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Offlinewood chip
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alder pellets too fine for shiitake
    #14528422 - 05/29/11 12:04 AM (9 years, 11 months ago)

Has anyone used alders pellets for shiitake cultivation?  I don't know if there is standard size sawdust used when manufacturing pellets, but the sawdust I experimented with was to fine for Shiitake cultivation.   

The substrate formula below was used at a rate of 2.5 kg/bag 

70 percent of too fine alder sawdust generated from pellets.
20 percent wheat bran
10 percent millet
64 percent moisture content

I found this out the typical way by accident.  All the extra grain spawn generated fruited very well, but the blocks barley fruited at all.

Also, when peeling the bags from the block the sawdust because it was to fine stuck in the creases at the bottom of the bag causing some of the brown skin to be ripped off.

The said substrate was also used for Maitake, and the mushrooms fruited prolifically.     

Anyone had a similar experience?


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Re: alder pellets too fine for shiitake [Re: wood chip]
    #14528802 - 05/29/11 01:34 AM (9 years, 11 months ago)

That sounds far too nutrient rich.  Try adding wood chips to saw dust (2sd to 1 chips) and just 1/4 cup bran to 2kg.


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Offlinewood chip
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Re: alder pellets too fine for shiitake [Re: NSF]
    #14528945 - 05/29/11 02:18 AM (9 years, 11 months ago)

Sounds? 

Its is a standard and well know c/n ratio that works.  I have used up to 40 percent bran without issue using red oak sawdust 3 mm length in the past. Sometimes with and sometimes without wood "chips" depending on its use.  Log spawn for example should never contain chips for obvious reasons.


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Re: alder pellets too fine for shiitake [Re: wood chip]
    #14529597 - 05/29/11 08:47 AM (9 years, 11 months ago)

That's too much supplementation.  It's fine for other species but not for shiitake.
RR


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Offlinewood chip
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Re: alder pellets too fine for shiitake [Re: RogerRabbit]
    #14530484 - 05/29/11 02:29 PM (9 years, 11 months ago)

That has not been my experience.   
What amount of supplementation have you found to be ideal?

The problem I describe I think is from the sawdust size being too fine.  This causes the skin and popcorn to form differently.


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Offlinewood chip
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Re: alder pellets too fine for shiitake [Re: RogerRabbit]
    #14545541 - 06/01/11 02:33 PM (9 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

RogerRabbit said:
That's too much supplementation.  It's fine for other species but not for shiitake.
RR




I think it depends take a look at this study
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC239248/pdf/aem00135-0203.pdf

In a nutshell two substrates are tested for BE using three shiitake stains:

Substrate 1        Substrate 2
10%-------------- 10%                millet
16%-------------- 10%                wheat bran
74%-------------- 80%                red oak

There are some differences according to the authors data.  But the long incubation period seems to allow for near equal BE

I do not think a blanket statement in term of the substrate being too rich (30% in my case) is as important as the aeration, texture, and moisture content of the substrate in relation to particle size of the sawdust generated from pellets.  I think the cost of bran is a good reason to use only 10% if there are no differences in terms of yields.


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OfflineRogerRabbitM
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Re: alder pellets too fine for shiitake [Re: wood chip]
    #14545912 - 06/01/11 04:05 PM (9 years, 11 months ago)

I guess you're the expert.  I just grow them for a living. :shrug:
RR


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Re: alder pellets too fine for shiitake [Re: RogerRabbit]
    #14546440 - 06/01/11 05:44 PM (9 years, 11 months ago)

Likewise, and I make a lot of spawn


But about the subject posted.  Look at the texture of this sawdust.


If one compares this sawdust to pellet sawdust it becomes clear the aeration factors will be different.  The phenomena I am proposing with pellets is that the block seal to a varying extent with shiitake manifested by a different/smoother skin/popcorn development with a much longer incubation time. I am not stating this an exact or only cause of the phenomena.  I hate to have to clarify that but so often a theory is interpreted at a statement of fact.

RR I can see what you are doing works well for you.  I am not challenging your experimental knowledge.


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Re: alder pellets too fine for shiitake [Re: wood chip]
    #14546738 - 06/01/11 06:43 PM (9 years, 11 months ago)

My comment was on the excessive supplementation.  As for fine sawdust, that's a no-brainer.  You might check what I've previously written about fine sawdust here, here, here, here, here, here, here,here, and many other places over the years.  Use course sawdust, and 3% to 5% supplementation for best results with shiitake, not 30% as was often used 20+ years ago before we learned better.  Other species can use higher supplementation, but shiitake doesn't do well on high supplement rates.
RR


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semper in excretia sumus solim profundum variat

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Re: alder pellets too fine for shiitake [Re: RogerRabbit]
    #14547464 - 06/01/11 09:13 PM (9 years, 11 months ago)

Well that is some good news
But one thing and this is a quote from another RR post in regards to Shiitake

Quote:

Around 5% wheat or rice bran will speed up colonization of sawdust, and the rest of the supplementation I do with increased spawn rate


 

Increased to what?

What kind of yields have you seen with no supplementation using the same spawning rates?


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Re: alder pellets too fine for shiitake [Re: wood chip]
    #14547863 - 06/01/11 10:43 PM (9 years, 11 months ago)

Actually, after further testing and experimentation to get maximum B.E., I've started to use less supplementation and less spawn, not more. I've dropped spawn rate to 1:20, or 5% and results are much better, contrary to just about every book I've read on Shiitake.

I used to consider 80% to 90% B.E. over two to three flushes to be excellent, based on early texts from the 70s and 80s, such as the one you referenced above.  I now consider less than 100% B.E. on first flush to be close to failure.  Nearly that much again comes in later flushes after the blocks are moved outdoors.

Using a higher supplementation rate leads to fewer mushrooms, more mutants with fat stems and tiny caps, lower B.E., and an earlier onset of green molds.
RR


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Re: alder pellets too fine for shiitake [Re: RogerRabbit]
    #14548322 - 06/02/11 12:09 AM (9 years, 11 months ago)

So wait RR, lemme understand please...

You use less supplementation and spawn with less and get better results!?

If you don't mind, what is the substrate mix you use for your shiitake?

is it just 5% wheat/rice bran, 5% spawn, 40% course saw dust and 40% chips?

and if you don't also mind, do you use gypsum and is there any type of chips you prefer over others?

Thanks a bunch!


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FYI: I stole all my pix off google! F+ PORN! Here is a shit-ton of porn by yours truly!

I have FINALLY written up a couple teks as to how SHP has done things in the past. DISCLAIMER: This is not for the newbie to mycology, and not going to work for everyone! This is simply what works for one person when other teks and methods have failed miserably!
~~~~~How SHP does their unconventional WBS Prep!! (NO DRY METHOD)~~~~
~~~~~SHP's highly disputed method of doing ALL their work outside of a flow hood or a Still air box!~~~~~
~~~~~Troubles harvesting the side and bottom pins in your mono? Learn how!! Dunking included ;-)~~~~~


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Re: alder pellets too fine for shiitake [Re: slapphappypill]
    #14548376 - 06/02/11 12:21 AM (9 years, 11 months ago)

No chips.  Course sawdust, a bit of straw, and a bit of bark.  I also use a combination of conifer and hardwoods.  Search this forum using my name and 'supplementation' or 'supplements'.  I've gone into quite a bit of detail about how less is more when it comes to shiitake.  You want most of the supplements to have been consumed by fruiting time.
RR


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Re: alder pellets too fine for shiitake [Re: RogerRabbit]
    #14550202 - 06/02/11 12:12 PM (9 years, 11 months ago)

This is 40 percent wheat bran 60 percent oak and  a little gypsum there were no aborts



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Re: alder pellets too fine for shiitake [Re: wood chip]
    #14550336 - 06/02/11 01:01 PM (9 years, 11 months ago)

Sensitivity in supplementation varies from strain to strain I have found
through my own trials. Try that ratio with shiitake 75 and you will
have a mass of mutant blobs, deformed caps, and a very low BE.


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Re: alder pellets too fine for shiitake [Re: EvilMushroom666]
    #14550743 - 06/02/11 02:45 PM (9 years, 11 months ago)

Yeah, I'm going to be using Evil's shiitake 75 so I'll be going with RR's method

Thanks for the invaluable info RR! I should have results to post in 3 months of so, and I'll have plenty of pics! Thanks to you too Evil (obviously!)!


--------------------
We think we have freedom, but we're all just mice in a maze....

                   

FYI: I stole all my pix off google! F+ PORN! Here is a shit-ton of porn by yours truly!

I have FINALLY written up a couple teks as to how SHP has done things in the past. DISCLAIMER: This is not for the newbie to mycology, and not going to work for everyone! This is simply what works for one person when other teks and methods have failed miserably!
~~~~~How SHP does their unconventional WBS Prep!! (NO DRY METHOD)~~~~
~~~~~SHP's highly disputed method of doing ALL their work outside of a flow hood or a Still air box!~~~~~
~~~~~Troubles harvesting the side and bottom pins in your mono? Learn how!! Dunking included ;-)~~~~~


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Re: alder pellets too fine for shiitake [Re: wood chip]
    #14551474 - 06/02/11 05:45 PM (9 years, 11 months ago)

Considering that we don't eat shiitake stalks there's going to be a fair bit of waste here woodchip.  RR tends to get all cap, fine stalk.  For personal grows i'd prefer more cap and less stem.  Selling them...well that's a tale of ethics i guess.


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Re: alder pellets too fine for shiitake [Re: wood chip]
    #14551909 - 06/02/11 07:25 PM (9 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

wood chip said:
This is 40 percent wheat bran 60 percent oak and  a little gypsum there were no aborts






That's why you have such huge stems and tiny caps. Stems are discarded rather than consumed like caps are. Cut your supplement rate by 3/4 and watch performance increase.(if you want to of course)
RR


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semper in excretia sumus solim profundum variat

"I've never had a failed experiment.  I've only discovered 10,000 methods which do not work."
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Re: alder pellets too fine for shiitake [Re: RogerRabbit]
    #14554739 - 06/03/11 11:10 AM (9 years, 11 months ago)

RR Thanks for the advise.   

I am definitely going to try it.

A little off topic, but do you ever add sawdust into you grains when generating spawn?


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Re: alder pellets too fine for shiitake [Re: wood chip]
    #14559910 - 06/04/11 02:37 PM (9 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

wood chip said:


A little off topic, but do you ever add sawdust into you grains when generating spawn?




I am pretty sure he doesn't. It has no advantage whatsoever to do so. I have been growing lots of shiitake in many different ways and have been researching it quite a bit.  With most mushrooms, and I am reffering to wood inhabiting mushrooms, it is best to start out supplementing on the very low side and increase as you try again. The mushrooms are after the cellulose, lignin and hemi-cellulose. In this case it's the lignin which shiitake seem to like the most. The supplementation is only to get the fungus growing quickly and to help provide the basic nutrition the fungus needs, anything more is just a waste and in some cases detrimental (in some cases species will not fruit at all). The ability for the fungus to fruit many mushrooms on a given substrate is largely genetic..........especially shiitake.

Lipa


Edited by lipa (06/04/11 02:43 PM)


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