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Franco Hamman
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Registered: 02/26/15
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Re: Strain Thread-Strain Discussion Here Only Please [Re: TheEaglesGift]
#21876341 - 06/30/15 01:47 AM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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What happens when a fruit has been isolated and cloned too many times?
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Franco Hamman
Stranger



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Re: Strain Thread-Strain Discussion Here Only Please [Re: Franco Hamman]
#21876344 - 06/30/15 01:50 AM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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How does straw, HPOO and gypsum compare to HPOO, verm and gypsum?
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mustangbob3
Mad Myrmecologist



Registered: 10/15/14
Posts: 1,685
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Re: Strain Thread-Strain Discussion Here Only Please [Re: Franco Hamman]
#21876349 - 06/30/15 01:52 AM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
What happens when a fruit has been isolated and cloned too many times?
eventually old age will affect it just like any living thing
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Aero
Orea


Registered: 11/01/13
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Re: Strain Thread-Strain Discussion Here Only Please [Re: mustangbob3]
#21876392 - 06/30/15 02:26 AM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
mustangbob3 said:
Quote:
What happens when a fruit has been isolated and cloned too many times?
eventually old age will affect it just like any living thing 
The performance will eventually drop
-------------------- SPREAD THE SPORES
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TheEaglesGift
The Nagual


Registered: 04/10/11
Posts: 10,554
Loc: Ixtlan, Mexico
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Re: Strain Thread-Strain Discussion Here Only Please [Re: Aero]
#21876428 - 06/30/15 02:51 AM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
Aero said:
Quote:
mustangbob3 said:
Quote:
What happens when a fruit has been isolated and cloned too many times?
eventually old age will affect it just like any living thing 
The performance will eventually drop
Yes, but then you can always go back to spores and start over. Spores reset everything, so to speak.
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NumeroEno
I come from the land of lizards



Registered: 07/24/14
Posts: 9,652
Loc: Gamehendge
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Re: Strain Thread-Strain Discussion Here Only Please [Re: TheEaglesGift]
#21876893 - 06/30/15 07:39 AM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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Now, has anyone attempted to continue RR's work with PE6? Couldn't it still be stabilized in theory? I have no idea how to go about it but I would love to try.
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Let it grow! Let it grow! Greatly yield! What shall we say, shall we call it by a name As well to count the angels dancing on a pin Water bright as the sky from which it came And the name is on the earth that takes it in DOG FOOD AGAR MY ELECTRIC INOCULATION LOOP
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Pastywhyte
Say hello to my little friend



Registered: 09/15/12
Posts: 37,810
Loc: Canada
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Re: Strain Thread-Strain Discussion Here Only Please [Re: NumeroEno]
#21876907 - 06/30/15 07:46 AM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
NumeroEno said: Now, has anyone attempted to continue RR's work with PE6? Couldn't it still be stabilized in theory? I have no idea how to go about it but I would love to try.
It could be possible but would be quite difficult. The more generations that pass after the cross the harder it will be due to net loss of heterozygosity. That work should have been done at the beginning.
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Aero
Orea


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Re: Strain Thread-Strain Discussion Here Only Please [Re: Pastywhyte]
#21876922 - 06/30/15 07:54 AM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
Pastywhyte said:
Quote:
NumeroEno said: Now, has anyone attempted to continue RR's work with PE6? Couldn't it still be stabilized in theory? I have no idea how to go about it but I would love to try.
It could be possible but would be quite difficult. The more generations that pass after the cross the harder it will be due to net loss of heterozygosity. That work should have been done at the beginning.
U would pretty much have to start it all over again. Or if u are lucky enough to have a pe like fruit that drops spores then u can clone that and try to isolate the trait
-------------------- SPREAD THE SPORES
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Franco Hamman
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Re: Strain Thread-Strain Discussion Here Only Please [Re: Aero]
#21877138 - 06/30/15 09:08 AM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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Some PE genes? Fruit from Amazon Cubes...
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Aero
Orea


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Re: Strain Thread-Strain Discussion Here Only Please [Re: Franco Hamman]
#21877174 - 06/30/15 09:22 AM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
Franco Hamman said:

Some PE genes? Fruit from Amazon Cubes...
yea thats never PE
-------------------- SPREAD THE SPORES
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NumeroEno
I come from the land of lizards



Registered: 07/24/14
Posts: 9,652
Loc: Gamehendge
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Re: Strain Thread-Strain Discussion Here Only Please [Re: Pastywhyte]
#21878594 - 06/30/15 03:21 PM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
Pastywhyte said:
Quote:
NumeroEno said: Now, has anyone attempted to continue RR's work with PE6? Couldn't it still be stabilized in theory? I have no idea how to go about it but I would love to try.
It could be possible but would be quite difficult. The more generations that pass after the cross the harder it will be due to net loss of heterozygosity. That work should have been done at the beginning.
That's sort of what I figured. The gene pool just gets bigger over time.
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Let it grow! Let it grow! Greatly yield! What shall we say, shall we call it by a name As well to count the angels dancing on a pin Water bright as the sky from which it came And the name is on the earth that takes it in DOG FOOD AGAR MY ELECTRIC INOCULATION LOOP
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MudaFuka
Poppin bottles



Registered: 12/14/13
Posts: 18,648
Loc: Canada
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Re: Strain Thread-Strain Discussion Here Only Please [Re: NumeroEno]
#21879051 - 06/30/15 04:51 PM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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The gene pool gets smaller over time. Every time you start a grow using spores from a single print. You are inbreeding.
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Pastywhyte
Say hello to my little friend



Registered: 09/15/12
Posts: 37,810
Loc: Canada
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Re: Strain Thread-Strain Discussion Here Only Please [Re: MudaFuka]
#21879788 - 06/30/15 07:35 PM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
MudaFuka said: The gene pool gets smaller over time. Every time you start a grow using spores from a single print. You are inbreeding.
that's why stabilization needs to be done early. Because at first your chances are better, by limiting genetics carefully you can weed out a lot of the unwanted ones. But after a certain poi t, say 7 generations the amount you can limit is greatly reduced. At the same time despite there being a very small amount of heterozygosity, there is still a huge amount of variation. This means that unless you narrow the field early, it would take a fantastic amount of inbreeding to narrow out everything but the desired phenotype. This would take many generations and potentially destabilize the line. Much like what is actually is happening with PE.
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TheEaglesGift
The Nagual


Registered: 04/10/11
Posts: 10,554
Loc: Ixtlan, Mexico
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Re: Strain Thread-Strain Discussion Here Only Please [Re: Pastywhyte]
#21881193 - 07/01/15 01:19 AM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
This would take many generations and potentially destabilize the line. Much like what is actually is happening with PE.
I'm still not convinced this is PEs issue.
Why only PE? Why are no other strains destabilizing?
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Franco Hamman
Stranger



Registered: 02/26/15
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Re: Strain Thread-Strain Discussion Here Only Please [Re: TheEaglesGift]
#21881302 - 07/01/15 01:48 AM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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Is PE coming to an end??
Noooo, I have still to grow some!!
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Aero
Orea


Registered: 11/01/13
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Re: Strain Thread-Strain Discussion Here Only Please [Re: Franco Hamman]
#21881376 - 07/01/15 02:11 AM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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PE is very stable. I Dont know what are u talking about. People pulling full canopies with PE time to time. Its still vigorous
-------------------- SPREAD THE SPORES
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mustangbob3
Mad Myrmecologist



Registered: 10/15/14
Posts: 1,685
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Re: Strain Thread-Strain Discussion Here Only Please [Re: TheEaglesGift]
#21881389 - 07/01/15 02:16 AM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
TheEaglesGift said:
Quote:
This would take many generations and potentially destabilize the line. Much like what is actually is happening with PE.
I'm still not convinced this is PEs issue.
Why only PE? Why are no other strains destabilizing?
evolution and destabilization will happen because of pressure. to effectivly breed and change ratios you need pressure. just selecting a fruit and printing at each generation will keep ratios the same. to evolve you have to break genetic equilibrium we do this by appyling pressure and then selection.
PE is doing this itself( applying the pressure and forcing change)
in PE s case PE pheno Fruits dont print well so dont get to pass on their genes, this puts pressure in 1 spot on the genes causing a shift!
as most fruits that go on to be printed have less PE characteristics this over generations swings the ratios and makes The PE pheno more uncommon at each generation if care is not taken with selection when printing.
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Aero
Orea


Registered: 11/01/13
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Re: Strain Thread-Strain Discussion Here Only Please [Re: mustangbob3]
#21881396 - 07/01/15 02:18 AM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
mustangbob3 said:
Quote:
TheEaglesGift said:
Quote:
This would take many generations and potentially destabilize the line. Much like what is actually is happening with PE.
I'm still not convinced this is PEs issue.
Why only PE? Why are no other strains destabilizing?
evolution and destabilization will happen because of pressure. to effectivly breed and change ratios you need pressure. just selecting a fruit and printing at each generation will keep ratios the same. to evolve you have to break genetic equilibrium we do this by appyling pressure and then selection.
PE is doing this itself( applying the pressure and forcing change)
in PE s case PE pheno Fruits dont print well so dont get to pass on their genes, this puts pressure in 1 spot on the genes causing a shift!
as most fruits that go on to be printed have less PE characteristics this over generations swings the ratios and makes The PE pheno more uncommon at each generation if care is not taken with selection when printing.
U Dont need a printing PE. Use swabs to collect spores. Simple. Numerous grows here show you that pe has spores but won't drop it. Who needs spores all over the substrate when u can just collect it with a qtip when needed
-------------------- SPREAD THE SPORES
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mustangbob3
Mad Myrmecologist



Registered: 10/15/14
Posts: 1,685
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Re: Strain Thread-Strain Discussion Here Only Please [Re: Aero]
#21881421 - 07/01/15 02:30 AM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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yes but the point is people still do collect and buy spores and not from selected fruits with swabs just any that will drop, and alot of the time they lack the defining qualitys of the PE fruit, and thats why it is de-stabilizing!
the point is who is controling what fruits spores are selected from!
we should think of PE pheno as a mutation and mutations in a given genepool either become high in the frequency ratios and splits and is classed as a new species or the mutation is reabsorbed into the genepool and shows up here and there.
which way PE will go will depend on the people who do selection and this will ultimately decide where PE is heading.
PE is unique and has unique traits/faults that put pressure on the genepool, as PE provides its own pressure from its weakness in spore drops is needs no human to apply this pressure and natural selection will take place! it will force the line to change 1 way or the other thats genetics and that evolution sorry!
pressure + selection = evolution
PE takes care of these 'musts' for breeding or evolving new varietys and does it itself! without us intervening. we are literaly watching evolution in progress sped up! we are quite honoured to see it really and is a good experiment that shows evolution in real time.
if we are to breed varietys like pastys crs project first you need a goal to work towards!
pot luck dont cut it!
work out ratios ect and work punnet squares to know what you are looking for at each generation before you even get there! this way you know the possibilitys before you begin.
first use backcrossing to a stud (a selected clone with traits you want) to increase frequencys toward the choosen stud, do this 3 times or cubing.
this makes your choose trait/s show up with precise regularity in the next inbred filal generations and limits the genetic dominances to the ones you have selected in your stud. each back cross is done by taking a single spore from the stud and growing out a monoksryotic culture, when colonised LC OF the stud is injected to make the mono a dikaryotic culture of the studs genes and the single spores. the a fruit is then selected from this backcross generation with the traits present to select 1 single spore( prob best doing multiple monokrayotic single spore culture to test a few) again to cross to the original stud culture.
then this is repeated at each generation up till the 3rd
ratios work like this... 1st backcross generation spores- will have a reset of 50% stud genes / 50% single spore genes(remeber too this single spore is just a reset of the stud culture genes in spore form, they are very close as it was just a reset of the stud) 2nd backcross generation spores- will have a reset of 75% stud genes/ 25% single spore genes 3rd backcross or cube generation spores - will have a reset of 87.5% stud genes / 12.5% single spore genes
spore taken from the 3rd backcross will show 87.5% het to the dominances of the stud culture!
now if this is then line bred each generation will give lots of fruits with the required characteristic making selection easy.
backcrossing is a genetic shortcut used in breeding so we dont need large groups and lots of generations.
PE can easily be saved this way without recourse to starting from scratch.
line breeding is outdated, backcrossing help secure you your visual traits/ genetic markers easily. use inbreeding in filal generations to open up the genetic catalogue then select a clone with the traits desired. backcross to swing frequencys in your favour. line breed to fully stabalise in a few generations. this is the modern way
line breeding stabalizes the backcross work! dont be fooled thinking you have to start from scratch.
it can be used to stack traits from different varietys in the same way.
pasty could use this to make his crs cross easily and then stabilze after achieving the result. at the first cross he needed to select a fruit with both traits and use as a stud culture as described above.
after cubing this clone, the spores taken from any just about any fruit at each following filal generation in normal breeding would show lots and lots of candidates to select from with the said traits and as the frequencys are already now in his favour and it would then be stabalised easily in maybe 3 or 4 filal generations. imo
working on paper like this wins. it removes luck and works with numbers and science to see the possibilitys at each stage without doing a thing! this ets you plan the whole project before starting! all good breeding projects are done this way. not many if any succeed by chancing the generations, as at each step you will have no marker to say if frequencys have gone up,down or stayed the same.( unless a large population is grown out at each stage) also remeber unless there is a pressure, selection is pointless and normally just works like a reset keeping the frequencys basically the same. this wastes breeding and breeders time! not to mention confuses and mixes the line so you cant keep track! its not the right or done thing! using a stud culture applies pressure at the genome affecting exactly the traits you have selected for... the you carry on selecting for what you want. this pressure + selection is what breeds the new variety... selection alone can take hundreds if not thousands of years and not get far lol evoulutionary rates go up and down just look at humans. it the pressure applied that speeds the change. the skill of a breeder is knowing how to apply pressure and what pressure to get a predicted result. i.e grow in cold for cold resistance genes to show ect it relys on a pressure. a lot of breeding i see attempted dont take this into account so is slow and painful to watch.
a good place to start to learn in with the mendal pea experiments to learn how traits pass over. then apply backcross teks and work the punnet squares to see if what you want is achieveable and how to go about it this show what exact traits will show up and in what frequency!
making stabalising though line breeding easy as you have lots of examples of the traits at each generation.
all we can do is be the selectors and guide things the way we want but in regards to PE and similar(redboy ect) it will take a collective effort of everyone and all need to understand the importance of selection when working with a strain/variety that makes its own pressures of change, breaking genetic equilibrium and forcing its own evolution by naturally favoured races passing on genes.
Edited by mustangbob3 (07/01/15 04:58 AM)
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Fractal420
Psycellium



Registered: 06/21/13
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Re: Strain Thread-Strain Discussion Here Only Please [Re: mustangbob3]
#21881560 - 07/01/15 03:56 AM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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I would imagine, even with the nature occurence of evolution, its not like all PE comes from one source. Sure, maybe people on here get it mostly from the same vendor. But each person who is growing their own PE (or who has prints from years ago) can restart the cycle, so its not like some sort of finite strain, though, even if it changes aesthetically, id imagine it would only be for the better. Might look more like a classic cube but i dont see any reason for potency to drop or anything like that. Maybe like KSSS theyll look less abnormal over time, but they will still kick ass.
-------------------- Dreaming of That face again. It's bright and blue and shimmering. Grinning wide And comforting me with it's three warm and wild eyes. Prying open MY third eye
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