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Shop: Kraken Kratom Red Vein Kratom   PhytoExtractum Maeng Da Thai Kratom Leaf Powder   Unfolding Nature Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

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InvisibleMufungo
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Re: [Re: xFrockx]
    #14528663 - 05/28/11 11:00 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

xFrockx said:
"An atom, a person, a group, they are each a gestalt which exist to the extent at which we focus on the overall pattern instead of the individual parts (which was what I was hinting at in the other thread). By exist I mean, they can be perceived, like I can perceive a car instead or as well as a bunch of random mechanical parts, like I can perceive a person instead or as well as a bunch of body parts, like I can perceive a group of people instead of or as well as each individual person in the group."

Ok, about this gestalt stuff, I've always wondered how a whole can be more than the sum of its parts. I think to myself "But isn't a whole exactly the sum of its parts?" For example:

".."

Is that a group of two periods, or two individual periods? Is it a face? Or is it just what it is?




What is being referred to when talking about a gestalt isn't the mathematical aspect 1+1=2 or the sum of all the atoms in the body make up a person. But rather, it refers to the arrangement or the pattern of the parts that when arranged in a particular way, creates something else, something more, in the mind. Like if I put a person in a blender, blended up their body into some sort of goo, and poured it out in front of you, without prior knowledge, you probably wouldn't say "that's a person", because it wouldn't any longer be distinguishable as a person. The sum of the parts of a person in this example, doesn't make a person in the mind, it makes a pile of mush.

With respect to the two dots you wrote, that doesn't really demonstrate the nature of a gestalt in my mind. But on the other hand, the emoticon using a colon ":" and a closed bracket ")" does... ":)"  We can recognise that combination of key strokes as a smiley face because our minds make something extra. The smily face isn't a product of the sum of the parts, it's a product of our minds making sense of the parts in a particular pattern so as to see a smily face. Hence, the whole being more than just a sum of its parts.

So the same can be applied to almost anything we perceive because, as was mentioned earlier, when we imagine seeing things at a lower order level (the parts), all of a sudden the "thing" at a higher order level can be imagined not to exist. E.g. When I think about the smiley face as just being a colon and a closed bracket, and if I put the bracket through the middle of the colon, it's not a smiley face anymore.

So a group exists to the same extent that a person exists, to the same extent that we perceive solid objects etc. Because we perceive a gestalt from the sum of its parts which is more than solely a sum of the parts.


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OfflinexFrockx
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Re: [Re: Mufungo]
    #14528709 - 05/28/11 11:14 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

"something more, in the mind."

"So a group exists to the same extent that a person exists, to the same extent that we perceive solid objects etc. "

"in the mind."

"Because we may perceive a gestalt from the sum of its parts which is more than solely a sum of the parts."



And let me ask you this. Does the mind only exist by-gestalt as well? What does that mean, if the gestalt is something done "in the mind"? 

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InvisibleMufungo
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Re: [Re: xFrockx]
    #14528747 - 05/28/11 11:23 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

So what do you think?


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Invisiblejohnm214
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Re: "Why do you contradict everything I say!?" [Re: xFrockx]
    #14528863 - 05/28/11 11:49 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

xFrockx said:
If you were tying your boat to a dock and I notice that you've made a mistake in the knot, should I just pass you by?




Perhaps, I would hope not though.

On the philosophy forum, however; I always found such a protest to be amazingly sophmoric, ignorant.  What exactly is a philosophy discussion forum if not a place to debate ideas and such?  Usually these people seem to be those who can't tolerate any disagreement, however slight.  Babies, in other words, that apparently would like to see a forum that has people simply stating unsupported edicts for everyone to obey.  As the spiritualy forum shows: that doesn't really work unless everyone agrees with each other, and if this is the case, is there much to discuss in a philosophical sense?

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InvisibleMufungo
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Re: "Why do you contradict everything I say!?" [Re: johnm214]
    #14528915 - 05/29/11 12:04 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

However, if someone notices a mistake in your knot and can't offer any solution to fix your mistake, because they claim to know nothing about knots, and instead "the helper" just keeps calling out "That's a mistake too", would you want them to just pass on by then?


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Invisiblejohnm214
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Re: "Why do you contradict everything I say!?" [Re: Mufungo]
    #14528981 - 05/29/11 12:37 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Mufungo said:
However, if someone notices a mistake in your knot and can't offer any solution to fix your mistake, because they claim to know nothing about knots, and instead "the helper" just keeps calling out "That's a mistake too", would you want them to just pass on by then?





Probably not if I didn't want to loose the boat, but I don't think that's particularly helpful as a metaphor for the interactions on this forum, if this was the implication, as the forum is a place provided for the purpose of social discussion of philosophy, and someone making a flawed claim is not simply tieing his own boat up wrong, but rather advising on the correct way to tie up boats.  If the philosophical claims is wrong, or the knot ineffective, it would be helpful for someone to observe such even if they know not how to correct it, as the false information has been eliminated and hence the forum's information became more accurate and helpful.

Additionally, in philosophy and in this forum, people often assert how to construct knots, or make philosophical claims, that cannot be constructed (such as proving god doesn't exist, proving a teapot isn't orbiting, et cet).  In this case nobody would be able to correct it, yet if the correct path is to restrain from commenting on that which you cannot rehabilitate, the idea goes unchallenged and the forum aquires an entire class of matter which is erroneous by definition yet is continually suggested in error: making the forum contain more incorrect garbage.

The logical thing from someone who doesn't want to have his knots corrected to do is to not enter a knot-tieing convention attempting to derive new knots for tieing boats.  How silly would it be to enter the convention and announce a new boat-tieing knot and then become upset and resentful that someone indicated a failing of the knot making it unable to hold boats?  Would it be helpful or anything other than a worthless distraction for the offended person to attempt to change the rules or expectations of the convention to prohibit anyone observing deficiencies in new announced knots?  There certainly would be a lot more boats floating out to sea, and the convention would likely be far less helpful- it would be questionable whether it is really a knot tieing convention in that case, as something that cannot hold a boat is not a boat-tieing knot, and some false claim on the forum is not a valid philosophical proffer.

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InvisibleMufungo
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Re: "Why do you contradict everything I say!?" [Re: johnm214]
    #14529162 - 05/29/11 01:47 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Nice answer. Very detailed too. :thumbup:

I didn't intend my last post as a metaphor for interactions on this forum but perhaps instead a metaphor for some who consider themselves "the helper" with that particular style.

From where I sit, it certainly is helpful if a person points out what they consider a mistake and then provide a possible solution to the mistake, which in turn can be tested to determine the validity, and then discourse continues back and forth til (hopefully) a better knot is tied/discovered. Or at the very least if the helper pointing out the mistake explains how it's a mistake, then that too can also be very helpful, i.e. "There was a mistake in your knot because, see the knot did not stop the boat from drifting out to sea".


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OfflinexFrockx
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Re: [Re: Mufungo]
    #14529365 - 05/29/11 03:33 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

The self is like a mirage in the desert. Some are always fooled and think its real water, but when they try to drink from it it remains always out of reach. Some follow long enough to realize that no matter how close you think you're getting it stays out of reach, and it's not really water anyway.

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Re: [Re: Mufungo]
    #14529371 - 05/29/11 03:34 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

"However, if someone notices a mistake in your knot and can't offer any solution to fix your mistake, because they claim to know nothing about knots, and instead "the helper" just keeps calling out "That's a mistake too", would you want them to just pass on by then?"

Just because someone knows nothing about knots does not mean there are knots they would not find fault with when it came to practical use. Fault there might be the wrong word, because all knots are what they are, and have different uses, strengths, and weaknesses. There is no such thing as a perfect knot.

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Invisiblejohnm214
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Re: [Re: xFrockx]
    #14529383 - 05/29/11 03:40 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Mufungo said:
Nice answer. Very detailed too. :thumbup:




Thanks


Quote:

I didn't intend my last post as a metaphor for interactions on this forum but perhaps instead a metaphor for some who consider themselves "the helper" with that particular style.





Ok.  I wasn't sure where you were going, but dealt with the metaphor for the forum since I know some don't like debate in this forum and get upset when encountering it.  I tried to explain why I felt that was a bit silly.



Quote:

From where I sit, it certainly is helpful if a person points out what they consider a mistake and then provide a possible solution to the mistake, which in turn can be tested to determine the validity, and then discourse continues back and forth til (hopefully) a better knot is tied/discovered. Or at the very least if the helper pointing out the mistake explains how it's a mistake, then that too can also be very helpful, i.e. "There was a mistake in your knot because, see the knot did not stop the boat from drifting out to sea".




Sure.  :thumbup:


Quote:

xFrockx said:
The self is like a mirage in the desert. Some are always fooled and think its real water, but when they try to drink from it it remains always out of reach. Some follow long enough to realize that no matter how close you think you're getting it stays out of reach, and it's not really water anyway.





I think emotions are a big part of what creats that mirage.  You can be very comfortable with an idea only to have someone say a few things to you that make you realize you were wrong in this confidence.  From my own life, I think sometimes I'm convinced of something because of my emotional acceptance of it, rather than any logical reason, yet if I'm challenged I will try to defend it logically even though its a loosing battle.  I think this accounts for a lot of the cognitive dissonance people experience: emotional convictions that aren't realized as such.  I think its a major factor in how I think, anyways, and I try to stay aware of how my mood and personal preferences influences me even when I'm trying to be objective and coldly logical.

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InvisibleLunarEclipse
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Re: [Re: xFrockx]
    #14529929 - 05/29/11 09:30 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

xFrockx said:
"However, if someone notices a mistake in your knot and can't offer any solution to fix your mistake, because they claim to know nothing about knots, and instead "the helper" just keeps calling out "That's a mistake too", would you want them to just pass on by then?"

Just because someone knows nothing about knots does not mean there are knots they would not find fault with when it came to practical use. Fault there might be the wrong word, because all knots are what they are, and have different uses, strengths, and weaknesses. There is no such thing as a perfect knot.





It's snot twat you stink of it that matters.  Snot at all.  There is no such stink as a perfect snot.  Some always hangs there leaving a need for a wipe or further blow.

Don't smell me I don't know snots.  I don't like to be preached at.  Papa.


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