that one knew something about death. He sure thought at the end there it seemed that he was being cured, he wanted his students Simmas and Cebes to sacrifice a chicken to Alepusius the god of healing afterward. Why wouldn't he commit suicide? He may well have seen his life as a citizen of Athens duty enough, IDK.

Edited by xFrockx (05/29/11 10:02 AM)

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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: anyone move past death anxiety? [Re: xFrockx]
    #14530001 - 05/29/11 10:07 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

You read the book? Immortality is the only cure for death anxiety. The unconscious belief that we can be deathless is the project of the goals and shields of the ego self. Yes indeed it is thick woods but not like you mean it.

but I have felt anxiety, yes. Why? I'm not sure.

Fair enough.

but as far as death goes it will come when it will come.

Who ever said differently?  However as long as that "coming" is somewhere out there in a unknown future  there is no major anxiety for most of us.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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OfflinexFrockx
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Re: anyone move past death anxiety? [Re: Icelander]
    #14530030 - 05/29/11 10:17 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

"You read the book. Immortality is the only cure for death anxiety. The unconscious belief that we can be deathless is the project of the goals and shields of the ego self. Yes indeed it is thick woods but not like you mean it."

Well I guess since I don't know if I do die, I don't have that problem. That might sound childish without understanding why I can think that. If it is the case that eternal recurrence is true, then we never do die, we just live the same life forever and there is no death, no nothingness, only the life we have now. Due to that possibility, I simply can't know if there is any point to feeling anxious or bad ever, it would only be adding experiences to my life I do not want to have (which would be the case even in a non-recurrent universe). It doesn't take that idea to allow one to have the "immortal" mentality, but I think it snapped me out of a lot of shit.

I don't believe the idea, but if I do its like if I was in the movie groundhog day but knowing I only had one day to get it right.

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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: anyone move past death anxiety? [Re: xFrockx]
    #14530074 - 05/29/11 10:37 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Well a belief in that possibility makes a nice shield. :thumbup: As you know Becker states that we face utter madness without some shields to our full awareness of our impermanence.


I have no idea what death is. I don't know if it's the end or the beginning outside of what material evidence I use to make my guesses. Still I know I have death anxiety and I know that my body does also. I jump back from the oncoming auto. My body seems to know it can end.

Bill Murry had no death anxiety so he committed suicide many times due to the fact that he was, for awhile at least immortal.  While this is a favorite movie of mine I still believe it to be nothing more that a wish fulfilling romantic comedy about a form of reincarnation. That's why I enjoy it.

Actually feeling anxiety may be a selected survival trait.  And while you say there is no point in it you still acknowledge you feel it at times. Somethings going on there.

Actually you're right about another thing, there is no real good reason for most people to acknowledge death anxiety. It can only make their life worse.  I understand this and if I could make it so that I didn't understand the concept I would.  However my life and a few others here have brought us by hook or by crook to this awareness and for us there is only the looking ever deeper into what we are.  I only post about it here for those folk and myself.  I hope the rest can ignore it for their sake.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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OfflinexFrockx
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Re: anyone move past death anxiety? [Re: Icelander]
    #14530162 - 05/29/11 11:06 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

"Well a belief in that possibility makes a nice shield"

Does one need to believe in possibilities? I wouldn't say I believe its a possibility, just that I can't say it isn't one.

"awareness of our impermanence."

I would argue that this "awareness" is equally as illusory as an awareness of permanence as we would get from "shields".

"Still I know I have death anxiety and I know that my body does also."

You speak about your body as if it were another person. That's some extreme dualism.

"Bill Murry had no death anxiety so he committed suicide many times due to the fact that he was, for awhile at least immortal.  While this is a favorite movie of mine I still believe it to be nothing more that a wish fulfilling romantic comedy about a form of reincarnation. That's why I enjoy it."

Yeah the end isn't great, although I'm not sure any ending would be appropriate if you get my drift.

"Actually feeling anxiety may be a selected survival trait.  And while you say there is no point in it you still acknowledge you feel it at times. Somethings going on there. "

Just because we have a trait doesn't mean there is any greater significance to it. See also: wisdom teeth.

"Actually you're right about another thing, there is no real good reason for most people to acknowledge death anxiety. It can only make their life worse.  I understand this and if I could make it so that I didn't understand the concept I would."

I don't suppose you would be helped by me telling you that you have only convinced yourself you understood it?


"However my life and a few others here have brought us by hook or by crook to this awareness and for us there is only the looking ever deeper into what we are."

Staring into a cave as far as I'm concerned.

"I only post about it here for those folk and myself.  I hope the rest can ignore it for their sake. "

You're not much different from the other dogmatics. In fact, the way you operate, in structure, is the same. Have you noticed?

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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: anyone move past death anxiety? [Re: xFrockx]
    #14530207 - 05/29/11 11:17 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

I feel like all this has been covered. :shrug:/


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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InvisiblePoid
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Re: anyone move past death anxiety? [Re: Icelander]
    #14530373 - 05/29/11 12:06 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
Like the person who feels so comfortable in the culture that humans have built, they know exactly what the world is. Then in a moment of bravado take a very high dose of psychedelics and find that the world they knew is only a construct of their mind and in effect we are swimming in a stew of unimaginable and unknowable chaos. Then the psychotic break and Humpty Dumpty will have to see if he can, in some fashion, put something back together again.


This is like my life. :mushroom2:


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: anyone move past death anxiety? [Re: Poid]
    #14530431 - 05/29/11 12:19 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

This is all too common in the psychedelic community but not limited to it.  It just takes another kind of shock for the straight community.  Like the death of a child or the loss of a fortune or a deadly disease etc.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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InvisiblePoid
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Re: anyone move past death anxiety? [Re: Icelander]
    #14530441 - 05/29/11 12:21 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

xFrockx said:
"Still I know I have death anxiety and I know that my body does also."

You speak about your body as if it were another person. That's some extreme dualism.


He's just referring to his body in the 3rd person, I don't think he's implying any dualism.

If I speak about how my leg behaves during a patellar reflex, would this mean that I am implying some sort of dualism?


Quote:

xFrockx said:
"Actually feeling anxiety may be a selected survival trait.  And while you say there is no point in it you still acknowledge you feel it at times. Somethings going on there. "

Just because we have a trait doesn't mean there is any greater significance to it. See also: wisdom teeth.


He said "may"..do you have any evidence that anxious feelings are about as insignificant as wisdom teeth? :muppet:


Quote:

xFrockx said:
"Actually you're right about another thing, there is no real good reason for most people to acknowledge death anxiety. It can only make their life worse.  I understand this and if I could make it so that I didn't understand the concept I would."

I don't suppose you would be helped by me telling you that you have only convinced yourself you understood it?


Why just tell him? Why not convince him? :grin:


Quote:

xFrockx said:
"I only post about it here for those folk and myself.  I hope the rest can ignore it for their sake. "

You're not much different from the other dogmatics. In fact, the way you operate, in structure, is the same. Have you noticed?


I have yet to see anybody give a decent argument which suggests that death anxiety is not like how it is described in Becker's book..also, Icelander is not dogmatic because he actually debates, and provides thoughtful reasoning for his claims..dogmatists do not back up their dogma with logical, thoughtful reasoning.



Quote:

Icelander said:
This is all too common in the psychedelic community but not limited to it.  It just takes another kind of shock for the straight community.  Like the death of a child or the loss of a fortune or a deadly disease etc.


Humans are so psychologically/emotionally fragile, it sucks. :frown:


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

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OfflineNetDiver
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Re: anyone move past death anxiety? [Re: Poid]
    #14530551 - 05/29/11 12:42 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Poid said:
I don't see your point..you've defined a person as a body with trillions of different cells, how is that not cut-and-dried? A body is a system, and a person's personal identity is assigned to that system.



It is assigned to the system, by the system itself. Definitions and concepts such as "identity" and "distinction" were invented by humans. There's no objective definition of what constitutes an individual apart from the criteria that we've decided upon.

Quote:

Not sure how society's millions of people is relevant..each of those people are individual people, what is so hard? :confused2:



Individual people drawing from the same history, the same language, the same culture, and using the same physical tools to perceive in much the same way. If you don't believe in souls, then you believe that where sense organs exist, perception exists. "Whose" perception it is becomes a moot question, because, again, unless you believe in souls, there is no objective answer to the question of who you are.


Quote:

Not exactly..I would still be the same system (my body), that a system evolves over time does not mean that it is absolutely divided from its past self.



Exactly! But your body, what you consider you, is an integral part of an evolving system, that began before you were born (genetics, which drive most of your actions) and will end long after you die. You can look at object A and move across the room and look at object B and still perceive, with no interim gap -- well, extrapolate that idea to a higher level, where the entire physical system of life becomes a body. Given the lack of objective distinctions between people, from a point outside the system, I don't see how this is so farfetched. Sense organs = perception, "whose" perception it is is an objectively invalid question, therefore we have a continuity of perception.

That's what this article is about.

Quote:

Poid said:
Quote:

Samurai Drifter said:
The person I define myself as now exists in relation to a history that occurred before anyone alive today was born.


So? What does that have to do with the price of tea? :what:



History is a part of my identity. History is like a collective memory. Nobody was alive 500 years ago, yet we have an idea of what occurred, and that idea contributes to forming who we are. How is that different from not remembering what happened when you were 2 years old, but being told about it, and considering it as part of your identity?


--------------------

Edited by NetDiver (05/29/11 12:49 PM)

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InvisiblePoid
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Re: anyone move past death anxiety? [Re: NetDiver]
    #14530666 - 05/29/11 01:04 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Samurai Drifter said:
Quote:

Poid said:
I don't see your point..you've defined a person as a body with trillions of different cells, how is that not cut-and-dried? A body is a system, and a person's personal identity is assigned to that system.



It is assigned to the system, by the system itself. Definitions and concepts such as "identity" and "distinction" were invented by humans. There's no objective definition of what constitutes an individual apart from the criteria that we've decided upon.


I don't think we invented distinction..sure, we recognize it, but to say we invented it is a bit of a stretch IMO. I'm not sure how you figure the definition of what constitutes an individual is not objective..it is a definition of a particular phenomenon, just like the definition for light is a definition of a particular phenomenon.

Is the definition of light also not objective IYO? :undecided:


Quote:

Samurai Drifter said:
Quote:

Not sure how society's millions of people is relevant..each of those people are individual people, what is so hard? :confused2:



Individual people drawing from the same history, the same language, the same culture, and using the same physical tools to perceive in much the same way. If you don't believe in souls, then you believe that where sense organs exist, perception exists. "Whose" perception it is becomes a moot question, because, again, unless you believe in souls, there is no objective answer to the question of who you are.


I don't believe that there is no objective answer to what I am.."who" I am is fundamentally a psychological construct that exists in my brain which is the source of the manifestation of my behaviors, which can be objectively measured.


Quote:

Samurai Drifter said:
Quote:

Not exactly..I would still be the same system (my body), that a system evolves over time does not mean that it is absolutely divided from its past self.



Exactly! But your body, what you consider you, is an integral part of an evolving system, that began before you were born (genetics, which drive most of your actions) and will end long after you die. You can look at object A and move across the room and look at object B and still perceive, with no interim gap -- well, extrapolate that idea to a higher level, where the entire physical system of life becomes a body.


You're suggesting that I consider all lifeforms to be one body?


Quote:

Samurai Drifter said:
Given the lack of objective distinctions between people, from a point outside the system, I don't see how this is so farfetched.


May you clarify on what you mean by "a point outside the system"? By 'system' here, are you referring to an individual human body, or the "entire physical system of life"?


Quote:

Samurai Drifter said:
Sense organs = perception, "whose" perception it is is an objectively invalid question, therefore we have a continuity of perception.


I think introducing the concept of "who" is causing a bit of confusion here..I think it would be better to ask "what's" perception instead because that would be referring to an entire human being, whereas "who" refers to only a particular aspect of a human being (i.e. identity).

Considering this, I think it's a safe bet to assume that each human is experiencing its own consciousness..each system possesses an individual consciousness. It is not objectively invalid to ask "what's" perception IMO, because it's fairly clear to me that any perception "belongs" to whatever creature possesses the sense organ to produce the said perception.


Quote:

Samurai Drifter said:
That's what this article is about. See why I think you don't understand the point I'm trying to make a lot of the time? You still seem to think that the distinctions that we believe in, as humans, were somehow objectively decided before we even came about.


I know what that article was about..I appreciate the summary nonetheless. :thumbup:

What do you mean by "objectively decided"? I believe that the distinctions I perceive very likely exist in an objective universe..I don't believe that there is an objective universe where the distinctions I perceive are non-existent.


Quote:

Samurai Drifter said:
Quote:

Poid said:
Quote:

Samurai Drifter said:
The person I define myself as now exists in relation to a history that occurred before anyone alive today was born.


So? What does that have to do with the price of tea? :what:



History is a part of my identity. History is like a collective memory. Nobody was alive 500 years ago, yet we have an idea of what occurred, and that idea contributes to forming who we are. How is that different from not remembering what happened when you were 2 years old, but being told about it, and considering it as part of your identity?


One is based on lots of historical evidence, the other is based on faith in the word of the person who told you about what happened when you were 2.

I honestly don't see what point you're trying to make by bringing this up..you're describing how history is a part of one's identity, how does this relate to the suggestion that there is a "non-personal experience" after death?


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: anyone move past death anxiety? [Re: Icelander]
    #14530698 - 05/29/11 01:12 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
I feel like all this has been covered. :shrug:/





but just to add

Grapefruit said:
One more great JM quote...

"We're all afloat in a boundless sea, and the way we cope is by massing together in groups and pretending in unison that the situation is other than it is.  We reinforce the illusion for each other.  That's what a society really is, a little band of humanity huddled together against the specter of a pitch black sea.  Everyone is treading water to keep their heads above the surface even though they have no reason to believe that the life they're preserving is better than the alternative they're avoiding.  It's just that one is known and one is not.  Fear of the unknown is what keeps everyone busily treading water.  All fear is fear of the unknown.  If someone in such a group of water-treaders betrays the group lie by speaking the truth of their situation, that person is called a heretic, and society reserves its most awful punishments for heretics.  If someone decides to stop struggling and just sink or float away, every possible effort is made to stop him, not for the benefit of the individual, but for the benefit of the group.  To deny at all costs the truth of the situation."


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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InvisibleCups
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Re: anyone move past death anxiety? [Re: Icelander]
    #14530699 - 05/29/11 01:12 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:


Bill Murry had no death anxiety so he committed suicide many times due to the fact that he was, for awhile at least immortal.  While this is a favorite movie of mine I still believe it to be nothing more that a wish fulfilling romantic comedy about a form of reincarnation. That's why I enjoy it.




1st of all that movie ain't about Bills Murray's character or reincarnation. :mad2:  It's all about Andie. :inlove3:

Of course that's still a kind of death anxiety thing since she was "important" enough that the universe set all that up for her.

But here's an article you might like.  Guys breaks it down and Bill was stuck there for 12,403 days!

Quote:


"Actually you're right about another thing, there is no real good reason for most people to acknowledge death anxiety. It can only make their life worse.  I understand this and if I could make it so that I didn't understand the concept I would."




My life was already fairly mediocre as was.  I had no motivation to do anything but dream up big projects and then when the chance came to pull them off I would always fold like a house of cards.  It's only after this stuff have I come to realize that the Fear has been waiting for me behind the scenes my whole life. 

So even though I admittedly don't have the years of conscious awareness of death anxiety as you do...I have had it close to the surface for a long long time.  This may be naivete talking but I view it (personally) as a positive occurrence.  At least now I have a chance to try and do something with it rather than be it's unwitting puppet.

One aspect which does provide a good amount of dissonance for me is whether it means anything or not.  I envy the Buddhists and other in this regard.  By all account senior practitioners go through this same stuff...but they do so confident they are actually achieving something.  If not in this life then the next.

The idea of willing subjecting myself to the torture and such that approaching this requires...all the while being unsure that I will end up any "better" than joe citizen who never did any of it makes my stomach turn over. 

It's taken me a long time to even start to be comfortable with the idea of doing this strictly for my own personal happiness.  However, recently grokking how the experience of life is an entirely subjective internal thing has helped a lot.  For one, it removes the need to be perfect/infallible.  Making mistakes is OK.  That's really helped.

It has also brought into focus the validity of seeking happiness.  In an entirely subjective internal experience...what else is there?  Really?

My happiness is as real in my mind as the mountain I stand next to. :psychsplit:


--------------------
What's up everybody?!

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OfflineNetDiver
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Re: anyone move past death anxiety? [Re: Cups]
    #14531177 - 05/29/11 03:03 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

It's as much a "pre-life" existence as an "after death" existence. History being part of my identity means that the experiences of others whom I normally consider separate become mine, become part of my identity, in the same way that experiences from my own life that I don't remember become part of my identity.

Here's a thought experiment: imagine that in the future, there are brain implants invented that record your brain states, exactly as you sense them, and send the information to a storage device. Later, others can plug into that storage device and experience the same brain-states, effectively allowing them to have the experience exactly as you remember it.

Suddenly memory, the bread-and-butter criteria of personal identity, no longer divides us so absolutely. All memories are actually available for everybody to experience. I can "remember" what happened to you, you can "remember" what happened to me. At that point, given that we're all physically connected, wouldn't it really be like we were all part of one, spatially extended body, with a single mind?

Well, we don't have a technology like that -- but we do have technology that serves a similar purpose (if less reliably/efficiently). We have the written word, pictures, video, sound recording -- allowing certain events to be experienced at least approximately to how they were originally. So we're still connected, but our memory isn't nearly as clear.

The point of discussing this connection that we all share, along with our knowledge of history and our incorporation of history into our identities, is to show that experiences and identities already extend beyond the lifespan of a single individual.

Quote:

What do you mean by "objectively decided"? I believe that the distinctions I perceive very likely exist in an objective universe..I don't believe that there is an objective universe where the distinctions I perceive are non-existent.




A lot of the problem here is with the dualistic distinction between subject and object. All objects are perceived in relation to the thing that's looking at them (when you look at something through a blue-colored lens, it will appear blue to you; similarly, everything we perceive is dependent upon our ability to sense it in that way).

I question the assertion that there are two fundamentally opposed kinds of things: objective things and subjective things. This assertion is dualistic. All information that we have, upon which our entire worldview has been based, is formed from our subjective perspective, and all measurements are made using senses.

Approaching from the objective angle, let's begin with a few points:

1. Everything that you know, or think you know, is drawn from the pool of human knowledge, including all statements that assert are true or false (i.e. you and I are different people, the speed of light is 299,792,458 m/s, etc.) Your entire picture of the world is based upon such value statements.
2. Human knowledge (from which these value statements originate) is constructed based on measurements gained from senses.
3. The qualities of senses are entirely dependent upon the physical make-up of sense organs.

It seems, then, that everything you think you know is based on the physical make-up of your sense organs. Well, different animals have different modes of sensory input. Even among people, there are different ways of sensing (some people are blind, deaf, etc). These differences in sensory perception cause a completely different picture of the world to exist for that person.

So, the world perceived is entirely dependent upon the subject perceiving it. Objectivity becomes nothing more than the sum of all subjectivities.


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: anyone move past death anxiety? [Re: NetDiver]
    #14531242 - 05/29/11 03:20 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Very interesting post.:thumbup:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: anyone move past death anxiety? [Re: Cups]
    #14531267 - 05/29/11 03:26 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Cups said:
Quote:


Bill Murry had no death anxiety so he committed suicide many times due to the fact that he was, for awhile at least immortal.  While this is a favorite movie of mine I still believe it to be nothing more that a wish fulfilling romantic comedy about a form of reincarnation. That's why I enjoy it.




1st of all that movie ain't about Bills Murray's character or reincarnation. :mad2:  It's all about Andie. :inlove3:

Of course that's still a kind of death anxiety thing since she was "important" enough that the universe set all that up for her.

But here's an article you might like.  Guys breaks it down and Bill was stuck there for 12,403 days!

Quote:


"Actually you're right about another thing, there is no real good reason for most people to acknowledge death anxiety. It can only make their life worse.  I understand this and if I could make it so that I didn't understand the concept I would."




My life was already fairly mediocre as was.  I had no motivation to do anything but dream up big projects and then when the chance came to pull them off I would always fold like a house of cards.  It's only after this stuff have I come to realize that the Fear has been waiting for me behind the scenes my whole life. 

So even though I admittedly don't have the years of conscious awareness of death anxiety as you do...I have had it close to the surface for a long long time.  This may be naivete talking but I view it (personally) as a positive occurrence.  At least now I have a chance to try and do something with it rather than be it's unwitting puppet.

One aspect which does provide a good amount of dissonance for me is whether it means anything or not.  I envy the Buddhists and other in this regard.  By all account senior practitioners go through this same stuff...but they do so confident they are actually achieving something.  If not in this life then the next.

The idea of willing subjecting myself to the torture and such that approaching this requires...all the while being unsure that I will end up any "better" than joe citizen who never did any of it makes my stomach turn over. 

It's taken me a long time to even start to be comfortable with the idea of doing this strictly for my own personal happiness.  However, recently grokking how the experience of life is an entirely subjective internal thing has helped a lot.  For one, it removes the need to be perfect/infallible.  Making mistakes is OK.  That's really helped.

It has also brought into focus the validity of seeking happiness.  In an entirely subjective internal experience...what else is there?  Really?

My happiness is as real in my mind as the mountain I stand next to. :psychsplit:





Well you are "the few" here that I post about death anxiety for in particular.  You let me know your situation and I could plainly see you were going to go through the shit on this.  Many people however would not benefit from too much death awareness due to their mental constitution imo.  Were we all taught about the reality of death and how to face it in a positive fashion in childhood and supported in that knowledge by our culture then that would not be the case.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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InvisiblePoid
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Re: anyone move past death anxiety? [Re: NetDiver]
    #14531344 - 05/29/11 03:46 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Samurai Drifter said:
It's as much a "pre-life" existence as an "after death" existence.


I assumed this was so.


Quote:

Samurai Drifter said:
History being part of my identity means that the experiences of others whom I normally consider separate become mine, become part of my identity, in the same way that experiences from my own life that I don't remember become part of my identity.


Their literal experiences don't become part of your identity, only your interpretations of the said experiences do, and only if you choose to identify with your interpretations.

Are you saying you're identifying with historical experiences as being a part of your own history? :undecided:


Quote:

Samurai Drifter said:
Here's a thought experiment: imagine that in the future, there are brain implants invented that record your brain states, exactly as you sense them, and send the information to a storage device. Later, others can plug into that storage device and experience the same brain-states, effectively allowing them to have the experience exactly as you remember it.

Suddenly memory, the bread-and-butter criteria of personal identity, no longer divides us so absolutely. All memories are actually available for everybody to experience. I can "remember" what happened to you, you can "remember" what happened to me. At that point, given that we're all physically connected, wouldn't it really be like we were all part of one, spatially extended body, with a single mind?


I don't see how the existence of such a device necessitates that we are one body with a single mind..not even the device itself could be considered to have a mind, because all it contains are recorded simulations.


Quote:

Samurai Drifter said:
Well, we don't have a technology like that...


It's possible that such technology is impossible. :grin:


Quote:

Samurai Drifter said:
...but we do have technology that serves a similar purpose (if less reliably/efficiently). We have the written word, pictures, video, sound recording -- allowing certain events to be experienced at least approximately to how they were originally. So we're still connected, but our memory isn't nearly as clear.

The point of discussing this connection that we all share, along with our knowledge of history and our incorporation of history into our identities, is to show that experiences and identities already extend beyond the lifespan of a single individual.


I'm somewhat puzzled about what you mean by "incorporating history into our identities"..does merely being aware of certain historical events mean that one has incorporated those events into their identity IYO?

What do you mean by "extend beyond the lifespan of a single individual"? Do you mean to say that they (experiences) occurred before birth?


Quote:

Samurai Drifter said:
Quote:

What do you mean by "objectively decided"? I believe that the distinctions I perceive very likely exist in an objective universe..I don't believe that there is an objective universe where the distinctions I perceive are non-existent.




A lot of the problem here is with the dualistic distinction between subject and object. All objects are perceived in relation to the thing that's looking at them (when you look at something through a blue-colored lens, it will appear blue to you; similarly, everything we perceive is dependent upon our ability to sense it in that way).


Sure, but this in no way proves that the distinctions I perceive do not actually exist in an objective universe.

I don't see the distinction between subject and object as being problematic whatsoever..if anything, the distinction assists in the clarification of certain discussions that have gone all but stagnant. My subjective experience is a given to me, I know it exists; I can't possibly know for sure if there is an objective reality "behind" my perceptions, but IMO logic denotes that there most likely is. This is why I do not see the distinction under discussion as being problematic.


Quote:

Samurai Drifter said:
I question the assertion that there are two fundamentally opposed kinds of things: objective things and subjective things. This assertion is dualistic. All information that we have, upon which our entire worldview has been based, is formed from our subjective perspective, and all measurements are made using senses.


I don't see objectivity and subjectivity as being fundamentally opposed, they are simply just two distinct phenomena. IMO, subjective experience arises from objective phenomena (i.e. a functioning brain), so they are not fundamentally opposed.


Quote:

Samurai Drifter said:
Approaching from the objective angle, let's begin with a few points:

1. Everything that you know, or think you know, is drawn from the pool of human knowledge, including all statements that assert are true or false (i.e. you and I are different people, the speed of light is 299,792,458 m/s, etc.) Your entire picture of the world is based upon such value statements.
2. Human knowledge (from which these value statements originate) is constructed based on measurements gained from senses.
3. The qualities of senses are entirely dependent upon the physical make-up of sense organs.

It seems, then, that everything you think you know is based on the physical make-up of your sense organs. Well, different animals have different modes of sensory input. Even among people, there are different ways of sensing (some people are blind, deaf, etc). These differences in sensory perception cause a completely different picture of the world to exist for that person.

So, the world perceived is entirely dependent upon the subject perceiving it. Objectivity becomes nothing more than the sum of all subjectivities.


The idea of an objective universe is hypothetical..very probably true, but still hypothetical (since there is absolutely no way to prove it). Sure, the concept of objectivity, as you say, becomes nothing more than the sum of all subjectivities, but this doesn't mean that actual objectivity itself, if it exists, is nothing more than the sum of all subjectivities.


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

Edited by Poid (05/29/11 03:55 PM)

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Re: anyone move past death anxiety? [Re: Poid]
    #14532421 - 05/29/11 07:08 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

some fear will always be present in death, or any unknown for that matter. nothing wrong with that imo


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