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Mufungo
Coming at ya


Registered: 04/03/07
Posts: 2,743
Loc: Knowhere
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All drugs should be legalised... debate.
#14529539 - 05/29/11 06:11 AM (12 years, 8 months ago) |
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I heard this very debate on the radio last week... http://www.abc.net.au/rn/bigideas/stories/2011/3221559.htm
I won't say which side won the debate. I know this site might be swayed towards the affirmative, but I wondered if anyone here would disagree with all drugs being legalised? If so, what's the argument which supports the opinion that they shouldn't be legalised?
I am for all drugs being legalised based on a) prohibition hasn't worked at reducing drug consumption b) making drugs legal would cut the cost on policing drugs c) making drugs legal would free up funds that could be directed towards harm minimisation projects d) countries that have legalised all drugs have had positive outcomes e) the current system makes a criminal out of a huge proportion of society who partakes in drug consumption f) the current system makes drugs more expensive g) the current system is missing out on a potential tax revenue h) the current system makes it more difficult for people to get help when they need it for fear of getting in trouble with the law i) criminal syndicates get some of their funding through the sale of drugs, which could be greatly reduced if drugs were legal
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery



Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
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Re: All drugs should be legalised... debate. [Re: Mufungo] 1
#14529571 - 05/29/11 06:30 AM (12 years, 8 months ago) |
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This is a no brainer
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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LunarEclipse
Enlil's Official Story


Registered: 10/31/04
Posts: 21,407
Loc: Building 7
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Re: All drugs should be legalised... debate. [Re: Icelander] 1
#14529961 - 05/29/11 09:46 AM (12 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
Icelander said: This is a no brainer
Then I won't be debating with you on it. You always win the no brainer discussions.
-------------------- Anxiety is what you make it.
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery



Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
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Re: All drugs should be legalised... debate. [Re: LunarEclipse]
#14530005 - 05/29/11 10:09 AM (12 years, 8 months ago) |
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Thank you.
Turns out my lack of brains is a big plus.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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nemesis94
Stranger



Registered: 07/12/10
Posts: 40
Last seen: 7 months, 11 days
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Re: All drugs should be legalised... debate. [Re: Icelander]
#14533162 - 05/29/11 09:34 PM (12 years, 8 months ago) |
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I disagree. Sure alot of drugs should be legalized but just imagine if anybody could get their hands on PCP whenever they wanted. Thats a no-no
-------------------- ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ "It's just simply it's"
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foliocb
always running



Registered: 07/14/08
Posts: 1,152
Last seen: 7 years, 1 month
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Re: All drugs should be legalised... debate. [Re: nemesis94]
#14533191 - 05/29/11 09:39 PM (12 years, 8 months ago) |
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Thats their problem. Natural selection will weed out stupid people who want to do destructive drugs. Heroin is illegal but it doesn't stop people from obtaining it now.
-------------------- ^v^
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery



Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
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Re: All drugs should be legalised... debate. [Re: nemesis94] 1
#14533212 - 05/29/11 09:44 PM (12 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
nemesis94 said: I disagree. Sure alot of drugs should be legalized but just imagine if anybody could get their hands on PCP whenever they wanted. Thats a no-no 
It's not a no no. If I become violent then I'll get busted and do time.
I can buy a car and that can kill. I can buy a gun and that can kill. I can buy hornet spray and that can kill. And especially I can buy alcohol which is involved in tons of crimes, accidents, and violent acts.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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deranger

Registered: 01/21/08
Posts: 6,840
Loc: off the wall
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Re: All drugs should be legalised... debate. [Re: Mufungo]
#14533231 - 05/29/11 09:47 PM (12 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
Mufungo said: I heard this very debate on the radio last week... http://www.abc.net.au/rn/bigideas/stories/2011/3221559.htm
I won't say which side won the debate. I know this site might be swayed towards the affirmative, but I wondered if anyone here would disagree with all drugs being legalised? If so, what's the argument which supports the opinion that they shouldn't be legalised?
I am for all drugs being legalised based on a) prohibition hasn't worked at reducing drug consumption b) making drugs legal would cut the cost on policing drugs c) making drugs legal would free up funds that could be directed towards harm minimisation projects d) countries that have legalised all drugs have had positive outcomes e) the current system makes a criminal out of a huge proportion of society who partakes in drug consumption f) the current system makes drugs more expensive g) the current system is missing out on a potential tax revenue h) the current system makes it more difficult for people to get help when they need it for fear of getting in trouble with the law i) criminal syndicates get some of their funding through the sale of drugs, which could be greatly reduced if drugs were legal
Hey Mu,
Not sure if you've seen this thread already but it's got the counter arguments -
http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/7874721
What I wonder is, if all drugs did become legal, what category of drugs would the majority be using and what would our children be like 100's of years down the road Interesting thought.
Edited by deranger (05/29/11 09:47 PM)
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deranger

Registered: 01/21/08
Posts: 6,840
Loc: off the wall
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Re: All drugs should be legalised... debate. [Re: nemesis94]
#14533248 - 05/29/11 09:50 PM (12 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
nemesis94 said: I disagree. Sure alot of drugs should be legalized but just imagine if anybody could get their hands on PCP whenever they wanted. Thats a no-no 
I used to get my hands on PCP anytime I wanted, though it was a yes-yes, every time
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Poid
Shroomery's #1 Spellir




Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 40,372
Loc: SF Bay Area
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Re: All drugs should be legalised... debate. [Re: nemesis94] 1
#14533393 - 05/29/11 10:25 PM (12 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
nemesis94 said: I disagree. Sure alot of drugs should be legalized but just imagine if anybody could get their hands on PCP whenever they wanted. Thats a no-no 
Why is that a no-no? Just because you yourself don't like PCP? I suppose all the drugs you do like are yes-yeses?
-------------------- Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. -- Bob Dylan  fireworks_god said:It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.
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don_vedo
MerKaBa


Registered: 05/12/11
Posts: 1,383
Loc: 5th dimension
Last seen: 3 years, 9 months
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Re: All drugs should be legalised... debate. [Re: Icelander] 1
#14533619 - 05/29/11 11:19 PM (12 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
Icelander said: I can buy a car and that can kill. I can buy a gun and that can kill. I can buy hornet spray and that can kill. And especially I can buy alcohol which is involved in tons of crimes, accidents, and violent acts.
I like that
-------------------- Our deepest fear is not that we are inadequate. Our deepest fear is that we are powerful beyond measure. We ask ourselves, Who am I to be brilliant, gorgeous, talented, fabulous? Actually, who are you not to be? We were born to make manifest the glory of God that is within us all. And as we let our own light shine, we unconsciously give other people permission to do the same.
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Poid
Shroomery's #1 Spellir




Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 40,372
Loc: SF Bay Area
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Re: All drugs should be legalised... debate. [Re: don_vedo]
#14533662 - 05/29/11 11:28 PM (12 years, 8 months ago) |
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You spelled his last name wrong..it's Vito, not Vedo.

-------------------- Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. -- Bob Dylan  fireworks_god said:It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.
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Silversoul
Rhizome


Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 23,576
Loc: The Barricades
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Re: All drugs should be legalised... debate. [Re: Mufungo]
#14533871 - 05/30/11 12:08 AM (12 years, 8 months ago) |
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I'm all for decriminalizing all drugs(not going after people for possession) as Portugal has done. Legalization is another matter. Legalization involves the actual sale of drugs. It also happens to be a matter of degree, and I think there should be a sliding scale in terms of the availability of drugs. Plainly put, I don't think heroin should not be as readily available as cannabis. I do think doctors should be able to prescribe maintenance doses to addicts. Perhaps it should even be available through mail order. But I would hesitate to allow it to be sold in supermarkets. There may be an argument to be made in favor of that, and perhaps supermarkets would choose not to sell it anyway, but I'd be a bit hesitant to go forward with a full-fledged "anything goes" attitude.
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Poid
Shroomery's #1 Spellir




Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 40,372
Loc: SF Bay Area
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Re: All drugs should be legalised... debate. [Re: Silversoul]
#14533904 - 05/30/11 12:16 AM (12 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
Silversoul said: But I would hesitate to allow it to be sold in supermarkets. There may be an argument to be made in favor of that, and perhaps supermarkets would choose not to sell it anyway, but I'd be a bit hesitant to go forward with a full-fledged "anything goes" attitude.
Care to explain why?
-------------------- Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. -- Bob Dylan  fireworks_god said:It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.
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don_vedo
MerKaBa


Registered: 05/12/11
Posts: 1,383
Loc: 5th dimension
Last seen: 3 years, 9 months
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Re: All drugs should be legalised... debate. [Re: Poid]
#14534004 - 05/30/11 12:44 AM (12 years, 8 months ago) |
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Poid said: You spelled his last name wrong..it's Vito, not Vedo.
Hahaha well it's a good thing I wasn't basing the name off that guy. Vedo = childhood nickname, I was reppin the Don_Vedo long before that guy got famous.
-------------------- Our deepest fear is not that we are inadequate. Our deepest fear is that we are powerful beyond measure. We ask ourselves, Who am I to be brilliant, gorgeous, talented, fabulous? Actually, who are you not to be? We were born to make manifest the glory of God that is within us all. And as we let our own light shine, we unconsciously give other people permission to do the same.
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Poid
Shroomery's #1 Spellir




Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 40,372
Loc: SF Bay Area
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Re: All drugs should be legalised... debate. [Re: don_vedo]
#14534051 - 05/30/11 01:01 AM (12 years, 8 months ago) |
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Oh, lol, I totally thought the chances that you weren't basing your name off him were incredibly miniscule, it seemed like too much of a coincidence for me. 
Carry on, good sir.
-------------------- Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. -- Bob Dylan  fireworks_god said:It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.
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Simms
Fuckwit


Registered: 11/17/08
Posts: 1,109
Loc: Somewhere in Europe
Last seen: 2 years, 6 months
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Re: All drugs should be legalised... debate. [Re: Mufungo]
#14534094 - 05/30/11 01:23 AM (12 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
Mufungo said: I heard this very debate on the radio last week... http://www.abc.net.au/rn/bigideas/stories/2011/3221559.htm
I won't say which side won the debate. I know this site might be swayed towards the affirmative, but I wondered if anyone here would disagree with all drugs being legalised? If so, what's the argument which supports the opinion that they shouldn't be legalised?
I am for all drugs being legalised based on a) prohibition hasn't worked at reducing drug consumption b) making drugs legal would cut the cost on policing drugs c) making drugs legal would free up funds that could be directed towards harm minimisation projects d) countries that have legalised all drugs have had positive outcomes e) the current system makes a criminal out of a huge proportion of society who partakes in drug consumption f) the current system makes drugs more expensive g) the current system is missing out on a potential tax revenue h) the current system makes it more difficult for people to get help when they need it for fear of getting in trouble with the law i) criminal syndicates get some of their funding through the sale of drugs, which could be greatly reduced if drugs were legal
I think drugs should not be legalized because there shouldn't be anyone that has such power in the first place. Somehow, we are all prisoners, someone else decides our freedom. This is not life, this is prison.
"Oh but people could hurt themselves with drugs.." yeah, sure, thats their problem, isn't it? Or should it be your problem?
--------------------
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Poid
Shroomery's #1 Spellir




Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 40,372
Loc: SF Bay Area
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Re: All drugs should be legalised... debate. [Re: Simms]
#14534111 - 05/30/11 01:30 AM (12 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
Simms said: I think drugs should not be legalized because there shouldn't be anyone that has such power in the first place. Somehow, we are all prisoners, someone else decides our freedom. This is not life, this is prison.
So you would prefer living in a free-for-all, anarchistic, survival-of-the-fittest environment to living in a relatively safe environment regulated by laws? The latter may be prison, but the former would be hell..I seriously doubt many humans would live comfortable lives if they lived in the former environment.
-------------------- Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. -- Bob Dylan  fireworks_god said:It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.
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johnm214


Registered: 05/31/07
Posts: 17,582
Loc: Americas
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Re: All drugs should be legalised... debate. [Re: Silversoul]
#14534137 - 05/30/11 01:41 AM (12 years, 8 months ago) |
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Duplicate
Edited by johnm214 (05/30/11 09:23 AM)
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johnm214


Registered: 05/31/07
Posts: 17,582
Loc: Americas
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Re: All drugs should be legalised... debate. [Re: johnm214]
#14534145 - 05/30/11 01:44 AM (12 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
nemesis94 said: I disagree. Sure alot of drugs should be legalized but just imagine if anybody could get their hands on PCP whenever they wanted. Thats a no-no 
My drugs are better than your drugs.
I should be left alone for enjoying my coffee and prozac, but you should be jailed, you dirty swine!
How absurd.
Quote:
Silversoul said: I'm all for decriminalizing all drugs(not going after people for possession) as Portugal has done. Legalization is another matter. Legalization involves the actual sale of drugs.
Uh, how does prohibition or decriminalization not involve the sale of drugs? I can't understand these strange one-sided anlysises that seem to be part and parcel of examining the war on drugs. People only apply their criteria to one case, say legalization, but not to the alternative(s) Drugs are sold in both legalized and prohibitionary jurisdictions: your argument therefore has no relevance. The only thing we can gather from this irrational argument (other than the delusion that drugs aren't sold if they are prohibited) is that you somehow regard illegal, clandestine, drug production and sale, along with all the overdoses, poisonings, and dirty products, somehow superior to lawful, regulated commerce. What a strange view
Quote:
It also happens to be a matter of degree, and I think there should be a sliding scale in terms of the availability of drugs. Plainly put
So, yeah: prohibiton You can speak of sliding scales all you want, but this continues the stupid presumption that you can stop people from selling the drugs you seem to arbitrarily disfavor. Reality has, fortunately, utterly destroyed any notion that this is possible.
How exactly do you enact this 'sliding scale': continuing the jailings, the asset seizure, and the terrible penalties enacted on someone who's not harmed anyone? yeah, great plan. If you prohibit something, you must apply some penalty to those who break the prohibition, and this is a large part of the problem, as well as the creation of the illegal gangs who provide what you've decided to not allow on apparently arbitrary grounds.
Quote:
, I don't think heroin should not be as readily available as cannabis. I do think doctors should be able to prescribe maintenance doses to addicts. Perhaps it should even be available through mail order. But I would hesitate to allow it to be sold in supermarkets.
There may be an argument to be made in favor of that, and perhaps supermarkets would choose not to sell it anyway, but I'd be a bit hesitant to go forward with a full-fledged "anything goes" attitude.
Well, if your hesitant, then shit... lock em all up, take their assets, certainly 
What you've said is not at all an argument: just a statement of preference. Marijuana causes far more harm than heroin, and far more addictions. Moreover, your suggestion of decriinalization leaves the tremendous drain on our society that is the economic and financial cost of the war on drugs and continues the criminal syndicates causing violence and harm. Finally, you still apparently support prohibition and jailing, asset seizure, as you don't want them in supermarkets- as if that's any of your buisness what some guy wants to sell in his store. What exactly are you going to do to keep the 'naughty substances' out of supermarkets? Yeah, same things as occurs now in prohibition: its immoral
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Simms
Fuckwit


Registered: 11/17/08
Posts: 1,109
Loc: Somewhere in Europe
Last seen: 2 years, 6 months
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Re: All drugs should be legalised... debate. [Re: Poid]
#14534151 - 05/30/11 01:47 AM (12 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
Poid said:
Quote:
Simms said: I think drugs should not be legalized because there shouldn't be anyone that has such power in the first place. Somehow, we are all prisoners, someone else decides our freedom. This is not life, this is prison.
So you would prefer living in a free-for-all, anarchistic, survival-of-the-fittest environment to living in a relatively safe environment regulated by laws? The latter may be prison, but the former would be hell..I seriously doubt many humans would live comfortable lives if they lived in the former environment.
I choose hell, Yes.
This state, where we are now, is denial of our natural state. If without this "safe enviornment" we would turn crazy, then its a state of progression which shall come to natural end eventually.
99% of worlds problems is caused by 0,001% of people on this planet -- the world leaders. Sure, people have conflicts, fights, murders, tortures etc. But only world leaders are able to control enough amount of people to destroy a nation, make a war.
I ask you, do you see yourself as a chaos emitting life-destroying entity in such anarchistic world? Is it fear that drives other people crazy, causing "unmoral" deeds, eventually turning everyone crazy because of the fear of others? Where would it lead?
Edited by Simms (05/30/11 02:01 AM)
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Poid
Shroomery's #1 Spellir




Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 40,372
Loc: SF Bay Area
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Re: All drugs should be legalised... debate. [Re: Simms]
#14534174 - 05/30/11 02:03 AM (12 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
johnm214 said:
Quote:
nemesis94 said: I disagree. Sure alot of drugs should be legalized but just imagine if anybody could get their hands on PCP whenever they wanted. Thats a no-no 
My drugs are better than your drugs.
I should be left alone for enjoying my coffee and prozac, but you should be jailed, you dirty swine!
How absurd.

Quote:
Simms said:
Quote:
Poid said:
Quote:
Simms said: I think drugs should not be legalized because there shouldn't be anyone that has such power in the first place. Somehow, we are all prisoners, someone else decides our freedom. This is not life, this is prison.
So you would prefer living in a free-for-all, anarchistic, survival-of-the-fittest environment to living in a relatively safe environment regulated by laws? The latter may be prison, but the former would be hell..I seriously doubt many humans would live comfortable lives if they lived in the former environment.
I choose hell, Yes.
Bullshit, I don't believe you one fucking bit. I'll bet you $1 million that you would shit your pants if things suddenly became more anarchistic, and governments started toppling over.
Why would you not choose the lesser of two evils? What kind of point are you trying to make, and to whom? 
Quote:
Simms said: This state, where we are now, is denial of our natural state.
Define "natural state", then explain to me how any state can be unnatural.
Quote:
Simms said: If without this "safe enviornment" we would turn crazy, then its a state of progression which shall come to natural end eventually.
We wouldn't "turn crazy"..our craziness exists regardless of whether or not there is law to suppress it, total anarchy would just allow our innate craziness to rise to the surface.
We have been progressing for a long time now, and the pattern of progression has leaned toward the establishment of government rather than toward the annihilation of government..if we start annihilating our governments, that would not be progression, at least not in relation to all the progress humans have made thus far, it would be regression.
Chances are if things regress that way, the human race will meet a doom from which it will never return. 
Quote:
Simms said: 99% of worlds problems is caused by 0,001% of people on this planet -- the world leaders.
Do you have any evidence for this statement, or did you just pull it out of your ass or something? 
Quote:
Simms said: But only world leaders are able to control enough amount of people to destroy a nation, make a war.
So you prefer anarchy, a state in which individuals are constantly at war with their own neighbors, to what we have today, a state where the common citizen never has to experience war in his/her life? My, you're a compassionate one.
-------------------- Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. -- Bob Dylan  fireworks_god said:It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.
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Grapefruit
Freak in the forest



Registered: 05/09/08
Posts: 5,744
Last seen: 3 years, 1 month
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Re: All drugs should be legalised... debate. [Re: Poid]
#14534364 - 05/30/11 03:44 AM (12 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
Define "natural state", then explain to me how any state can be unnatural.
Just to pick this one up for myself (not to reply for Simms) the natural state to me means a state free of any attachments to the ego, a state with discontinuous thinking where the ego arises only when needed. Whether it is possible I'm not entirely sure but I think maybe.
Of course no state can be unnatural in a general sense but in the relative sense of the above state being free from the stranglehold of culture it is more "natural".
"There is only the one thought, "How?" The one question that this organism is interested in is, "How to throw off the whole thraldom, the whole strangling influence of culture?" That question is the only question this organism has—not as a word, not as a thought—the whole human organism is that one question. I don't know whether I make myself clear. That is the one question, you see, which is throbbing, pulsating in every cell, in the very marrow of your bones, trying to free itself from this stranglehold. That is the one question, the one thought. That is the saviour. That question finds that it has no way of finding an answer, that it is impossible for that question to do anything, so it explodes. When it has no way to move, no space, the 'explosion' takes place. That 'explosion' is like a nuclear explosion. That breaks the continuity of thought." -UGK
"No more fighting no more fancy dress this other kingdom seems by far the best Untill it's other jaw reveals incest and a loose obidience to a vegetable law I will not go prefer a feast of freinds to the giant family." -JM
-------------------- Little left in the way of energy; or the way of love, yet happy to entertain myself playing mental games with the rest of you freaks until the rivers run backwards. "Chat your fraff Chat your fraff Just chat your fraff Chat your fraff"
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Poid
Shroomery's #1 Spellir




Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 40,372
Loc: SF Bay Area
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Re: All drugs should be legalised... debate. [Re: Grapefruit]
#14534419 - 05/30/11 04:26 AM (12 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
Grapefruit said:
Quote:
Define "natural state", then explain to me how any state can be unnatural.
Just to pick this one up for myself (not to reply for Simms) the natural state to me means a state free of any attachments to the ego, a state with discontinuous thinking where the ego arises only when needed. Whether it is possible I'm not entirely sure but I think maybe.
Of course no state can be unnatural in a general sense but in the relative sense of the above state being free from the stranglehold of culture it is more "natural".
Humans have been strangled by their own cultures since the dawn of man..seems to be the natural state of things for us.
-------------------- Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. -- Bob Dylan  fireworks_god said:It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.
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Grapefruit
Freak in the forest



Registered: 05/09/08
Posts: 5,744
Last seen: 3 years, 1 month
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Re: All drugs should be legalised... debate. [Re: Poid]
#14534438 - 05/30/11 04:46 AM (12 years, 8 months ago) |
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Perhaps so. In any case I think that's what is meant by the term for some, I didn't really read Simms post so I don't know if it fits for him.
-------------------- Little left in the way of energy; or the way of love, yet happy to entertain myself playing mental games with the rest of you freaks until the rivers run backwards. "Chat your fraff Chat your fraff Just chat your fraff Chat your fraff"
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery



Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
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Re: All drugs should be legalised... debate. [Re: Silversoul] 1
#14534580 - 05/30/11 06:27 AM (12 years, 8 months ago) |
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Silversoul said: I'm all for decriminalizing all drugs(not going after people for possession) as Portugal has done. Legalization is another matter. Legalization involves the actual sale of drugs. It also happens to be a matter of degree, and I think there should be a sliding scale in terms of the availability of drugs. Plainly put, I don't think heroin should not be as readily available as cannabis. I do think doctors should be able to prescribe maintenance doses to addicts. Perhaps it should even be available through mail order. But I would hesitate to allow it to be sold in supermarkets. There may be an argument to be made in favor of that, and perhaps supermarkets would choose not to sell it anyway, but I'd be a bit hesitant to go forward with a full-fledged "anything goes" attitude.
I love it how people who get pissy that their favorite drug is illegal get all uptight but then want to ban other drugs that others use.
If the sale of drugs were illegal but the use legal you would be condemning the very folk who bring you your medicine to a criminal life or putting it in the hands of the authorities which we know we can all trust to have our best interest at heart.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Mufungo
Coming at ya


Registered: 04/03/07
Posts: 2,743
Loc: Knowhere
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Re: All drugs should be legalised... debate. [Re: deranger]
#14534691 - 05/30/11 07:36 AM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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deranger said: Hey Mu,
Not sure if you've seen this thread already but it's got the counter arguments -
http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/7874721
What I wonder is, if all drugs did become legal, what category of drugs would the majority be using and what would our children be like 100's of years down the road Interesting thought.
No I hadn't seen that thread, cheers. It certainly is an interesting thought to think of what society would be like 100 years after drug were legalised. Status quo would make me think things would get bad, but based on what has happened so far in countries that have decriminalised them, probably not, maybe things would be much better. Maybe part of the allure and novelty of drugs are that they are illegal, so the "drug culture" might not be around... after all there isn't an "alcohol culture" or a "nicotine culture" is there? Those are kind of blended into culture in general. Every Dutch person I've spoken to hasn't cared much about cannabis, so I wonder if that sort of attitude towards drugs would come out over time. All speculative of course, but it would be a very interesting thing to track over the decades.
Hey has anyone seen this petition? http://www.avaaz.org/en/end_the_war_on_drugs_b/?rc=fb&pv=12 Not sure if it's legit or not, does anyone know?
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Simms
Fuckwit


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Re: All drugs should be legalised... debate. [Re: Poid]
#14534906 - 05/30/11 09:12 AM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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Poid said:
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johnm214 said:
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nemesis94 said: I disagree. Sure alot of drugs should be legalized but just imagine if anybody could get their hands on PCP whenever they wanted. Thats a no-no 
My drugs are better than your drugs.
I should be left alone for enjoying my coffee and prozac, but you should be jailed, you dirty swine!
How absurd.

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Simms said:
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Poid said:
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Simms said: I think drugs should not be legalized because there shouldn't be anyone that has such power in the first place. Somehow, we are all prisoners, someone else decides our freedom. This is not life, this is prison.
So you would prefer living in a free-for-all, anarchistic, survival-of-the-fittest environment to living in a relatively safe environment regulated by laws? The latter may be prison, but the former would be hell..I seriously doubt many humans would live comfortable lives if they lived in the former environment.
I choose hell, Yes.
Bullshit, I don't believe you one fucking bit. I'll bet you $1 million that you would shit your pants if things suddenly became more anarchistic, and governments started toppling over.
Then don't believe it, ones beliefs are their own personal thing.
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Poid said: Why would you not choose the lesser of two evils? What kind of point are you trying to make, and to whom? 
I already told you what point I was trying to make.
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Poid said:
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Simms said: This state, where we are now, is denial of our natural state.
Define "natural state", then explain to me how any state can be unnatural.
We are talking about different things here. You seem to imply human nature in general, but I am talking about an individual, who, according to your understanding which you expressed, is going to do terrible terrible things if laws are taken away. Therefore, since there is free will of how one can be, and no-one in control of what one can do, it is a natural state.
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Poid said:
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Simms said: If without this "safe enviornment" we would turn crazy, then its a state of progression which shall come to natural end eventually.
We wouldn't "turn crazy"..our craziness exists regardless of whether or not there is law to suppress it, total anarchy would just allow our innate craziness to rise to the surface.
We have been progressing for a long time now, and the pattern of progression has leaned toward the establishment of government rather than toward the annihilation of government..if we start annihilating our governments, that would not be progression, at least not in relation to all the progress humans have made thus far, it would be regression.
Chances are if things regress that way, the human race will meet a doom from which it will never return. 
Why do you think regression can not be progression, semantics aside? You also claimed that craziness is our current natural state, which we need to supress, which speaks against your first point.
However, do you think supressing ones mind, wants and morals is progression? I think, we have already regressed. This progression, which you are talking about, only exists in the form of inventions, 100 year old combustion engines, electricity, etc. But human mind has stayed relatively the same. Same wars, as always, after 10 000 years, caused by whom? People?
Information is the basis of universe. And information is the basis of culture. Our current culture, current state does not stand on inventions or material things we have achieved. If one changes one bit of the mindset of one leader, worlds could change drastically. Change the mindset of people, and world will change completely.
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Poid said:
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Simms said: 99% of worlds problems is caused by 0,001% of people on this planet -- the world leaders.
Do you have any evidence for this statement, or did you just pull it out of your ass or something? 
Evidence is pretty abundant, wars, dominant countries importing all the goods from poor areas, causing economical unbalance. I am not going to point it out to you, I am here not to convince you to anything.
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Poid said:
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Simms said: But only world leaders are able to control enough amount of people to destroy a nation, make a war.
So you prefer anarchy, a state in which individuals are constantly at war with their own neighbors, to what we have today, a state where the common citizen never has to experience war in his/her life? My, you're a compassionate one. 
You are making assumptions here. Assumptions come from one persons current mindset, which speaks that human mind has not progressed much over the 10 000 years, so you think it needs to be put in prison. The only logical next step to this is death -- is that what you want? The thing is, though, those who have the power, are in the same mindset who they are controlling.
Humans are generally afraid, afraid of making up their own mind, own morals. In a world without power, the short phrase would be us losing our minds because we panic. Suddenly we'd have to make our own decisions abut what to actually do in life, what to study, what not to do, we get these moral dilemmas also. If a house burns down, there is no-one except you to come and put out the fire. No-one is expecting anything from another. But actually this lets the person grow as an individual. The panic state is ONLY prior to us being used to secure closed enviornment. You let a home mouse out of its cage and it is getting itself killed. But it is possible to train an animal to cope in wilderness.
Most of anarchists come from low-wealth worker class families, me included. What this means, is that most of them are already half-adapted to survival state. For us, if we had to choose a shitty life between closed walls and a shitty life with an actual opportunity to grow as I want, we most definately choose the latter.
There are many forms of anarchism, many of what are speaking of anarchist society. But most of it is nonsense, semantics, and whatnot. Anarchism in its form is a romantic dream, in reality, it can be different than that. What I believe in, is total anarchism.
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery



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Re: All drugs should be legalised... debate. [Re: Simms] 2
#14534954 - 05/30/11 09:28 AM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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Then don't believe it, ones beliefs are their own personal thing.
Well I'm going with Poid here. Plus you shared a personal belief and made it public.
Humans are pretty violent. When the Soviet Union came apart the very first thing may of the individuals did was pick up weapons and try to wipe each other off the map.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Simms
Fuckwit


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Re: All drugs should be legalised... debate. [Re: Icelander]
#14535242 - 05/30/11 10:46 AM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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Icelander said: Then don't believe it, ones beliefs are their own personal thing.
Well I'm going with Poid here. Plus you shared a personal belief and made it public.
Humans are pretty violent. When the Soviet Union came apart the very first thing may of the individuals did was pick up weapons and try to wipe each other off the map.
Well, the same thing existed DURING the soviet union also. What was the second thing? And third thing?
The first thing is a state of panic and a conflict between those who are in the comfort of old regime, trying to establish their comfort again, and between those who have breaken free from their comfort zones towardsing to progression.
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Edited by Simms (05/30/11 10:48 AM)
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Silversoul
Rhizome


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Posts: 23,576
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Re: All drugs should be legalised... debate. [Re: Icelander]
#14535329 - 05/30/11 11:11 AM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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Icelander said:
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Silversoul said: I'm all for decriminalizing all drugs(not going after people for possession) as Portugal has done. Legalization is another matter. Legalization involves the actual sale of drugs. It also happens to be a matter of degree, and I think there should be a sliding scale in terms of the availability of drugs. Plainly put, I don't think heroin should not be as readily available as cannabis. I do think doctors should be able to prescribe maintenance doses to addicts. Perhaps it should even be available through mail order. But I would hesitate to allow it to be sold in supermarkets. There may be an argument to be made in favor of that, and perhaps supermarkets would choose not to sell it anyway, but I'd be a bit hesitant to go forward with a full-fledged "anything goes" attitude.
I love it how people who get pissy that their favorite drug is illegal get all uptight but then want to ban other drugs that others use.
If the sale of drugs were illegal but the use legal you would be condemning the very folk who bring you your medicine to a criminal life or putting it in the hands of the authorities which we know we can all trust to have our best interest at heart.

Apparently people here have trouble reading. I said there were avenues for sale of these drugs that I'd be okay with. Just not out in the open where teenagers can stand outside a 7-11 asking strangers to get it for them. If heroin were available through the same means that many people here get their ethnobotanicals, I'd be okay with that, because it means you'd actually have to know where to look. I'm even open to being convinced that selling it where children can find it will be okay, but instead of trying to make the case, I get a bunch of accusations and slurs instead. Good job. 
BTW, I love how you make the implication that cannabis "my favorite" drug. It's not. I don't even do that stuff anymore. I only do psychedelics and MDMA, and while I don't think they or any other drug should be illegal outright, I'm fine with them being more tightly regulated than cannabis.
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johnm214


Registered: 05/31/07
Posts: 17,582
Loc: Americas
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Re: All drugs should be legalised... debate. [Re: Silversoul]
#14535372 - 05/30/11 11:24 AM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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Silversoul said:
Apparently people here have trouble reading. I said there were avenues for sale of these drugs that I'd be okay with.
No you didn't, you said that 'perhaps' it should be available via mail order, but should be banned in retail. Now apparently your not only fine with it being available via mail order but apparently can be convinced through retail as well. Despite your claim that people have trouble reading, it's you who've changed your claims to only partial prohibition.
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Just not out in the open where teenagers can stand outside a 7-11 asking strangers to get it for them.
Yes, I should be jailed or have my property taken because I decide to sell a substance you don't like in a place, that I own, that you don't like- fantastic. What buisness is it of yours if I buy or sell on my property? I don't have children, why is it my buisness what some kid does, let alone an excuse to burden me with your nanny state policies?
What's your solution? Instead of in person sales where ID can be verified, you promote mail order where a toddler can order whatever he wants: fantastic plan I'm sure kids couldn't figure out how to mail in a money order or use a credit card- except that somehow I could figure it out, much to your dismay apparently.
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If heroin were available through the same means that many people here get their ethnobotanicals, I'd be okay with that
Not per your prior statement
, because it means you'd actually have to know where to look. I'm even open to being convinced that selling it where children can find it will be okay, but instead of trying to make the case, I get a bunch of accusations and slurs instead. Good job. 
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I only do psychedelics and MDMA, and while I don't think they or any other drug should be illegal outright, I'm fine with them being more tightly regulated than cannabis.
Right: you choose to do a neurotoxic amphetamine and that's fine, but nobody better use those 'any other drug[s]' without your permission and in the ways you're comfortable with. Uh huh, so what exactly was misrepresented here? Your a prohibitionist, but it just so happens that the drugs that you wouldn't burden are the drugs you choose to do: including neurotoxic drugs that actually have some evidence of toxic effects.
Seems pretty arbitrary criteria here. I can't use my prozac or take a GHB supplement, but you can keep on buying and selling your MDMA, because... shit, well actually you never provided any reason whatsoever- at all. Great argument 
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Icelander said:
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Silversoul said: I'm all for decriminalizing all drugs(not going after people for possession) as Portugal has done. Legalization is another matter. Legalization involves the actual sale of drugs. It also happens to be a matter of degree, and I think there should be a sliding scale in terms of the availability of drugs. Plainly put, I don't think heroin should not be as readily available as cannabis. I do think doctors should be able to prescribe maintenance doses to addicts. Perhaps it should even be available through mail order. But I would hesitate to allow it to be sold in supermarkets. There may be an argument to be made in favor of that, and perhaps supermarkets would choose not to sell it anyway, but I'd be a bit hesitant to go forward with a full-fledged "anything goes" attitude.
I love it how people who get pissy that their favorite drug is illegal get all uptight but then want to ban other drugs that others use.
If the sale of drugs were illegal but the use legal you would be condemning the very folk who bring you your medicine to a criminal life or putting it in the hands of the authorities which we know we can all trust to have our best interest at heart.

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Silversoul
Rhizome


Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 23,576
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Re: All drugs should be legalised... debate. [Re: johnm214]
#14535452 - 05/30/11 11:44 AM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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All I'm advocating is caution, and all you people do is berate and throw ad hominems. This is not how you get drugs legalized, okay? You need to actually make your case. I'm not saying that any one solution is necessarily the best. The mail-order thing was just a suggestion. I'm honestly unsure what the best strategy is, and I want to see the case made for why a less cautious approach is worth having. But throwing around words like "prohibitionist" does absolutely nothing for your case.
Pretend I'm a soccer mom who's concerned about her kids getting heroin at the supermarket. Make the case for why that fear is unfounded. Keep in mind that kids in this country have greater access to alcohol and cigarettes than to illegal drugs, and that they are more widely used by them than any other substance.
Make your case. Don't just assume that "anything goes" is the default position. Explain why families out in suburban America should be comfortable with your proposal. Keep in mind that the arguments in the OP mainly address issues of criminalization, and that the Portugal model seems to address most of those issues, while prescribing maintenance doses for addicts has proven effective in places like the Netherlands. I'm simply talking about policies that have proven to work, and asking that the case be made why going further than that would be advisable.
I await further twisting of my words.
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery



Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
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Re: All drugs should be legalised... debate. [Re: Simms]
#14535541 - 05/30/11 12:02 PM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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Simms said:
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Icelander said: Then don't believe it, ones beliefs are their own personal thing.
Well I'm going with Poid here. Plus you shared a personal belief and made it public.
Humans are pretty violent. When the Soviet Union came apart the very first thing may of the individuals did was pick up weapons and try to wipe each other off the map.
Well, the same thing existed DURING the soviet union also. What was the second thing? And third thing?
The first thing is a state of panic and a conflict between those who are in the comfort of old regime, trying to establish their comfort again, and between those who have breaken free from their comfort zones towardsing to progression.
History doesn't show a lot of moving away from violence with regime change.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery



Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
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Re: All drugs should be legalised... debate. [Re: Silversoul]
#14535588 - 05/30/11 12:10 PM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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Never meant to imply anything about which drug is your favorite.
And why not out in the open? It's up to parents to work with children on what is safe and what is not. Your safe avenues if I remember correctly included govt control.
And I made a case in argument that criminalizing sales makes your source into a criminal.
Tighter regulation is how we got into this mess in the first place. When some of these substances were legal you didn't see people dying or going nuts left and right. Controlling substances is about controlling freedoms. It might be nice if people were allowed to control themselves a little more and be controlled by govt a little less.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Silversoul
Rhizome


Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 23,576
Loc: The Barricades
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Re: All drugs should be legalised... debate. [Re: Icelander]
#14535638 - 05/30/11 12:18 PM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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Icelander said: And I made a case in argument that criminalizing sales makes your source into a criminal.
I thought I made myself pretty clear that I'd be open to different ways of permitting the sale of these substances. While I was in the shower, it occurred to me that you could probably dissuade enough first-time users of some of these hard substances simply by regulating them the cigarettes are, so that they're locked behind a plastic case and you have to ask the cashier to get it for you. Maybe even have them out of sight so you have to specifically know what you're looking for before you ask.
James P. Gray, author of Why Our Drug Laws Have Failed: A Judicial Indictment Of War On Drugs suggests that harder drugs be sold in separate stores in plain brown boxes clearly labeled with dosage information, sold by government-authorized facilities at below market price so that no street dealer can make a profit off of it. That's actually a little bit more restrictive than what I'd like, but that's the kind of comprehensive thinking I'm talking about.
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Tighter regulation is how we got into this mess in the first place. When some of these substances were legal you didn't see people dying or going nuts left and right.
Actually, drug addiction first became a real problem in the 19th century, when there were no regulations.
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Controlling substances is about controlling freedoms. It might be nice if people were allowed to control themselves a little more and be controlled by govt a little less.
I understand this sentiment, and I'd like to agree with it, but there are issues that come up that I don't think can be resolved simply by chanting "freedom" and assuming everything will just work out alright.
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Edited by Silversoul (05/30/11 12:26 PM)
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery



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Posts: 95,368
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Re: All drugs should be legalised... debate. [Re: Silversoul]
#14535835 - 05/30/11 12:56 PM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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Drug addiction is a personal problem not a govt one. Should we regulate chocolate and alcohol and any other thing one can become addicted to.
My personal view is let people take responsibility and consequences for what goes into their bodies. There will be some fallout of course but that's perfectly natural.
I'm willing to take my chances on self responsibility. If I OD or become an addict I'll have to deal.
The trouble with regulation is someone else decides what is good or bad, too much, etc.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Silversoul
Rhizome


Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 23,576
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Re: All drugs should be legalised... debate. [Re: Icelander]
#14535880 - 05/30/11 01:02 PM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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Icelander said: Drug addiction is a personal problem not a govt one. Should we regulate chocolate and alcohol and any other thing one can become addicted to.
My personal view is let people take responsibility and consequences for what goes into their bodies. There will be some fallout of course but that's perfectly natural.
I'm willing to take my chances on self responsibility. If I OD or become an addict I'll have to deal.
The trouble with regulation is someone else decides what is good or bad, too much, etc.
I get it: you don't care about social outcomes. It's all about personal responsibility. That's a common sentiment. Personally, I care about the consequences of policies. What I'm trying to figure out is how to create the optimal balance of personal freedom and a healthy society. It may very well be that a free-for-all is the best system. I don't know. But I would advise a precautionary principle about how we get there.
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery



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Re: All drugs should be legalised... debate. [Re: Silversoul]
#14535991 - 05/30/11 01:19 PM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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True I'm not too worried about social outcomes. Of course wanting individuals to be personally responsible is like wanting life to be fair and just as likely 
I think the human experiment is a wash so I'm just out to have some fun.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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mushiepussy

Registered: 02/06/11
Posts: 1,198
Loc:
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Re: All drugs should be legalised... debate. [Re: Icelander]
#14536324 - 05/30/11 02:34 PM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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Well obviously mdma shouldn't be sold in the candy isle, but over the counter should be ok.
I will take it a step further and say that maybe for the harder drugs, a doctors approval should be required. Just a once every 5-10years check up kinda deal, to make sure people with mental disorder don't hurt themselves or others. Nobody wants a schizophrenic dude trippin on alot of fresh acid to be hangin out by the grocery store. Safety first 
This would make it hard for children or "dangerous users" to use, and easy for the average citizen to get their fix. Win win.
Lol.. I can't believe this is even a debate on this website.
All drugs should be legalized.. Fight the Power!
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MushroomTrip
Dr. Teasy Thighs



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Re: All drugs should be legalised... debate. [Re: mushiepussy]
#14536360 - 05/30/11 02:41 PM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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And who says that self-destructive people shouldn't have the right to take any drug they want? Or that someone with a serious heart condition, or suffering from epilepsy, shouldn't do as much cocaine as they please? Since when should other people care how a eparate individual from themselves decides to fuck up their lives?
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   All this time I've loved you And never known your face All this time I've missed you And searched this human race Here is true peace Here my heart knows calm Safe in your soul Bathed in your sighs
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Diploid
Cuban



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Re: All drugs should be legalised... debate. [Re: mushiepussy] 4
#14536474 - 05/30/11 03:13 PM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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to make sure people with mental disorder don't hurt themselves
And who are you, their mother?
People have a right to hurt themselves, including people with mental disorders. Anyone with a mental disorder can cut off their ear any time they want to. As long as they don't do it to anyone else, why the fuck do you care?
Leave people fucking alone as long as they don't hurt anyone else. Why is this such a hard concept?
Do you know that in Florida where I live, due to the hysteria over oxycodone pill mills that sells to CONNECTING ADULTS, patients with debilitating painful medical conditions can't get pain medicines any more? And the few who still can have to go through a huge hassle every 30 days and be treated like criminals at the drugstore. Doctors are refusing to prescribe because they're afraid of DEA scrutiny. WTF?
Meanwhile Florida is releasing violent thugs convicted of rape and murder to make room for drug users who hurt no one except maybe themselves. W--T--F?
And the recreational oxycodone users? Nothing has changed. They're still getting their pills anyway, just not at the local pill mill any more.
Lol.. I can't believe this is even a debate on this website.
Click the link in my signature for the idiotic truth. Some one out of four people on this web site are in favor of locking up people, destroying their lives and careers with felony convictions, and tearing apart families with prison sentences for those who exercise sovereignty over their own body.
That's how incredibly fucked up the human species is. Even on a drug web site, a quarter of the membership are non-thinking sheeple prohibitionists.
-------------------- Republican Values: 1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you. 2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child. 3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer. 4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
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Icelander
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Registered: 03/15/05
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Re: All drugs should be legalised... debate. [Re: mushiepussy]
#14536714 - 05/30/11 04:38 PM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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a doctors approval should be required.
Yeah cause you can totally trust doctors. Just not yourself.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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don_vedo
MerKaBa


Registered: 05/12/11
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Re: All drugs should be legalised... debate. [Re: Icelander]
#14536823 - 05/30/11 05:13 PM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
Icelander said: a doctors approval should be required.
Yeah cause you can totally trust doctors. Just not yourself. 
But i thought doctors knew everything!
On a much lighter note drugs will most likely never be legal just like taxes will always exist (as long as our current government is running shit), making drugs illegal is just another way for the government to control us while continuing to argue our freedom.
-------------------- Our deepest fear is not that we are inadequate. Our deepest fear is that we are powerful beyond measure. We ask ourselves, Who am I to be brilliant, gorgeous, talented, fabulous? Actually, who are you not to be? We were born to make manifest the glory of God that is within us all. And as we let our own light shine, we unconsciously give other people permission to do the same.
Edited by don_vedo (05/30/11 05:21 PM)
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johnm214


Registered: 05/31/07
Posts: 17,582
Loc: Americas
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Re: All drugs should be legalised... debate. [Re: Icelander]
#14536870 - 05/30/11 05:26 PM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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Icelander said: a doctors approval should be required.
Yeah cause you can totally trust doctors. Just not yourself. 
Yeah, and on what grounds is a doctor supposed to give you drugs? Doctors aren't 'life coaches' and they don't know what is and isn't good for you to do in every situation.
They prescribe drugs for discrete phamacological effects: recreation is not such an effect that has any traditional or scientific basis for such prescription and hence its ridiculous to force this on doctors and expect them to have a learned opinion on this any more than it is expected for them to be able to tell you what the safest kind of car to get is or whether you should ride a bicycle despite the dangers of getting hit by a car, crashing, et cet
It would be illegal for doctors to do this in the first place per DEA licensure, and likely per all state regulations as well.
Its simply unfair to expect doctors to have any valid input on something like this they know nothing about. You think some doctor knows a lot about how to use heroin or, even better, extasy? uh, no. They don't have anything to do with the practic of all but a few academics.
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Diploid
Cuban



Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
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Re: All drugs should be legalised... debate. [Re: johnm214]
#14536939 - 05/30/11 05:41 PM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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In fact, a doctor is prohibited by basic medical ethics to give you a script for recreational drugs as they are not medically necessary and most are harmful.
Primum non nocere (First, do no harm)
And it's not a doctor's affair anyway. While I may inform my doctor of my habits for the sake of an accurate medical history, I don't ask him for permission to have a beer or smoke a cigarette. Nor should I have to.
-------------------- Republican Values: 1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you. 2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child. 3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer. 4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
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Poid
Shroomery's #1 Spellir




Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 40,372
Loc: SF Bay Area
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Re: All drugs should be legalised... debate. [Re: Simms]
#14537121 - 05/30/11 06:22 PM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
Simms said:
Quote:
Poid said: Bullshit, I don't believe you one fucking bit. I'll bet you $1 million that you would shit your pants if things suddenly became more anarchistic, and governments started toppling over.
Then don't believe it, ones beliefs are their own personal thing.
Kind of like how you believe you would rather suffer in hell than live in your current situation? 
Quote:
Simms said:
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Poid said: Why would you not choose the lesser of two evils? What kind of point are you trying to make, and to whom? 
I already told you what point I was trying to make.
No you didn't..what are you trying to prove by telling me that you prefer hell to your current situation (which you referred to as prison), and to whom? Are you trying to prove to me that you're brave, or are you trying to convince yourself of that?
Quote:
Simms said:
Quote:
Poid said:
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Simms said: This state, where we are now, is denial of our natural state.
Define "natural state", then explain to me how any state can be unnatural.
We are talking about different things here. You seem to imply human nature in general, but I am talking about an individual, who, according to your understanding which you expressed, is going to do terrible terrible things if laws are taken away. Therefore, since there is free will of how one can be, and no-one in control of what one can do, it is a natural state.
How is that in any way a natural state? People have been controlled by other people since the dawn of man..you're basically saying that the only people who live in so-called "natural states" are feral humans. 
Quote:
Simms said: You also claimed that craziness is our current natural state, which we need to supress, which speaks against your first point.
May you explain how that speaks against my first point?
Quote:
Simms said: However, do you think supressing ones mind, wants and morals is progression?
No, but society seems to have been steadily progressing towards a state where there is a minimal amount of suppression..look at the stark difference between 50's society and 60's society for an example of this.
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Simms said: I think, we have already regressed. This progression, which you are talking about, only exists in the form of inventions, 100 year old combustion engines, electricity, etc. But human mind has stayed relatively the same. Same wars, as always, after 10 000 years, caused by whom? People?
Duh, it's not like we can progress in every conceivable way..humans are naturally territorial and somewhat xenophobic, I don't think we're going to progress beyond the need for war any time soon, if ever at all.
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Simms said:
Quote:
Poid said:
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Simms said: 99% of worlds problems is caused by 0,001% of people on this planet -- the world leaders.
Do you have any evidence for this statement, or did you just pull it out of your ass or something? 
Evidence is pretty abundant, wars, dominant countries importing all the goods from poor areas, causing economical unbalance. I am not going to point it out to you, I am here not to convince you to anything.
Then..GTFO of this debate forum with your crap?  Man, it always surprises me when people come in here not wanting to debate..seriously, how ******** can a person be? 
Quote:
Simms said:
Quote:
Poid said:
Quote:
Simms said: But only world leaders are able to control enough amount of people to destroy a nation, make a war.
So you prefer anarchy, a state in which individuals are constantly at war with their own neighbors, to what we have today, a state where the common citizen never has to experience war in his/her life? My, you're a compassionate one. 
You are making assumptions here.
Where am I making assumptions? You said yourself you prefer hell (an anarchy) to prison (your current situation).
Quote:
Simms said: Assumptions come from one persons current mindset, which speaks that human mind has not progressed much over the 10 000 years, so you think it needs to be put in prison. The only logical next step to this is death -- is that what you want?
This doesn't make any sense to me..would you mind rephrasing it?
Quote:
Simms said: Most of anarchists come from low-wealth worker class families, me included. What this means, is that most of them are already half-adapted to survival state. For us, if we had to choose a shitty life between closed walls and a shitty life with an actual opportunity to grow as I want, we most definately choose the latter.

There is not a single anarchist in the Western world who is adapted to living in a total anarchy..sure, some may be able to survive in the wild, but that's only half the battle in an anarchy. You would have to defend yourself against hordes of people while at the same time be able to sustain yourself via outdoorsman survival skills. Nobody, except for super-rich people who have lots of weapons and other resources, would cope very well in a total anarchy.
Quote:
Simms said: What I believe in, is total anarchism.
Yeah, I know, and it's fucking retarded because you don't seem to be able to grasp that you probably wouldn't survive a second in such an environment, and if you did, it would a second spent in agony and suffering.
-------------------- Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. -- Bob Dylan  fireworks_god said:It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.
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Simms
Fuckwit


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Re: All drugs should be legalised... debate. [Re: Poid] 1
#14538456 - 05/30/11 10:58 PM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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This isn't even debate. Because the most basic assumption you are making, is a simple BELIEF that anarchy = chaos.
"Simms said: Assumptions come from one persons current mindset, which speaks that human mind has not progressed much over the 10 000 years, so you think it needs to be put in prison. The only logical next step to this is death -- is that what you want?"
Ok, I rephrase it because you seem to be too blindfolded by your assumptions and accusations: Assumptions, that anarchy = chaos, come from current mindset, of fear, as described in previous statements. This aspect basically tells us, that human mind has not progressed much at all, if such fear of total freedom has existed over 10 000 years. This raises the question: Are we actually progressing towards more imprisonment? You say that humans are bad, and they will do bad things in freedom, therefore they need to be in prison. The next logical progression for imprisonment is death punishment. Should humans abort their existence? Is this your vision of progression?
I simply do not believe that total anarchy = total chaos. The second big assumption you made, was that I believe same things you do, or things you believe I believe.
This is a debate oriented philosophy forum. Philosophical debate is oriented towards ideas, not wordings. And looking many of your posts, I am beginning to think that you don't even try to understand the idea, its just a debate competition for you... Forgive me if I am wrong.
--------------------
Edited by Simms (05/30/11 11:11 PM)
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mushiepussy

Registered: 02/06/11
Posts: 1,198
Loc:
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Re: All drugs should be legalised... debate. [Re: Simms]
#14538596 - 05/30/11 11:33 PM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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Ok, maybe not a doctors approval, but instead just don't sell to people with a history of violence so they don't hurt themselves or others. I just don't think we should sell drugs to psychos in the supermarket
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Jordan Black


Registered: 05/09/11
Posts: 59
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Re: All drugs should be legalised... debate. [Re: johnm214]
#14538681 - 05/30/11 11:57 PM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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First off, great debate all around and interesting thread. Just one thing I had to ask.
"Marijuana causes far more harm than heroin, and far more addictions"
um... ... really?
Care to explain? Some kind of article or statistic that supports this (seemingly) absurd claim?
I may be missing something here, if so please fill me in *takes another vaporizer rip*
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery



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Re: All drugs should be legalised... debate. [Re: Simms]
#14539434 - 05/31/11 06:15 AM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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Should humans abort their existence? Is this your vision of progression?
Frankly...yes.
I simply do not believe that total anarchy = total chaos.
So lets say I'm bigger stronger and very hungry but there is a very limited amount of food. You have a nice juicy steak and I'm going to take it every time even though you will starve. Pure anarchy reigns. What is going to stop me from beating the shit out of you if you resist?
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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4896744
Small Town Girl


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Re: All drugs should be legalised... debate. [Re: Icelander]
#14540041 - 05/31/11 10:19 AM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
Icelander said: Should humans abort their existence? Is this your vision of progression?
Frankly...yes.
I simply do not believe that total anarchy = total chaos.
So lets say I'm bigger stronger and very hungry but there is a very limited amount of food. You have a nice juicy steak and I'm going to take it every time even though you will starve. Pure anarchy reigns. What is going to stop me from beating the shit out of you if you resist?
He prefers nice anarchism which more closely resembles a hippie commune.
-------------------- Live your Life!
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery



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Re: All drugs should be legalised... debate. [Re: 4896744]
#14540083 - 05/31/11 10:34 AM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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Most hippie communes failed.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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mushiepussy

Registered: 02/06/11
Posts: 1,198
Loc:
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Re: All drugs should be legalised... debate. [Re: Icelander]
#14540210 - 05/31/11 11:10 AM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
Icelander said: Should humans abort their existence? Is this your vision of progression?
Frankly...yes.
Sounds like you're on the right track for a xanax prescription..
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery



Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
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Re: All drugs should be legalised... debate. [Re: mushiepussy]
#14540223 - 05/31/11 11:12 AM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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Can I get it without a doctors prescription?
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Primal Glitch
literally just vibing



Registered: 05/06/07
Posts: 4,854
Loc: 🌎
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Re: All drugs should be legalised... debate. [Re: Mufungo]
#14540289 - 05/31/11 11:31 AM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
Simms said: Assumptions, that anarchy = chaos, come from current mindset, of fear, as described in previous statements. This aspect basically tells us, that human mind has not progressed much at all, if such fear of total freedom has existed over 10 000 years. This raises the question: Are we actually progressing towards more imprisonment?
legalization would be a logical choice IMO
but if it happened overnight we would get a backlash of mass hysteria that could take us back to the 80's
--------------------
make the changa you wish to see in the world gnome sayin'?
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mushiepussy

Registered: 02/06/11
Posts: 1,198
Loc:
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Re: All drugs should be legalised... debate. [Re: Icelander]
#14540322 - 05/31/11 11:43 AM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
Icelander said: Can I get it without a doctors prescription?
Hahaha Where there's a will, there's way.
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don_vedo
MerKaBa


Registered: 05/12/11
Posts: 1,383
Loc: 5th dimension
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Re: All drugs should be legalised... debate. [Re: Icelander]
#14540598 - 05/31/11 01:16 PM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
Icelander said: Can I get it without a doctors prescription?
-------------------- Our deepest fear is not that we are inadequate. Our deepest fear is that we are powerful beyond measure. We ask ourselves, Who am I to be brilliant, gorgeous, talented, fabulous? Actually, who are you not to be? We were born to make manifest the glory of God that is within us all. And as we let our own light shine, we unconsciously give other people permission to do the same.
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4896744
Small Town Girl


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Re: All drugs should be legalised... debate. [Re: Icelander]
#14541014 - 05/31/11 02:49 PM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
Icelander said: Can I get it without a doctors prescription?
You can get literally anything online, legal or not.
You should try to get your doctor to prescribe you benzos for death anxiety.
-------------------- Live your Life!
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery



Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
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Re: All drugs should be legalised... debate. [Re: 4896744]
#14541150 - 05/31/11 03:12 PM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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Thank you for caring.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery



Registered: 03/15/05
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Re: All drugs should be legalised... debate. [Re: 4896744]
#14541163 - 05/31/11 03:14 PM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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You can get literally anything online, legal or not.
I want a million in counterfeit $20s
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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OrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group



Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 45,414
Loc: Under the C
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Re: All drugs should be legalised... debate. [Re: Icelander]
#14541701 - 05/31/11 05:04 PM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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Ok, but will cost you $800,000.
--------------------
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery



Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
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I'll give you 6.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Sophistic Radiance
Free sVs!


Registered: 07/11/06
Posts: 43,135
Loc: Center of the Universe
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Re: All drugs should be legalised... debate. [Re: Mufungo]
#14543028 - 05/31/11 10:03 PM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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All drugs should be legalized. I always hear that nagging argument "DUDE JUST IMAGINE IF JUST ANYBODY COULD SMOKE PCP," as if they can't already. Making PCP available at the pharmacy will not significantly increase the number of people who do PCP. For those people who do PCP, a clean and reliable source of the drug has nothing but advantages for all members of society: regulated labeling can inform them of the dangers of PCP, and dosage is consistent and known. This will reduce overdoses and other physical and psychological complications among those people who do PCP.
There is no good argument against drug legalization that does not blatantly disregard human nature and reality itself.
-------------------- Enlil said: You really are the worst kind of person.
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4896744
Small Town Girl


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Re: All drugs should be legalised... debate. [Re: Icelander]
#14543383 - 05/31/11 11:19 PM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
Icelander said: You can get literally anything online, legal or not.
I want a million in counterfeit $20s
I was only talking about droogz!
-------------------- Live your Life!
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery



Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
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Re: All drugs should be legalised... debate. [Re: 4896744]
#14544508 - 06/01/11 06:19 AM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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Then you fucked up.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery



Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
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Quote:
Tchan909 said: All drugs should be legalized. I always hear that nagging argument "DUDE JUST IMAGINE IF JUST ANYBODY COULD SMOKE PCP," as if they can't already. Making PCP available at the pharmacy will not significantly increase the number of people who do PCP. For those people who do PCP, a clean and reliable source of the drug has nothing but advantages for all members of society: regulated labeling can inform them of the dangers of PCP, and dosage is consistent and known. This will reduce overdoses and other physical and psychological complications among those people who do PCP.
There is no good argument against drug legalization that does not blatantly disregard human nature and reality itself.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Simms
Fuckwit


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Re: All drugs should be legalised... debate. [Re: Icelander]
#14544917 - 06/01/11 09:07 AM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
Icelander said: Should humans abort their existence? Is this your vision of progression?
Frankly...yes.
I simply do not believe that total anarchy = total chaos.
So lets say I'm bigger stronger and very hungry but there is a very limited amount of food. You have a nice juicy steak and I'm going to take it every time even though you will starve. Pure anarchy reigns. What is going to stop me from beating the shit out of you if you resist?
Then I'll either die of starvation or be clever and not eat my steak in front of a person who is going to take it no-matter what, other option would be to share my steak, if such option is possible.
--------------------
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery



Registered: 03/15/05
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Re: All drugs should be legalised... debate. [Re: Simms]
#14544970 - 06/01/11 09:26 AM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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nice plan I expect a full report.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Ferdinando


Registered: 11/15/09
Posts: 3,664
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Re: All drugs should be legalised... debate. [Re: Icelander]
#14545027 - 06/01/11 09:51 AM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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Prohibition of drugs and suicide comes from an attitude of right and obligation to protect the people and fear of the unknown
-------------------- with our love with our love we could save the world
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Ferdinando


Registered: 11/15/09
Posts: 3,664
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Re: All drugs should be legalised... debate. *DELETED* [Re: Ferdinando]
#14545039 - 06/01/11 09:56 AM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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also you don't own anything, not even yourself freedom has no inherent value
-------------------- with our love with our love we could save the world
Edited by Ferdinando (06/01/11 10:01 AM)
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery



Registered: 03/15/05
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Re: All drugs should be legalised... debate. [Re: Ferdinando]
#14545048 - 06/01/11 09:58 AM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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also you don't own anything, not even yourself
Neither does culture or society.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Ferdinando


Registered: 11/15/09
Posts: 3,664
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Re: All drugs should be legalised... debate. [Re: Icelander]
#14545063 - 06/01/11 10:02 AM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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I wasn't only talking to you
-------------------- with our love with our love we could save the world
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery



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Re: All drugs should be legalised... debate. [Re: Ferdinando]
#14545073 - 06/01/11 10:05 AM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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so?
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Simms
Fuckwit


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Re: All drugs should be legalised... debate. [Re: Icelander]
#14545159 - 06/01/11 10:44 AM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
Icelander said: nice plan I expect a full report.
Here is what most people don't understand:
Anarchy does not come overnight. Chaos can come overnight, anarchy can't.
If we take away current prison walls, people are going to run amock, kill each other and themselves, ruin the enviornment, etc. Like life-kept monkeys let out from the cage. Then there are also people who sort-of understand the freedom and may even value it, but are so stuck in their comfort zones that they don't know how to survive in that state for long, and die miserably, because there is no-one left to feed them.
Anarchy takes time. Destroying the prison walls bit-by-bit, giving only glimpses of freedom until people get used to it.
--------------------
Edited by Simms (06/01/11 10:44 AM)
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MushroomTrip
Dr. Teasy Thighs



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Re: All drugs should be legalised... debate. [Re: Ferdinando] 1
#14545186 - 06/01/11 10:53 AM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
Ferdinando said: I wasn't only talking to you
Dumbest post of the day.
--------------------
   All this time I've loved you And never known your face All this time I've missed you And searched this human race Here is true peace Here my heart knows calm Safe in your soul Bathed in your sighs
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery



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Re: All drugs should be legalised... debate. [Re: Simms]
#14545242 - 06/01/11 11:10 AM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
Simms said:
Quote:
Icelander said: nice plan I expect a full report.
Here is what most people don't understand:
Anarchy does not come overnight. Chaos can come overnight, anarchy can't.
If we take away current prison walls, people are going to run amock, kill each other and themselves, ruin the enviornment, etc. Like life-kept monkeys let out from the cage. Then there are also people who sort-of understand the freedom and may even value it, but are so stuck in their comfort zones that they don't know how to survive in that state for long, and die miserably, because there is no-one left to feed them.
Anarchy takes time. Destroying the prison walls bit-by-bit, giving only glimpses of freedom until people get used to it.
I'm curious how you know all this? I mean not being other people and all.
I grew up in the 60s and 70s and remember all the communes professing anarchy. Where oh where have they all gone to?
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Ferdinando


Registered: 11/15/09
Posts: 3,664
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Re: All drugs should be legalised... debate. [Re: Icelander]
#14545353 - 06/01/11 11:39 AM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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I was just sad that no one else replied before I checked back I am kitty
the point is I was talking to all of culture and society that was going to read what I wrote nothing owns anything reeeaally give me what you got ahur
-------------------- with our love with our love we could save the world
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Diploid
Cuban



Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
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Re: All drugs should be legalised... debate. [Re: Icelander]
#14545367 - 06/01/11 11:43 AM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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They went away when human nature bit the members on the ass.
They made many stoopid assumptions like that if there are no rules that everyone must pitch in and clean up after themselves, everyone would just naturally do it.
The reality was that everyone went to take a nap instead of cleaning up after the party was over and left the work to someone else.
Destroying the prison walls bit-by-bit, giving only glimpses of freedom until people get used to it.
Yeah how about you put your money where your mouth is? Set a stack of money out on the sidewalk with a sign telling people to feel free to borrow some but make sure to pay it back by the end of the week.
Let me know how that turns out.
-------------------- Republican Values: 1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you. 2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child. 3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer. 4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
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Icelander
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Re: All drugs should be legalised... debate. [Re: Diploid]
#14545380 - 06/01/11 11:46 AM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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Not to mention the free love that bit so many on the emotional ass. (me included)
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Sophistic Radiance
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Re: All drugs should be legalised... debate. [Re: Ferdinando] 1
#14545387 - 06/01/11 11:48 AM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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I find anarchy theory really interesting... there is always the knee-jerk impulse to say "obviously it won't work," because obviously, it won't - not yet. Should that prohibit us from long-term planning? It may take a very long time, even generations, but the legalistic nation-state paradigm is clearly not sustainable and we have no time to waste planning for its inevitable collapse.
-------------------- Enlil said: You really are the worst kind of person.
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Diploid
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there is always the knee-jerk impulse to say "obviously it won't work,"
It's not a knee-jerk reaction to state that something won't work when that statement is based on some 200,000 years of human history.
Humans are a successful species PRECISELY BECAUSE we exploit every crack in our systems of anti-anarchy to rip each other (and other species) off. It's in our nature. If it weren't, some other species with that in its nature would have driven us extinct by now.
It may take a very long time, even generations
I don't believe there is any evolutionary pressure for that change and so I don't believe humans can ever achieve that. We are doomed to exist in a ruthless world of our own creation even though our intelligence could have created a paradise on Earth by now.
If a benevolent species in an anarchical social system ever comes to rule the Earth, it will not be human. Bonobos maybe have a shot, but not us.
-------------------- Republican Values: 1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you. 2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child. 3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer. 4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
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Sophistic Radiance
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Re: All drugs should be legalised... debate. [Re: Diploid]
#14545473 - 06/01/11 12:15 PM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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I think that's a very cynical, not to mention selective appraisal.
I'd also like to know where your "history" prior to 10,000 years ago comes from. If you are using examples of prehistoric modern human remains who appeared to have been killed by other modern humans, then you appear to be conflating the idea of "anarchy" with that of "utopia."
Even if you take legalistic culture to be absolutely smothering, you will notice that pockets of resistance and anarchy have always lived behind its curtains. I see it as a dying beast. Its current form relies upon industrial technology that already is far more expensive than it used to be and eventually will be scarcer. I foresee drastic decentralization of authority in the generations to come, and it would be best to come to the power-grab greased up and ready to go. Perhaps most importantly this should involve having a strong theoretical framework to work from.
And THAT'S why I find anarchy theory interesting
-------------------- Enlil said: You really are the worst kind of person.
Edited by Tchan909 (06/01/11 12:33 PM)
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Icelander
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Re: All drugs should be legalised... debate. [Re: Diploid]
#14545481 - 06/01/11 12:19 PM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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From what I know about bonobos they don't have a shot either. They still fight kick and scream just not as much. They found that really cool way of dealing with a lot of their aggression. Unfortunately we're way too smart for that.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Diploid
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I'd also like to know where your "history" prior to 10,000 years ago comes from. If you are using examples of prehistoric modern human remains who appeared to have been killed by other modern humans, then you appear to be conflating the idea of "anarchy" with that of "utopia."
How so? neo-modern humans didn't live in utopian societies. They lived in anarchical ones. The big ones beat the shit out of the little ones and stole their lunch. Just like CURRENTLY HAPPENS in modern anarchical societies. Witness Somalia.
I foresee drastic decentralization of authority in the generations to come
I see just the opposite. Governments are more and more using technology to centralize control and consolidate power, not the other way around.
-------------------- Republican Values: 1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you. 2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child. 3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer. 4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
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Sophistic Radiance
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Re: All drugs should be legalised... debate. [Re: Diploid]
#14545564 - 06/01/11 12:39 PM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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I just don't think they can pull it off. I think an attempt to impose a full-blown security state on the continental US would result in civil war. I could be wrong though.
Obviously Somalia is a good example for what to avoid in good anarchist theory.
-------------------- Enlil said: You really are the worst kind of person.
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Icelander
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Re: All drugs should be legalised... debate. [Re: Diploid]
#14545570 - 06/01/11 12:40 PM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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I foresee drastic decentralization of authority in the generations to come
More like what he would like to see. Well so would I but I've seen no evidence of a move in that direction either. Quite the opposite.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Icelander
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Quote:
Tchan909 said: I just don't think they can pull it off. I think an attempt to impose a full-blown security state on the continental US would result in civil war. I could be wrong though.
Obviously Somalia is a good example for what to avoid in good anarchist theory.
What American's, they're mostly gone imo. In place we have uneducated, obese, ill, sheepies.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Diploid
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I just don't think they can pull it off. I think an attempt to impose a full-blown security state on the continental US would result in civil war.
Not if it's done gradually. We're already on the slippery slope and have been for a few years. Ever heard of the Patriot Act? How about warrantless wiretaps? No knock search warrants? NSA's secret universal wiretap room in ATT's network center?
And probably the most scary of them all, suspension of Habeas corpus.
Hell, just recently we got this gem from the Supreme Court, the very people whose job it is to protect us from it. And the few Americans who bother to keep themselves informed enough to even hear about it just yawned:
Police Allowed To Kick Down Your Door and Search WITHOUT a Warrant
Uneducated, obese, ill, sheepies indeed. We're well on our way to a security state. And that in the U.S., least likely country in the world for it to happen. Meanwhile, China, Saudi Arabia, Iran, North Korea, Cuba and plenty others are already there.
-------------------- Republican Values: 1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you. 2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child. 3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer. 4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
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NetDiver
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Re: All drugs should be legalised... debate. [Re: Diploid]
#14545696 - 06/01/11 01:17 PM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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Legalizing all drugs seems like a no-brainer to me, as Icelander said. Making drugs illegal doesn't make them go away.
Why should the government have any say at all over what I choose to put in my own damn body?
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don_vedo
MerKaBa


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Re: All drugs should be legalised... debate. [Re: Diploid]
#14545716 - 06/01/11 01:22 PM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
Diploid said: Yeah how about you put your money where your mouth is? Set a stack of money out on the sidewalk with a sign telling people to feel free to borrow some but make sure to pay it back by the end of the week.
Let me know how that turns out.
Damn, so your saying that Homeless man who told me he wanted to borrow a grand for a week isn't going to pay me back! Aw shucks! 
Lah'Kesh
-------------------- Our deepest fear is not that we are inadequate. Our deepest fear is that we are powerful beyond measure. We ask ourselves, Who am I to be brilliant, gorgeous, talented, fabulous? Actually, who are you not to be? We were born to make manifest the glory of God that is within us all. And as we let our own light shine, we unconsciously give other people permission to do the same.
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4896744
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Re: All drugs should be legalised... debate. [Re: Icelander]
#14545858 - 06/01/11 01:52 PM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
Icelander said:
Quote:
Icelander said:
Quote:
Tchan909 said: I just don't think they can pull it off. I think an attempt to impose a full-blown security state on the continental US would result in civil war. I could be wrong though.
Obviously Somalia is a good example for what to avoid in good anarchist theory.
What American's, they're mostly gone imo. In place we have uneducated, obese, ill, sheepies.
I think there is definitely a possibility for at least some movement in the right direction with my generation due to the universal access to the internet. It makes it harder to indoctrinate people with a single point of view.
-------------------- Live your Life!
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery



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Re: All drugs should be legalised... debate. [Re: Diploid]
#14545931 - 06/01/11 02:09 PM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
Diploid said: I just don't think they can pull it off. I think an attempt to impose a full-blown security state on the continental US would result in civil war.
Not if it's done gradually. We're already on the slippery slope and have been for a few years. Ever heard of the Patriot Act? How about warrantless wiretaps? No knock search warrants? NSA's secret universal wiretap room in ATT's network center?
And probably the most scary of them all, suspension of Habeas corpus.
Hell, just recently we got this gem from the Supreme Court, the very people whose job it is to protect us from it. And the few Americans who bother to keep themselves informed enough to even hear about it just yawned:
Police Allowed To Kick Down Your Door and Search WITHOUT a Warrant
Uneducated, obese, ill, sheepies indeed. We're well on our way to a security state. And that in the U.S., least likely country in the world for it to happen. Meanwhile, China, Saudi Arabia, Iran, North Korea, Cuba and plenty others are already there.
See only some of us have been alive long enough to see real changes in the direction of loss of freedom in our own lifetime. Most people can't relate to history outside of their own life.
IMO we've already lost our freedom but we're asleep and hardly need it. When we are finally awakened and see what we don't have it will be too late to get any back most likely.
I'm old so I don't really give a rats ass anymore.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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i like cow poo
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Re: All drugs should be legalised... debate. [Re: Icelander]
#14546089 - 06/01/11 02:42 PM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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Maybe you're talking about America in general. Hell if the government goes ape shit I'll move to Portugal. I think alot of people have a depressed view of the world in general, and they see there views as facts. Alot of people see the bad parts (including me). But hell with the internet you can get free movies, music, and best of all PORN! For anyone who hates America, just move to Brazil where you can easily pay off the police
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Icelander
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Re: All drugs should be legalised... debate. [Re: i like cow poo]
#14546168 - 06/01/11 02:55 PM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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Most of the world is in the same straights, maybe a tiny bit better or a lot worse. I stick it out in America. I want to be around for the big revolutionaries ball. Could be any time now.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Diploid
Cuban



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Re: All drugs should be legalised... debate. [Re: i like cow poo]
#14546187 - 06/01/11 02:57 PM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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You do know that Portugal is not in Brazil, right?
-------------------- Republican Values: 1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you. 2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child. 3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer. 4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
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Icelander
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Re: All drugs should be legalised... debate. [Re: Diploid]
#14546197 - 06/01/11 02:59 PM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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I'd be in Uruguay if I was heading south.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Diploid
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Re: All drugs should be legalised... debate. [Re: Icelander]
#14546249 - 06/01/11 03:09 PM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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I might end up in Mexico. My parents built a huge vacation home on the beach north of Merida for about $50,000. The same place here would cost a million. Their nearest neighbor down the beach is a half-mile away. They eat like kings for next to nothing, have two live-in servants who are well paid at $100 / month, and are about an hour from a modern hospital in case something goes wrong.
Every year they spend more and more time down there and less and less here. Eventually they plan on selling the Miami house and staying down there permanently. They've invited me along and the house is plenty big enough.
I may take them up on it when the local phone company puts in DSL capability. That's the only down-side. They barely have voice service currently.
-------------------- Republican Values: 1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you. 2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child. 3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer. 4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
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Cognitive_Shift
CS actual




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Re: All drugs should be legalised... debate. [Re: Diploid]
#14546269 - 06/01/11 03:12 PM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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Drugs should be legalized because drugs are a health problem not a criminal problem.
-------------------- L'enfer est plein de bonnes volontés et désirs
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Icelander
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Re: All drugs should be legalised... debate. [Re: Diploid]
#14546295 - 06/01/11 03:18 PM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
Diploid said: I might end up in Mexico. My parents built a huge vacation home on the beach north of Merida for about $50,000. The same place here would cost a million. Their nearest neighbor down the beach is a half-mile away. They eat like kings for next to nothing, have two live-in servants who are well paid at $100 / month, and are about an hour from a modern hospital in case something goes wrong.
Every year they spend more and more time down there and less and less here. Eventually they plan on selling the Miami house and staying down there permanently. They've invited me along and the house is plenty big enough.
I may take them up on it when the local phone company puts in DSL capability. That's the only down-side. They barely have voice service currently.
This might be a good time to offer me lodging in the guest house down there. Just sayin
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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GoreyLarson
Wet behind the ears


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Re: All drugs should be legalised... debate. [Re: Icelander]
#14546406 - 06/01/11 03:38 PM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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For someone who has never tried a drug like meth to suddenly decide that it's a good idea simply for no reason other than that it's no longer illegal is nobody's mistake to make but that person. That is a stupid decision and it has stupid consequences. For one thing treatment centers, therapy, and drug awareness programs should probably be beefed up to be able to handle these complicated and confusing issues intelligently. I think that should happen before opening the floodgates for everyone who wants to "do something illegal" and not get in trouble. Namely teenagers. I don't think legalizing every substance across the board would trigger a massive increase in drug intake, in fact it may decrease the desperate and negligent use of computer duster and bath salts and other such substances by teenagers. I'm sure if it were to happen, some similarly rigid system would come in to take the place of criminalization, in order to reduce the risks posed by a lack of good judgment.
Edited by GoreyLarson (06/01/11 06:54 PM)
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Sophistic Radiance
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Re: All drugs should be legalised... debate. [Re: GoreyLarson]
#14546646 - 06/01/11 04:24 PM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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My escape route is the Netherlands, South Africa, or Portugal - family ties ensure a wide range of options. 
I also have family in the UK but it seems like if anything they're a good deal farther up the security-state ladder.
-------------------- Enlil said: You really are the worst kind of person.
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GoreyLarson
Wet behind the ears


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I don't see any reason why some substances should be illegal for scientific study. What good does that do for anyone involved? It just insures that we won't come to terms with the true potential of any of those substances any time soon.
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OrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group



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Re: All drugs should be legalised... debate. [Re: Diploid]
#14547000 - 06/01/11 05:41 PM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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When your parents pass on, you could start a shroomery commune down there. I will tend the garden and the initiation ceremonies.
--------------------
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don_vedo
MerKaBa


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You'll find me in the mountains of Peru
-------------------- Our deepest fear is not that we are inadequate. Our deepest fear is that we are powerful beyond measure. We ask ourselves, Who am I to be brilliant, gorgeous, talented, fabulous? Actually, who are you not to be? We were born to make manifest the glory of God that is within us all. And as we let our own light shine, we unconsciously give other people permission to do the same.
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OrgoneConclusion
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Re: All drugs should be legalised... debate. [Re: don_vedo]
#14547304 - 06/01/11 06:42 PM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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In Peru they spike the baby's milk bottle with cactus juice.
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don_vedo
MerKaBa


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^^^
-------------------- Our deepest fear is not that we are inadequate. Our deepest fear is that we are powerful beyond measure. We ask ourselves, Who am I to be brilliant, gorgeous, talented, fabulous? Actually, who are you not to be? We were born to make manifest the glory of God that is within us all. And as we let our own light shine, we unconsciously give other people permission to do the same.
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4896744
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Quote:
OrgoneConclusion said: When your parents pass on, you could start a shroomery commune down there. I will tend the garden and the initiation ceremonies.
I can... umm... do a lot of drugs and freeload?
-------------------- Live your Life!
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TheCreampie



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Re: All drugs should be legalised... debate. [Re: Diploid]
#14547838 - 06/01/11 08:36 PM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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I'd love to see pics of that, 50k for a million dollar home is a steal.
--------------------
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TigerShark
Meowasaurus



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Re: All drugs should be legalised... debate. [Re: TheCreampie]
#14548569 - 06/01/11 11:09 PM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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As long as people aren't running around in the streets stabbing and shooting random bypassers, I don't see what the big deal is. People should be able to live their lives however they please. The government could probably even make a decent amount of revenue off of legal drug sales.
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Cognitive_Shift
CS actual




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Re: All drugs should be legalised... debate. [Re: TigerShark]
#14549257 - 06/02/11 03:02 AM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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Drugs is a health issue, not a criminal issue. We need to treat drug addiction as a mental health issue.
Locking people up for possessing plant matter (many drugs are plants) and prohibiting the life of an organism is what i would consider morally corrupt. Whether the drug is from a plant or made in a lab drugs both do the same thing, they alter how a person thinks and feels. I think banning something that changes how people think and feel is controlling the minds of people. If we are limiting what others can experience, think and feel... then they are going to have a limited view of the world. I think depriving someone from experiencing new thoughts, new ideas and new experiences is wrong in my eyes... No harm, no foul.
Also it's no one else's business but my own when it comes to what i do to my body, what i put in it and how i run my brain.
-------------------- L'enfer est plein de bonnes volontés et désirs
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Ferdinando


Registered: 11/15/09
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Re: All drugs should be legalised... debate. [Re: Cognitive_Shift]
#14549354 - 06/02/11 04:07 AM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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you could say that and I agree all the way through, though I don't know what all of it means (moral, what is that?)
however we all have a limited view of the world and this particular view gets stored in memory through time and is what we all use as basis for decision-making some people have a lot of power they have been chosen by the people to lead, because the people really think that they are the best candidates to choose from of course they are all (almost) ignorant as to what drugs do the most important thing to know about psychs is that they extend the fading of brain signals - I really wish more people would see that
we all do what we immediately and spontaneously think is right the basis that is our background is beyond us
-------------------- with our love with our love we could save the world
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Poid
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Re: All drugs should be legalised... debate. [Re: Icelander]
#14551414 - 06/02/11 03:32 PM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
Simms said: This isn't even debate. Because the most basic assumption you are making, is a simple BELIEF that anarchy = chaos.
Assumptions aren't bad if they are based on something, unlike your baseless assumption that anarchy does not = chaos. Actually, it's not baseless, because it's based on the logical fallacy called "wishful thinking".
Quote:
Simms said: "Simms said: Assumptions come from one persons current mindset, which speaks that human mind has not progressed much over the 10 000 years, so you think it needs to be put in prison. The only logical next step to this is death -- is that what you want?"
Ok, I rephrase it because you seem to be too blindfolded by your assumptions and accusations: Assumptions, that anarchy = chaos, come from current mindset, of fear, as described in previous statements. This aspect basically tells us, that human mind has not progressed much at all, if such fear of total freedom has existed over 10 000 years. This raises the question: Are we actually progressing towards more imprisonment? You say that humans are bad, and they will do bad things in freedom, therefore they need to be in prison. The next logical progression for imprisonment is death punishment. Should humans abort their existence? Is this your vision of progression?
I think that society is progressing towards giving its citizens as much freedoms as possible while having as much security as necessary.
Quote:
Simms said: I simply do not believe that total anarchy = total chaos.
I know that, you don't believe that simply because you don't want to. I seriously can't believe there is a single person on this planet who does not foresee chaos resulting from total anarchy..this deserves a tard graemlin:

Quote:
Simms said: The second big assumption you made, was that I believe same things you do, or things you believe I believe.
Where did I make this assumption?
Quote:
Simms said: This is a debate oriented philosophy forum. Philosophical debate is oriented towards ideas, not wordings.
What the hell is the difference?
Quote:
Simms said: And looking many of your posts, I am beginning to think that you don't even try to understand the idea, its just a debate competition for you... Forgive me if I am wrong.
If it's a debate competition for me, then how am I not trying to understand the idea? How can I debate an idea without trying to understand it? That doesn't make any sense.
You're just getting pissy because I disagree with you..happens a lot in this forum, just know that you are that type of guy. 
Quote:
Icelander said: Should humans abort their existence? Is this your vision of progression?
Frankly...yes.
I simply do not believe that total anarchy = total chaos.
So lets say I'm bigger stronger and very hungry but there is a very limited amount of food. You have a nice juicy steak and I'm going to take it every time even though you will starve. Pure anarchy reigns. What is going to stop me from beating the shit out of you if you resist?
And what's going to stop all the rich, powerful, and resourceful people from enslaving the poor, and powerless?
-------------------- Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. -- Bob Dylan  fireworks_god said:It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.
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Satyapriya



Registered: 01/18/10
Posts: 1,147
Loc: Earth
Last seen: 9 years, 3 months
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Re: All drugs should be legalised... debate. [Re: Poid]
#14553047 - 06/02/11 10:05 PM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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-------------------- www.collectivelyconscious.net - Hive mind for the awakened. ॐ Collectively Conscious ॐ is a community-powered, community-verified, alternative news/multimedia aggregation service for global citizens.
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Cups
technically "here"


Registered: 12/24/09
Posts: 1,925
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Re: All drugs should be legalised... debate. [Re: Satyapriya]
#14553067 - 06/02/11 10:09 PM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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^^^Yeah made my brother all excited.
The US drug czar came back saying the report is flawed...making marijuana more available would make the crime go up.
I just at that. MORE available? As opposed to what?
-------------------- What's up everybody?!
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