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Simms
Fuckwit


Registered: 11/17/08
Posts: 1,109
Loc: Somewhere in Europe
Last seen: 2 years, 6 months
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Re: All drugs should be legalised... debate. [Re: Poid]
#14534151 - 05/30/11 01:47 AM (12 years, 8 months ago) |
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Poid said:
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Simms said: I think drugs should not be legalized because there shouldn't be anyone that has such power in the first place. Somehow, we are all prisoners, someone else decides our freedom. This is not life, this is prison.
So you would prefer living in a free-for-all, anarchistic, survival-of-the-fittest environment to living in a relatively safe environment regulated by laws? The latter may be prison, but the former would be hell..I seriously doubt many humans would live comfortable lives if they lived in the former environment.
I choose hell, Yes.
This state, where we are now, is denial of our natural state. If without this "safe enviornment" we would turn crazy, then its a state of progression which shall come to natural end eventually.
99% of worlds problems is caused by 0,001% of people on this planet -- the world leaders. Sure, people have conflicts, fights, murders, tortures etc. But only world leaders are able to control enough amount of people to destroy a nation, make a war.
I ask you, do you see yourself as a chaos emitting life-destroying entity in such anarchistic world? Is it fear that drives other people crazy, causing "unmoral" deeds, eventually turning everyone crazy because of the fear of others? Where would it lead?
Edited by Simms (05/30/11 02:01 AM)
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Poid
Shroomery's #1 Spellir




Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 40,372
Loc: SF Bay Area
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Re: All drugs should be legalised... debate. [Re: Simms]
#14534174 - 05/30/11 02:03 AM (12 years, 8 months ago) |
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johnm214 said:
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nemesis94 said: I disagree. Sure alot of drugs should be legalized but just imagine if anybody could get their hands on PCP whenever they wanted. Thats a no-no 
My drugs are better than your drugs.
I should be left alone for enjoying my coffee and prozac, but you should be jailed, you dirty swine!
How absurd.

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Simms said:
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Poid said:
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Simms said: I think drugs should not be legalized because there shouldn't be anyone that has such power in the first place. Somehow, we are all prisoners, someone else decides our freedom. This is not life, this is prison.
So you would prefer living in a free-for-all, anarchistic, survival-of-the-fittest environment to living in a relatively safe environment regulated by laws? The latter may be prison, but the former would be hell..I seriously doubt many humans would live comfortable lives if they lived in the former environment.
I choose hell, Yes.
Bullshit, I don't believe you one fucking bit. I'll bet you $1 million that you would shit your pants if things suddenly became more anarchistic, and governments started toppling over.
Why would you not choose the lesser of two evils? What kind of point are you trying to make, and to whom? 
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Simms said: This state, where we are now, is denial of our natural state.
Define "natural state", then explain to me how any state can be unnatural.
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Simms said: If without this "safe enviornment" we would turn crazy, then its a state of progression which shall come to natural end eventually.
We wouldn't "turn crazy"..our craziness exists regardless of whether or not there is law to suppress it, total anarchy would just allow our innate craziness to rise to the surface.
We have been progressing for a long time now, and the pattern of progression has leaned toward the establishment of government rather than toward the annihilation of government..if we start annihilating our governments, that would not be progression, at least not in relation to all the progress humans have made thus far, it would be regression.
Chances are if things regress that way, the human race will meet a doom from which it will never return. 
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Simms said: 99% of worlds problems is caused by 0,001% of people on this planet -- the world leaders.
Do you have any evidence for this statement, or did you just pull it out of your ass or something? 
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Simms said: But only world leaders are able to control enough amount of people to destroy a nation, make a war.
So you prefer anarchy, a state in which individuals are constantly at war with their own neighbors, to what we have today, a state where the common citizen never has to experience war in his/her life? My, you're a compassionate one.
-------------------- Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. -- Bob Dylan  fireworks_god said:It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.
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Grapefruit
Freak in the forest



Registered: 05/09/08
Posts: 5,744
Last seen: 3 years, 1 month
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Re: All drugs should be legalised... debate. [Re: Poid]
#14534364 - 05/30/11 03:44 AM (12 years, 8 months ago) |
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Define "natural state", then explain to me how any state can be unnatural.
Just to pick this one up for myself (not to reply for Simms) the natural state to me means a state free of any attachments to the ego, a state with discontinuous thinking where the ego arises only when needed. Whether it is possible I'm not entirely sure but I think maybe.
Of course no state can be unnatural in a general sense but in the relative sense of the above state being free from the stranglehold of culture it is more "natural".
"There is only the one thought, "How?" The one question that this organism is interested in is, "How to throw off the whole thraldom, the whole strangling influence of culture?" That question is the only question this organism has—not as a word, not as a thought—the whole human organism is that one question. I don't know whether I make myself clear. That is the one question, you see, which is throbbing, pulsating in every cell, in the very marrow of your bones, trying to free itself from this stranglehold. That is the one question, the one thought. That is the saviour. That question finds that it has no way of finding an answer, that it is impossible for that question to do anything, so it explodes. When it has no way to move, no space, the 'explosion' takes place. That 'explosion' is like a nuclear explosion. That breaks the continuity of thought." -UGK
"No more fighting no more fancy dress this other kingdom seems by far the best Untill it's other jaw reveals incest and a loose obidience to a vegetable law I will not go prefer a feast of freinds to the giant family." -JM
-------------------- Little left in the way of energy; or the way of love, yet happy to entertain myself playing mental games with the rest of you freaks until the rivers run backwards. "Chat your fraff Chat your fraff Just chat your fraff Chat your fraff"
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Poid
Shroomery's #1 Spellir




Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 40,372
Loc: SF Bay Area
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Re: All drugs should be legalised... debate. [Re: Grapefruit]
#14534419 - 05/30/11 04:26 AM (12 years, 8 months ago) |
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Grapefruit said:
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Define "natural state", then explain to me how any state can be unnatural.
Just to pick this one up for myself (not to reply for Simms) the natural state to me means a state free of any attachments to the ego, a state with discontinuous thinking where the ego arises only when needed. Whether it is possible I'm not entirely sure but I think maybe.
Of course no state can be unnatural in a general sense but in the relative sense of the above state being free from the stranglehold of culture it is more "natural".
Humans have been strangled by their own cultures since the dawn of man..seems to be the natural state of things for us.
-------------------- Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. -- Bob Dylan  fireworks_god said:It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.
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Grapefruit
Freak in the forest



Registered: 05/09/08
Posts: 5,744
Last seen: 3 years, 1 month
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Re: All drugs should be legalised... debate. [Re: Poid]
#14534438 - 05/30/11 04:46 AM (12 years, 8 months ago) |
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Perhaps so. In any case I think that's what is meant by the term for some, I didn't really read Simms post so I don't know if it fits for him.
-------------------- Little left in the way of energy; or the way of love, yet happy to entertain myself playing mental games with the rest of you freaks until the rivers run backwards. "Chat your fraff Chat your fraff Just chat your fraff Chat your fraff"
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery



Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
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Re: All drugs should be legalised... debate. [Re: Silversoul] 1
#14534580 - 05/30/11 06:27 AM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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Silversoul said: I'm all for decriminalizing all drugs(not going after people for possession) as Portugal has done. Legalization is another matter. Legalization involves the actual sale of drugs. It also happens to be a matter of degree, and I think there should be a sliding scale in terms of the availability of drugs. Plainly put, I don't think heroin should not be as readily available as cannabis. I do think doctors should be able to prescribe maintenance doses to addicts. Perhaps it should even be available through mail order. But I would hesitate to allow it to be sold in supermarkets. There may be an argument to be made in favor of that, and perhaps supermarkets would choose not to sell it anyway, but I'd be a bit hesitant to go forward with a full-fledged "anything goes" attitude.
I love it how people who get pissy that their favorite drug is illegal get all uptight but then want to ban other drugs that others use.
If the sale of drugs were illegal but the use legal you would be condemning the very folk who bring you your medicine to a criminal life or putting it in the hands of the authorities which we know we can all trust to have our best interest at heart.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Mufungo
Coming at ya


Registered: 04/03/07
Posts: 2,743
Loc: Knowhere
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Re: All drugs should be legalised... debate. [Re: deranger]
#14534691 - 05/30/11 07:36 AM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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deranger said: Hey Mu,
Not sure if you've seen this thread already but it's got the counter arguments -
http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/7874721
What I wonder is, if all drugs did become legal, what category of drugs would the majority be using and what would our children be like 100's of years down the road Interesting thought.
No I hadn't seen that thread, cheers. It certainly is an interesting thought to think of what society would be like 100 years after drug were legalised. Status quo would make me think things would get bad, but based on what has happened so far in countries that have decriminalised them, probably not, maybe things would be much better. Maybe part of the allure and novelty of drugs are that they are illegal, so the "drug culture" might not be around... after all there isn't an "alcohol culture" or a "nicotine culture" is there? Those are kind of blended into culture in general. Every Dutch person I've spoken to hasn't cared much about cannabis, so I wonder if that sort of attitude towards drugs would come out over time. All speculative of course, but it would be a very interesting thing to track over the decades.
Hey has anyone seen this petition? http://www.avaaz.org/en/end_the_war_on_drugs_b/?rc=fb&pv=12 Not sure if it's legit or not, does anyone know?
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Simms
Fuckwit


Registered: 11/17/08
Posts: 1,109
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Last seen: 2 years, 6 months
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Re: All drugs should be legalised... debate. [Re: Poid]
#14534906 - 05/30/11 09:12 AM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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Poid said:
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johnm214 said:
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nemesis94 said: I disagree. Sure alot of drugs should be legalized but just imagine if anybody could get their hands on PCP whenever they wanted. Thats a no-no 
My drugs are better than your drugs.
I should be left alone for enjoying my coffee and prozac, but you should be jailed, you dirty swine!
How absurd.

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Simms said:
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Poid said:
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Simms said: I think drugs should not be legalized because there shouldn't be anyone that has such power in the first place. Somehow, we are all prisoners, someone else decides our freedom. This is not life, this is prison.
So you would prefer living in a free-for-all, anarchistic, survival-of-the-fittest environment to living in a relatively safe environment regulated by laws? The latter may be prison, but the former would be hell..I seriously doubt many humans would live comfortable lives if they lived in the former environment.
I choose hell, Yes.
Bullshit, I don't believe you one fucking bit. I'll bet you $1 million that you would shit your pants if things suddenly became more anarchistic, and governments started toppling over.
Then don't believe it, ones beliefs are their own personal thing.
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Poid said: Why would you not choose the lesser of two evils? What kind of point are you trying to make, and to whom? 
I already told you what point I was trying to make.
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Poid said:
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Simms said: This state, where we are now, is denial of our natural state.
Define "natural state", then explain to me how any state can be unnatural.
We are talking about different things here. You seem to imply human nature in general, but I am talking about an individual, who, according to your understanding which you expressed, is going to do terrible terrible things if laws are taken away. Therefore, since there is free will of how one can be, and no-one in control of what one can do, it is a natural state.
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Poid said:
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Simms said: If without this "safe enviornment" we would turn crazy, then its a state of progression which shall come to natural end eventually.
We wouldn't "turn crazy"..our craziness exists regardless of whether or not there is law to suppress it, total anarchy would just allow our innate craziness to rise to the surface.
We have been progressing for a long time now, and the pattern of progression has leaned toward the establishment of government rather than toward the annihilation of government..if we start annihilating our governments, that would not be progression, at least not in relation to all the progress humans have made thus far, it would be regression.
Chances are if things regress that way, the human race will meet a doom from which it will never return. 
Why do you think regression can not be progression, semantics aside? You also claimed that craziness is our current natural state, which we need to supress, which speaks against your first point.
However, do you think supressing ones mind, wants and morals is progression? I think, we have already regressed. This progression, which you are talking about, only exists in the form of inventions, 100 year old combustion engines, electricity, etc. But human mind has stayed relatively the same. Same wars, as always, after 10 000 years, caused by whom? People?
Information is the basis of universe. And information is the basis of culture. Our current culture, current state does not stand on inventions or material things we have achieved. If one changes one bit of the mindset of one leader, worlds could change drastically. Change the mindset of people, and world will change completely.
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Poid said:
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Simms said: 99% of worlds problems is caused by 0,001% of people on this planet -- the world leaders.
Do you have any evidence for this statement, or did you just pull it out of your ass or something? 
Evidence is pretty abundant, wars, dominant countries importing all the goods from poor areas, causing economical unbalance. I am not going to point it out to you, I am here not to convince you to anything.
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Poid said:
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Simms said: But only world leaders are able to control enough amount of people to destroy a nation, make a war.
So you prefer anarchy, a state in which individuals are constantly at war with their own neighbors, to what we have today, a state where the common citizen never has to experience war in his/her life? My, you're a compassionate one. 
You are making assumptions here. Assumptions come from one persons current mindset, which speaks that human mind has not progressed much over the 10 000 years, so you think it needs to be put in prison. The only logical next step to this is death -- is that what you want? The thing is, though, those who have the power, are in the same mindset who they are controlling.
Humans are generally afraid, afraid of making up their own mind, own morals. In a world without power, the short phrase would be us losing our minds because we panic. Suddenly we'd have to make our own decisions abut what to actually do in life, what to study, what not to do, we get these moral dilemmas also. If a house burns down, there is no-one except you to come and put out the fire. No-one is expecting anything from another. But actually this lets the person grow as an individual. The panic state is ONLY prior to us being used to secure closed enviornment. You let a home mouse out of its cage and it is getting itself killed. But it is possible to train an animal to cope in wilderness.
Most of anarchists come from low-wealth worker class families, me included. What this means, is that most of them are already half-adapted to survival state. For us, if we had to choose a shitty life between closed walls and a shitty life with an actual opportunity to grow as I want, we most definately choose the latter.
There are many forms of anarchism, many of what are speaking of anarchist society. But most of it is nonsense, semantics, and whatnot. Anarchism in its form is a romantic dream, in reality, it can be different than that. What I believe in, is total anarchism.
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery



Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
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Re: All drugs should be legalised... debate. [Re: Simms] 2
#14534954 - 05/30/11 09:28 AM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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Then don't believe it, ones beliefs are their own personal thing.
Well I'm going with Poid here. Plus you shared a personal belief and made it public.
Humans are pretty violent. When the Soviet Union came apart the very first thing may of the individuals did was pick up weapons and try to wipe each other off the map.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Simms
Fuckwit


Registered: 11/17/08
Posts: 1,109
Loc: Somewhere in Europe
Last seen: 2 years, 6 months
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Re: All drugs should be legalised... debate. [Re: Icelander]
#14535242 - 05/30/11 10:46 AM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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Icelander said: Then don't believe it, ones beliefs are their own personal thing.
Well I'm going with Poid here. Plus you shared a personal belief and made it public.
Humans are pretty violent. When the Soviet Union came apart the very first thing may of the individuals did was pick up weapons and try to wipe each other off the map.
Well, the same thing existed DURING the soviet union also. What was the second thing? And third thing?
The first thing is a state of panic and a conflict between those who are in the comfort of old regime, trying to establish their comfort again, and between those who have breaken free from their comfort zones towardsing to progression.
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Edited by Simms (05/30/11 10:48 AM)
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Silversoul
Rhizome


Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 23,576
Loc: The Barricades
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Re: All drugs should be legalised... debate. [Re: Icelander]
#14535329 - 05/30/11 11:11 AM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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Icelander said:
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Silversoul said: I'm all for decriminalizing all drugs(not going after people for possession) as Portugal has done. Legalization is another matter. Legalization involves the actual sale of drugs. It also happens to be a matter of degree, and I think there should be a sliding scale in terms of the availability of drugs. Plainly put, I don't think heroin should not be as readily available as cannabis. I do think doctors should be able to prescribe maintenance doses to addicts. Perhaps it should even be available through mail order. But I would hesitate to allow it to be sold in supermarkets. There may be an argument to be made in favor of that, and perhaps supermarkets would choose not to sell it anyway, but I'd be a bit hesitant to go forward with a full-fledged "anything goes" attitude.
I love it how people who get pissy that their favorite drug is illegal get all uptight but then want to ban other drugs that others use.
If the sale of drugs were illegal but the use legal you would be condemning the very folk who bring you your medicine to a criminal life or putting it in the hands of the authorities which we know we can all trust to have our best interest at heart.

Apparently people here have trouble reading. I said there were avenues for sale of these drugs that I'd be okay with. Just not out in the open where teenagers can stand outside a 7-11 asking strangers to get it for them. If heroin were available through the same means that many people here get their ethnobotanicals, I'd be okay with that, because it means you'd actually have to know where to look. I'm even open to being convinced that selling it where children can find it will be okay, but instead of trying to make the case, I get a bunch of accusations and slurs instead. Good job. 
BTW, I love how you make the implication that cannabis "my favorite" drug. It's not. I don't even do that stuff anymore. I only do psychedelics and MDMA, and while I don't think they or any other drug should be illegal outright, I'm fine with them being more tightly regulated than cannabis.
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johnm214


Registered: 05/31/07
Posts: 17,582
Loc: Americas
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Re: All drugs should be legalised... debate. [Re: Silversoul]
#14535372 - 05/30/11 11:24 AM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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Silversoul said:
Apparently people here have trouble reading. I said there were avenues for sale of these drugs that I'd be okay with.
No you didn't, you said that 'perhaps' it should be available via mail order, but should be banned in retail. Now apparently your not only fine with it being available via mail order but apparently can be convinced through retail as well. Despite your claim that people have trouble reading, it's you who've changed your claims to only partial prohibition.
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Just not out in the open where teenagers can stand outside a 7-11 asking strangers to get it for them.
Yes, I should be jailed or have my property taken because I decide to sell a substance you don't like in a place, that I own, that you don't like- fantastic. What buisness is it of yours if I buy or sell on my property? I don't have children, why is it my buisness what some kid does, let alone an excuse to burden me with your nanny state policies?
What's your solution? Instead of in person sales where ID can be verified, you promote mail order where a toddler can order whatever he wants: fantastic plan I'm sure kids couldn't figure out how to mail in a money order or use a credit card- except that somehow I could figure it out, much to your dismay apparently.
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If heroin were available through the same means that many people here get their ethnobotanicals, I'd be okay with that
Not per your prior statement
, because it means you'd actually have to know where to look. I'm even open to being convinced that selling it where children can find it will be okay, but instead of trying to make the case, I get a bunch of accusations and slurs instead. Good job. 
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I only do psychedelics and MDMA, and while I don't think they or any other drug should be illegal outright, I'm fine with them being more tightly regulated than cannabis.
Right: you choose to do a neurotoxic amphetamine and that's fine, but nobody better use those 'any other drug[s]' without your permission and in the ways you're comfortable with. Uh huh, so what exactly was misrepresented here? Your a prohibitionist, but it just so happens that the drugs that you wouldn't burden are the drugs you choose to do: including neurotoxic drugs that actually have some evidence of toxic effects.
Seems pretty arbitrary criteria here. I can't use my prozac or take a GHB supplement, but you can keep on buying and selling your MDMA, because... shit, well actually you never provided any reason whatsoever- at all. Great argument 
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Icelander said:
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Silversoul said: I'm all for decriminalizing all drugs(not going after people for possession) as Portugal has done. Legalization is another matter. Legalization involves the actual sale of drugs. It also happens to be a matter of degree, and I think there should be a sliding scale in terms of the availability of drugs. Plainly put, I don't think heroin should not be as readily available as cannabis. I do think doctors should be able to prescribe maintenance doses to addicts. Perhaps it should even be available through mail order. But I would hesitate to allow it to be sold in supermarkets. There may be an argument to be made in favor of that, and perhaps supermarkets would choose not to sell it anyway, but I'd be a bit hesitant to go forward with a full-fledged "anything goes" attitude.
I love it how people who get pissy that their favorite drug is illegal get all uptight but then want to ban other drugs that others use.
If the sale of drugs were illegal but the use legal you would be condemning the very folk who bring you your medicine to a criminal life or putting it in the hands of the authorities which we know we can all trust to have our best interest at heart.

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Silversoul
Rhizome


Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 23,576
Loc: The Barricades
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Re: All drugs should be legalised... debate. [Re: johnm214]
#14535452 - 05/30/11 11:44 AM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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All I'm advocating is caution, and all you people do is berate and throw ad hominems. This is not how you get drugs legalized, okay? You need to actually make your case. I'm not saying that any one solution is necessarily the best. The mail-order thing was just a suggestion. I'm honestly unsure what the best strategy is, and I want to see the case made for why a less cautious approach is worth having. But throwing around words like "prohibitionist" does absolutely nothing for your case.
Pretend I'm a soccer mom who's concerned about her kids getting heroin at the supermarket. Make the case for why that fear is unfounded. Keep in mind that kids in this country have greater access to alcohol and cigarettes than to illegal drugs, and that they are more widely used by them than any other substance.
Make your case. Don't just assume that "anything goes" is the default position. Explain why families out in suburban America should be comfortable with your proposal. Keep in mind that the arguments in the OP mainly address issues of criminalization, and that the Portugal model seems to address most of those issues, while prescribing maintenance doses for addicts has proven effective in places like the Netherlands. I'm simply talking about policies that have proven to work, and asking that the case be made why going further than that would be advisable.
I await further twisting of my words.
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery



Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
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Re: All drugs should be legalised... debate. [Re: Simms]
#14535541 - 05/30/11 12:02 PM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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Simms said:
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Icelander said: Then don't believe it, ones beliefs are their own personal thing.
Well I'm going with Poid here. Plus you shared a personal belief and made it public.
Humans are pretty violent. When the Soviet Union came apart the very first thing may of the individuals did was pick up weapons and try to wipe each other off the map.
Well, the same thing existed DURING the soviet union also. What was the second thing? And third thing?
The first thing is a state of panic and a conflict between those who are in the comfort of old regime, trying to establish their comfort again, and between those who have breaken free from their comfort zones towardsing to progression.
History doesn't show a lot of moving away from violence with regime change.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery



Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
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Re: All drugs should be legalised... debate. [Re: Silversoul]
#14535588 - 05/30/11 12:10 PM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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Never meant to imply anything about which drug is your favorite.
And why not out in the open? It's up to parents to work with children on what is safe and what is not. Your safe avenues if I remember correctly included govt control.
And I made a case in argument that criminalizing sales makes your source into a criminal.
Tighter regulation is how we got into this mess in the first place. When some of these substances were legal you didn't see people dying or going nuts left and right. Controlling substances is about controlling freedoms. It might be nice if people were allowed to control themselves a little more and be controlled by govt a little less.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Silversoul
Rhizome


Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 23,576
Loc: The Barricades
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Re: All drugs should be legalised... debate. [Re: Icelander]
#14535638 - 05/30/11 12:18 PM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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Icelander said: And I made a case in argument that criminalizing sales makes your source into a criminal.
I thought I made myself pretty clear that I'd be open to different ways of permitting the sale of these substances. While I was in the shower, it occurred to me that you could probably dissuade enough first-time users of some of these hard substances simply by regulating them the cigarettes are, so that they're locked behind a plastic case and you have to ask the cashier to get it for you. Maybe even have them out of sight so you have to specifically know what you're looking for before you ask.
James P. Gray, author of Why Our Drug Laws Have Failed: A Judicial Indictment Of War On Drugs suggests that harder drugs be sold in separate stores in plain brown boxes clearly labeled with dosage information, sold by government-authorized facilities at below market price so that no street dealer can make a profit off of it. That's actually a little bit more restrictive than what I'd like, but that's the kind of comprehensive thinking I'm talking about.
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Tighter regulation is how we got into this mess in the first place. When some of these substances were legal you didn't see people dying or going nuts left and right.
Actually, drug addiction first became a real problem in the 19th century, when there were no regulations.
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Controlling substances is about controlling freedoms. It might be nice if people were allowed to control themselves a little more and be controlled by govt a little less.
I understand this sentiment, and I'd like to agree with it, but there are issues that come up that I don't think can be resolved simply by chanting "freedom" and assuming everything will just work out alright.
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Edited by Silversoul (05/30/11 12:26 PM)
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery



Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
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Re: All drugs should be legalised... debate. [Re: Silversoul]
#14535835 - 05/30/11 12:56 PM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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Drug addiction is a personal problem not a govt one. Should we regulate chocolate and alcohol and any other thing one can become addicted to.
My personal view is let people take responsibility and consequences for what goes into their bodies. There will be some fallout of course but that's perfectly natural.
I'm willing to take my chances on self responsibility. If I OD or become an addict I'll have to deal.
The trouble with regulation is someone else decides what is good or bad, too much, etc.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Silversoul
Rhizome


Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 23,576
Loc: The Barricades
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Re: All drugs should be legalised... debate. [Re: Icelander]
#14535880 - 05/30/11 01:02 PM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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Icelander said: Drug addiction is a personal problem not a govt one. Should we regulate chocolate and alcohol and any other thing one can become addicted to.
My personal view is let people take responsibility and consequences for what goes into their bodies. There will be some fallout of course but that's perfectly natural.
I'm willing to take my chances on self responsibility. If I OD or become an addict I'll have to deal.
The trouble with regulation is someone else decides what is good or bad, too much, etc.
I get it: you don't care about social outcomes. It's all about personal responsibility. That's a common sentiment. Personally, I care about the consequences of policies. What I'm trying to figure out is how to create the optimal balance of personal freedom and a healthy society. It may very well be that a free-for-all is the best system. I don't know. But I would advise a precautionary principle about how we get there.
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery



Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
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Re: All drugs should be legalised... debate. [Re: Silversoul]
#14535991 - 05/30/11 01:19 PM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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True I'm not too worried about social outcomes. Of course wanting individuals to be personally responsible is like wanting life to be fair and just as likely 
I think the human experiment is a wash so I'm just out to have some fun.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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mushiepussy

Registered: 02/06/11
Posts: 1,198
Loc:
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Re: All drugs should be legalised... debate. [Re: Icelander]
#14536324 - 05/30/11 02:34 PM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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Well obviously mdma shouldn't be sold in the candy isle, but over the counter should be ok.
I will take it a step further and say that maybe for the harder drugs, a doctors approval should be required. Just a once every 5-10years check up kinda deal, to make sure people with mental disorder don't hurt themselves or others. Nobody wants a schizophrenic dude trippin on alot of fresh acid to be hangin out by the grocery store. Safety first 
This would make it hard for children or "dangerous users" to use, and easy for the average citizen to get their fix. Win win.
Lol.. I can't believe this is even a debate on this website.
All drugs should be legalized.. Fight the Power!
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