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OfflinexFrockx
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Re: The Present Outcome of Psychoanalysis [Re: Icelander]
    #14536725 - 05/30/11 04:41 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

What do you mean?


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: The Present Outcome of Psychoanalysis [Re: xFrockx]
    #14536733 - 05/30/11 04:46 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

I think what you are saying might make sense. I'm going to have to think on it.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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OfflinexFrockx
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Re: The Present Outcome of Psychoanalysis [Re: Icelander]
    #14536742 - 05/30/11 04:48 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

What am I saying?


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Offlinezoomfan
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Re: The Present Outcome of Psychoanalysis [Re: Icelander]
    #14536745 - 05/30/11 04:49 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
I think what you are saying might make sense. I'm going to have to think on it.




hahah


--------------------
Thinking is dreaming wake up and enjoy the dream.


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: The Present Outcome of Psychoanalysis [Re: xFrockx]
    #14536750 - 05/30/11 04:50 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

I'm not completely sure, that's why I want to think about it before responding.

Actually I may never know what you are saying but I'm going to make a guess.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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OfflineGrapefruit
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Re: The Present Outcome of Psychoanalysis [Re: Icelander]
    #14536767 - 05/30/11 04:57 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

What makes not knowing scary?




I'm not sure about that but for most people it's a very hard thing to even admit they ultimately don't know. Many of those who do admit it find it very hard to cope with. I think if we knew the truth of everything for a fact there would be nothing to fear because that question "What is there other than, what is there beneath and behind." is what creates the fear.

It's the driving force of almost all human endeavour IMO, art is looking for that science is looking for that religion is looking for that, psychology is looking for that, spirituality. Even seemingly innocent things such as a career or a hobby are driven by the need to "make something out of" your reality I've never met a human completely without that drive.


--------------------
Little left in the way of energy; or the way of love, yet happy to entertain myself playing mental games with the rest of you freaks until the rivers run backwards. 

"Chat your fraff
Chat your fraff
Just chat your fraff
Chat your fraff"


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: The Present Outcome of Psychoanalysis [Re: xFrockx]
    #14536798 - 05/30/11 05:05 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

xFrockx said:
To respond to it, I don't know how we're even judging how close one is to "the truth". What is the truth? I have no fucking idea.

"All fear is fear of the unknown."

Why fear the unknown? What makes not knowing scary? I don't know if it is. I would think that to fear anything one must think they know something, and perhaps the combination of known and unknown is what creates the feeling, but I don't know. But I don't know anything, so I don't have anything to fear. If I thought I knew somethings I would maybe experience fear or anxiety when those things were challenged. If I thought I knew everything I would always be in a state of maintained fear combined with constant rationalization. Sound familiar?





That quote that all fear is of the unknown is not my quote but it might be true.  When I was young I had a fear of the dark.  It was because I couldn't see what was there but I did imagine things that could be there. This is why what you say may be valid at some level. 

Now I can say I don't know anything for sure and I do say that but that "belief" has never made me fearless. So something else must be going on there.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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OfflinexFrockx
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Re: The Present Outcome of Psychoanalysis [Re: Icelander]
    #14536800 - 05/30/11 05:06 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Its not so much a conclusion, I was just telling you how I would feel given certain circumstances.

"Now I can say I don't know anything for sure and I do say that but that "belief" has never made me fearless. "

Then you aren't ignorant enough I don't think. Its one thing to say you don't really know anything, its another to abstain from bullshitting yourself.



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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: The Present Outcome of Psychoanalysis [Re: xFrockx]
    #14536806 - 05/30/11 05:07 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

I got that. I'm still not sure myself. It's a very interesting question.  Is it fear of the unknown or fear of what we imagine we know?


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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InvisiblePoid
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Re: The Present Outcome of Psychoanalysis [Re: Icelander]
    #14537187 - 05/30/11 06:39 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

xFrockx said:
If I thought I knew everything I would always be in a state of maintained fear combined with constant rationalization. Sound familiar?


Yeah, the constant rationalization part sounds like me..I don't think I know everything, though, and I'm not always in a state of maintained fear.


Quote:

Icelander said:
Is it fear of the unknown or fear of what we imagine we know?


It's probably fear of having what we imagine we know be teared to shreds..not all unknowns are fear-provoking.


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.


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OfflinexFrockx
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Re: The Present Outcome of Psychoanalysis [Re: Icelander]
    #14537203 - 05/30/11 06:44 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Well to say fear is "Fear of _____" is to use a circular definition, isn't it? Fear is fear.  Its not the same every time either, and not the same stuff happens every time it happens, this much we are aware of, no? I can remember times when I was afraid. When I was little I would cover myself in a blanket because I thought aliens might come get me in the night. I didn't know what they would do, but I thought I knew what they might do. I would think in circles, think the aliens might be good, might be bad, and I would think all these thoughts and feel feelings along with them. Its like tripping on words. Know how people feel good when they talk about their favorite team winning a game? Its like the words they use to describe the event are imbued with the feeling they had of witnessing the actual event, or otherwise becoming aware of it. Talking about a hated team beating your favorite team in some people might produce bad feelings, while in other people it might produce a sense of historical rivalry without strong emotions. What determines how we feel about these things? Some of us say to ourselves things like "I love that team" or "It's just a game" and that changes our feelings, or reflects what was already there. Its almost like we all have some form of a pallet of emotions, like an artist has a pallet of paints. We can use them to create a mental image and combine them in various ways to create an absolutely infinite variety of feelings, just as an artist can paint with endless variety using a pallet of colors. Its just an analogy, but when it comes down to it there is no such thing as "fear" or "happiness" but rather many individual moments in which we experience something we feel.

I don't know the causes.


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: The Present Outcome of Psychoanalysis [Re: xFrockx]
    #14537242 - 05/30/11 06:51 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

So if you have a knee jerk reaction to a fast car coming at you there is no fear?


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Invisiblep_walter
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Re: The Present Outcome of Psychoanalysis [Re: xFrockx]
    #14537262 - 05/30/11 06:55 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

The "fear of ________ is fear of the unknown" thing is basically this: you were scared of aliens because you didn't know what they would do; I mean shit, they could do anything, rape you maybe, right? Not knowing what would happen is scary. So it's not necessarily circular reasoning, but is arguable at best. What if you did know exactly what was going to happen; they were planning on raping yo' ass. I don't know about you, but I would still be fuckin' scared of aliens.


--------------------
Coaster said: so i got free drug coupons witch u floozies refer to as "money"....


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InvisiblePoid
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Re: The Present Outcome of Psychoanalysis [Re: xFrockx]
    #14537302 - 05/30/11 07:02 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

xFrockx said:
Its just an analogy, but when it comes down to it there is no such thing as "fear" or "happiness" but rather many individual moments in which we experience something we feel.


Yeah, and we categorize each distinct type of feeling..some feelings fall under the "fear" category, others fall under the "happiness" category, and still others fall under other categories.


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.


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OfflinexFrockx
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Re: The Present Outcome of Psychoanalysis [Re: Icelander]
    #14537378 - 05/30/11 07:20 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

"So if you have a knee jerk reaction to a fast car coming at you there is no fear? "

Well what is fear? There would be a feeling for sure, but if I did it again to another car the feeling would be slightly different. I don't think feelings are as clear cut as our language makes them out to be. You know of Heraclitus. If we can't step into the same river twice how do we ever feel the same emotion twice? Personally, I don't think I do. There's a lot of gap-filling there.


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: The Present Outcome of Psychoanalysis [Re: xFrockx]
    #14537387 - 05/30/11 07:22 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

What is the point of this nit picking? Serious question.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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OfflinexFrockx
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Re: The Present Outcome of Psychoanalysis [Re: Poid]
    #14537397 - 05/30/11 07:24 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

"and we categorize each distinct type of feeling"

Don't speak for me bro. We can categorize them with language, but we don't have to.


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OfflinexFrockx
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Re: The Present Outcome of Psychoanalysis [Re: Icelander]
    #14537403 - 05/30/11 07:25 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

It feels much better to be deloused. Less itchy.


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: The Present Outcome of Psychoanalysis [Re: xFrockx]
    #14537411 - 05/30/11 07:27 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

What's that supposed to mean?


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Offline4896744
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Re: The Present Outcome of Psychoanalysis [Re: Icelander]
    #14537414 - 05/30/11 07:28 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
If man is the more normal, healthy and happy, the more he can...successfully...repress, displace, deny, rationalize, dramatize himself and deceive others, then it follows that the suffering of the neurotic comes...from painful truth...Spiritually the neurotic has been long since where psychoanalysis wants to bring him without being able to, namely at the point of seeing through the deception of the world of sense, the falsity of reality. He suffers, not from all the pathological mechanisms which are psychically necessary for living and wholesome but in the refusal of these mechanisms which is just what robs him of the illusions important for living...[He] is much nearer to the actual truth psychologically than the others and it is just that from which he suffers. - Otto Rank

Discuss




Well i feel using the term "neurotic" is a little vague, but i agree with what becker is getting at. It fits with my idea that the "smart" life choice would be something along the lines of a hardworking and devout Christian.


--------------------
Live your Life! :heart:


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