|
Some of these posts are very old and might contain outdated information. You may wish to search for newer posts instead.
|
Nemodeus
Introvert

Registered: 04/01/14
Posts: 427
|
Re: Strain Thread-Strain Discussion Here Only Please [Re: Pastywhyte]
#19972305 - 05/11/14 02:36 PM (9 years, 8 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Pastywhyte said: Not really considering the amount of differential within said lineage. All African Americans can be said to have the same genetic lineage and many common traits exist but, both Shaq and Gary Colman are African americans, do you think they are that similar? How about Michael Jackson compared to Barry Bonds? They are identical right?
I clearly acknowledged that specific isolates from any given strain (people from any given race) would vary.
But if your looking for dark skin and curly hair its probably best to start with african american parents versus for example german parents don't you think?
-------------------- In an entheogen influenced moment of clarity I came to understand that reality manifests as a dream from the collective subconscious minds of all conscious entities. Nothingness made something because we collectively believe it into being, and physical laws given power by the reinforcement of conscious observation. Creation, destruction, and even time itself are but an aspect of ourselves and we of them. Life and death, simply illusions we face from a limited grasp of our own existence. We are one, all is eternal.
|
Pastywhyte
Say hello to my little friend



Registered: 09/15/12
Posts: 37,808
Loc: Canada
|
Re: Strain Thread-Strain Discussion Here Only Please [Re: Nemodeus]
#19972334 - 05/11/14 02:44 PM (9 years, 8 months ago) |
|
|
Yeah I agree with that. My point is that with mushrooms its a lot more subtle than that so, unless your working with mutant varieties like PE or AA+ I doubt most people would even notice. As for potency I like to compare that to inteligence in people. Which race is the smartest, no one could say for sure. Some would say asians others would say Germans. But then you can have an east indian who is a genuis.
Fact is most people don't even know what they want when they are starting out. I thought I wanted big fruits at first so I started with B+. Now tho my favs are the squat fatass bastards like KSSS and APE. The point is just get started with cubes and figure out how to grow in the first place, the rest will come.
|
cronicr



Registered: 08/07/11
Posts: 61,436
Loc: Van Isle
Last seen: 2 years, 7 days
|
Re: Strain Thread-Strain Discussion Here Only Please [Re: Pastywhyte]
#19972424 - 05/11/14 03:07 PM (9 years, 8 months ago) |
|
|
--------------------
  It doesn't matter what i think of you...all that matters is clean spawn I'm tired do me a favor
|
MudaFuka
Poppin bottles



Registered: 12/14/13
Posts: 18,648
Loc: Canada
|
Re: Strain Thread-Strain Discussion Here Only Please [Re: cronicr]
#19972435 - 05/11/14 03:10 PM (9 years, 8 months ago) |
|
|
Nice picture of Barry Bonds.
|
cronicr



Registered: 08/07/11
Posts: 61,436
Loc: Van Isle
Last seen: 2 years, 7 days
|
Re: Strain Thread-Strain Discussion Here Only Please [Re: MudaFuka]
#19972451 - 05/11/14 03:15 PM (9 years, 8 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
MudaFuka said: Nice picture of Barry Bonds.
--------------------
  It doesn't matter what i think of you...all that matters is clean spawn I'm tired do me a favor
|
Nemodeus
Introvert

Registered: 04/01/14
Posts: 427
|
Re: Strain Thread-Strain Discussion Here Only Please [Re: Pastywhyte]
#19972475 - 05/11/14 03:21 PM (9 years, 8 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Pastywhyte said: Yeah I agree with that. My point is that with mushrooms its a lot more subtle than that so, unless your working with mutant varieties like PE or AA+ I doubt most people would even notice. As for potency I like to compare that to inteligence in people. Which race is the smartest, no one could say for sure. Some would say asians others would say Germans. But then you can have an east indian who is a genuis.
Fact is most people don't even know what they want when they are starting out. I thought I wanted big fruits at first so I started with B+. Now tho my favs are the squat fatass bastards like KSSS and APE. The point is just get started with cubes and figure out how to grow in the first place, the rest will come.
I couldn't pick a smartest race of humans, but humans are also not selectively bred for intelligence.
With as many years that people have been working with cube strains one would think some clear leaders for potency should be emerging by now. Instead of building on the previous generations efforts each new generation of breeder keeps starting from scratch because everyone says a cube is a cube.
I don't know if people are hording all the good genetics for themselves, or maybe they just haven't been breeding for potency, or maybe there are clear leaders for potency around but everyone gets lost in the sea of spore choices.
-------------------- In an entheogen influenced moment of clarity I came to understand that reality manifests as a dream from the collective subconscious minds of all conscious entities. Nothingness made something because we collectively believe it into being, and physical laws given power by the reinforcement of conscious observation. Creation, destruction, and even time itself are but an aspect of ourselves and we of them. Life and death, simply illusions we face from a limited grasp of our own existence. We are one, all is eternal.
|
cronicr



Registered: 08/07/11
Posts: 61,436
Loc: Van Isle
Last seen: 2 years, 7 days
|
Re: Strain Thread-Strain Discussion Here Only Please [Re: Nemodeus]
#19972486 - 05/11/14 03:26 PM (9 years, 8 months ago) |
|
|
the few short years people have been working with mushrooms won't change much drasticly considering how long they have been around for
--------------------
  It doesn't matter what i think of you...all that matters is clean spawn I'm tired do me a favor
|
PrimalSoup
hyperspatial illuminations



Registered: 11/17/09
Posts: 13,568
Loc: PNW
Last seen: 1 year, 5 months
|
Re: Strain Thread-Strain Discussion Here Only Please [Re: Pastywhyte]
#19972523 - 05/11/14 03:37 PM (9 years, 8 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Pastywhyte said: Most cubes are just cubes. If you want typical results then just avoid mutants like PE, APE, PEU, and KSSS. If you want mutants and weird fruits then chose the ones I just listed. Albinos are also cool 
Sticky that somewhere.
PS
--------------------
if you stand too close to the machine it'll start to eat youPrimal's simple tested teks and projects: Wheat Prep 2.0 Acidic Tea Tek Potency Project!
|
Dr.GREEN-THUMB


Registered: 06/02/11
Posts: 1,143
|
Re: Strain Thread-Strain Discussion Here Only Please [Re: PrimalSoup]
#19973441 - 05/11/14 08:14 PM (9 years, 8 months ago) |
|
|
If anybody has a PE strain please send me a thank you!
|
PrimalSoup
hyperspatial illuminations



Registered: 11/17/09
Posts: 13,568
Loc: PNW
Last seen: 1 year, 5 months
|
Re: Strain Thread-Strain Discussion Here Only Please [Re: Nemodeus]
#19973448 - 05/11/14 08:16 PM (9 years, 8 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Nemodeus said: I don't know if people are hording all the good genetics for themselves, or maybe they just haven't been breeding for potency,
Yeah that's it. 
PS
|
Nemodeus
Introvert

Registered: 04/01/14
Posts: 427
|
Re: Strain Thread-Strain Discussion Here Only Please [Re: PrimalSoup]
#19973517 - 05/11/14 08:33 PM (9 years, 8 months ago) |
|
|
Too busy breeding colorless dicks..
-------------------- In an entheogen influenced moment of clarity I came to understand that reality manifests as a dream from the collective subconscious minds of all conscious entities. Nothingness made something because we collectively believe it into being, and physical laws given power by the reinforcement of conscious observation. Creation, destruction, and even time itself are but an aspect of ourselves and we of them. Life and death, simply illusions we face from a limited grasp of our own existence. We are one, all is eternal.
|
Dr.GREEN-THUMB


Registered: 06/02/11
Posts: 1,143
|
Re: Strain Thread-Strain Discussion Here Only Please [Re: Nemodeus]
#19973650 - 05/11/14 09:12 PM (9 years, 8 months ago) |
|
|
If anybody has a PE strain please send me a thank you! Now back to noobs trolling :-)
|
Fractal420
Psycellium



Registered: 06/21/13
Posts: 5,913
Last seen: 8 months, 14 days
|
Re: Strain Thread-Strain Discussion Here Only Please [Re: Pastywhyte]
#19975086 - 05/12/14 07:47 AM (9 years, 8 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Pastywhyte said: Not really considering the amount of differential within said lineage. All African Americans can be said to have the same genetic lineage and many common traits exist but, both Shaq and Gary Colman are African americans, do you think they are that similar? How about Michael Jackson compared to Barry Bonds? They are identical right?
No, they are not equipotent black people (lol, they vary in potency), but they ARE all black people, and they share the black skin trait and other features, like any other genetic preset. One thing you won't see are two black people with no other DNA (e.g. African only, speficially dark skinned African) that have sex and produce a baby that looks like Justin bieber.
They may have a child that looks different than they do, but it would still be the same lineage. And black people produce potent albinos too!
http://www.pinterest.com/madamecurly/beautiful-black-albinos/
Lol! I think race is a great analogy, because that's exactly what a strain is
-------------------- Dreaming of That face again. It's bright and blue and shimmering. Grinning wide And comforting me with it's three warm and wild eyes. Prying open MY third eye
|
Pastywhyte
Say hello to my little friend



Registered: 09/15/12
Posts: 37,808
Loc: Canada
|
Re: Strain Thread-Strain Discussion Here Only Please [Re: Fractal420]
#19975182 - 05/12/14 08:15 AM (9 years, 8 months ago) |
|
|
Yes but the point is, they are still people, they still have the potential for a lot of variability, and to untrained eye, they are not much different than lets say a pure African, even tho African Americans are the result of centuries of selective breeding. If you want a race of cubes that is the equivalent of a white person grow AA+ Even tho there is still the potential to isolate large fruits and small ones, just like some Caucasian people are tall and some are short 
Genetic isolation is the key your missing here. It doesn't matter where you start, you can isolate for pretty much anything with a little time and patience. Obviously certain strains might give you a leg up on some aspects macroscopically but, if its yield or potency your looking for, they all have the same potential in that regard when you use agar. That's why I use the intelligence analogy, no race has been proven to be "smarter".
|
blindingleaf
blue collar underworld



Registered: 07/19/13
Posts: 22,008
Loc: sub-surface unseen
|
Re: Strain Thread-Strain Discussion Here Only Please [Re: Pastywhyte]
#19975297 - 05/12/14 08:45 AM (9 years, 8 months ago) |
|
|
cubes are looking down at this thread and saying "this is all going according to plan bwa ha ha ha......"
they grow us.
-------------------- A few thoughts on cultivation MICROBIAL HUSBANDRY!!!! The whole is greater than the sum of its parts
|
Fractal420
Psycellium



Registered: 06/21/13
Posts: 5,913
Last seen: 8 months, 14 days
|
Re: Strain Thread-Strain Discussion Here Only Please [Re: Pastywhyte]
#19976780 - 05/12/14 03:08 PM (9 years, 8 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Pastywhyte said: Yes but the point is, they are still people, they still have the potential for a lot of variability, and to untrained eye, they are not much different than lets say a pure African, even tho African Americans are the result of centuries of selective breeding. If you want a race of cubes that is the equivalent of a white person grow AA+ Even tho there is still the potential to isolate large fruits and small ones, just like some Caucasian people are tall and some are short 
Genetic isolation is the key your missing here. It doesn't matter where you start, you can isolate for pretty much anything with a little time and patience. Obviously certain strains might give you a leg up on some aspects macroscopically but, if its yield or potency your looking for, they all have the same potential in that regard when you use agar. That's why I use the intelligence analogy, no race has been proven to be "smarter".
Domesticated strains tend to be more resistant and can grow around contams for example, isn't that smarter? I'm sure since people started growing, their DNA has been changing slowly
-------------------- Dreaming of That face again. It's bright and blue and shimmering. Grinning wide And comforting me with it's three warm and wild eyes. Prying open MY third eye
|
Fractal420
Psycellium



Registered: 06/21/13
Posts: 5,913
Last seen: 8 months, 14 days
|
Re: Strain Thread-Strain Discussion Here Only Please [Re: Fractal420]
#19976796 - 05/12/14 03:10 PM (9 years, 8 months ago) |
|
|
I would love to compare a B+ from many generations down to a cube print from the woods, one that has never seen a vendor, so a first generation in terms of indoor cult.
-------------------- Dreaming of That face again. It's bright and blue and shimmering. Grinning wide And comforting me with it's three warm and wild eyes. Prying open MY third eye
|
PrimalSoup
hyperspatial illuminations



Registered: 11/17/09
Posts: 13,568
Loc: PNW
Last seen: 1 year, 5 months
|
Re: Strain Thread-Strain Discussion Here Only Please [Re: Fractal420]
#19977207 - 05/12/14 04:16 PM (9 years, 8 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Fractal420 said: I would love to compare a B+ from many generations down to a cube print from the woods, one that has never seen a vendor, so a first generation in terms of indoor cult.
Well don't talk about, just do it. My grows from wild cubes (see this huge thread) have worked just like domesticated strains. 
PS
--------------------
if you stand too close to the machine it'll start to eat youPrimal's simple tested teks and projects: Wheat Prep 2.0 Acidic Tea Tek Potency Project!
Edited by PrimalSoup (05/12/14 07:37 PM)
|
Pastywhyte
Say hello to my little friend



Registered: 09/15/12
Posts: 37,808
Loc: Canada
|
Re: Strain Thread-Strain Discussion Here Only Please [Re: PrimalSoup]
#19977749 - 05/12/14 06:25 PM (9 years, 8 months ago) |
|
|

Fractal I didn't plan to reply to you any more as you seem to have your mind made up but, I will post this for anyone who cares 
Fact is that when we take a print from a single fruit in the wild, we have already seriously narrowed down the defining genetics a lot. Cube patches have a massive amount of genetic diversity and that is what makes wild prints both slightly unpredictable, as well as offering the best possible chance to breed "traits" like what you are implying.
The problem however with the notion of breeding more potent cubes, or faster ones, or larger ones, through successive generations is that small gene pool your working with (the fruit or few fruits that were printed to start the variety). Without the massive genetic diversity that the wild patch has and works with through natural selection, your efforts to train or domesticate traits, will ultimately lead to a destabilization of the genetics and be counterproductive. Your best bet would be to start with a wild fruit for the most noticeable results.
Quote:
Workman said: OK, so what is this point, or how many generations until you can be confident you have a true breeding strain? With a wild strain you would assume 100% heterozygosity. Previously domesticated strains will obviously have less heterozygosity but since that is unknown it doesn't hurt to be conservative.
Mathematically you can see the reduction in variability with each generation. It drops off quickly and then around generation 5 or 6 the gains in stability drop off dramatically. After generation 7, with heterozygosity less than 1%, the rate of random mutations will outpace any small amount of remaining variabilty loss in later generations.
Wild 100% F1 50% F2 25% F3 12.5% F4 6.25% F5 3.125% F6 1.5625% F7 0.78125%
Generate several strains from the spore print and you should expect to see huge differences between these new strains if the heterozygosity is high. Choose the strain(s) with traits you want (in this case, cap color and size) and take prints. Repeat with these new prints. You can probably feel pretty confident that after doing this 5 or 6 times that the strain is stable, especially if you don't see any new variants in the later generations.
Quote:
Workman said: I should point out that common sense dictates that inbreeding is bad since it can expose recessive genetic defects or undesirable traits. Ideally you want high heterozygosity to give a particular mushroom strain a wide range of available genes, which in turn makes it better adapted to unpredictable environmental conditions. This could be achieved by cloning a wild vigorous specimen or by crossing two very different strains. In my experience, the mushrooms resulting from such a cross are very vigorous and productive (hybrid vigor).
So we have some (not as much as you think) potential to influence a varieties behavior. AA+ was pushed to be leucistic, PE looks like a dick. But for the most part, the one thing that most vendors do when they are expanding their stock, is look for genetics that produce lots of spores. Makes sense that's the product. So most of your varieties are already manipulated for a purpose and the amount you are going to be able to influence it is minimal.
The good news is that even within that narrow band of variability, there is still a lot of potential for random mutation, your just not going to be able to breed it into the line before inbreeding becomes an issue. So instead use agar. Cloning and isolates will give you all the predictability you could want and you can keep them around for years, decades if you take care of them.
Check out these two fruits from a ms grow. They not only look nothing like each other, they also barely resemble cubes If this is not enough for you to play with and find something you like then your just not trying.

So rather than go looking for a magic bullet variety to get the traits you want, use agar. Or you can get some wilds and do a 1000 grows always going back to your master print(s) to narrow down the field. I guarantee that agar will be faster. I am doing both.
|
Fractal420
Psycellium



Registered: 06/21/13
Posts: 5,913
Last seen: 8 months, 14 days
|
Re: Strain Thread-Strain Discussion Here Only Please [Re: Pastywhyte]
#19978612 - 05/12/14 09:16 PM (9 years, 8 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Fractal I didn't plan to reply to you any more as you seem to have your mind made up but, I will post this for anyone who cares
Hey, hey, hey, I don't not care, nor is my mind made up. I just said that MS syringes, depending on their type, do have a more limited genetic pool. I made no arguments against isolation or agar or any of that, I'm just saying that, like you said, PE looks like a dick, and so on. The only point I'm making is it does matter what the spores are, at least to an extent. And the only reason I haven't worked with a wild cube print is, I've never found one.
Most of what I said/what i think is actually in agreement with you
-------------------- Dreaming of That face again. It's bright and blue and shimmering. Grinning wide And comforting me with it's three warm and wild eyes. Prying open MY third eye
Edited by Fractal420 (05/12/14 09:17 PM)
|
|