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zappaisgod
horrid asshole


Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
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Re: Obama renew's PATRIOT Act, why? [Re: uber_aj]
#14520738 - 05/27/11 01:07 PM (12 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
uber_aj said: I find roving wiretaps intrusive. I find it absurd that the Federal government can label virtually anybody a lone-wolf operative and invade their residence without them knowing to search for incriminating evidence, totally bypassing the constitution. I find the idea that we can indefinitely hold immigrants for questioning to be a preemptive attack on their fourth amendment rights, which they better get used to anyway.
I find it insane that people who ascribe to the ideology of reducing federal government almost unanimously back this power and it's even crazier that you do it without any evidence whatsoever that it has ever been of benefit to anybody's safety. Why so much faith in the federal government all of a sudden?
Oh right, b/c you're afraid of that attack that happened 10 years ago, that we avenged by murdering hundreds of thousands of people in two countries that had nothing to do with it. How long should we allow the Patriot Act to continue for? Indefinitely? Surely we'll always have some enemy...
Which of those is in the Patriot Act? Wiretaps? FISA. Improper searches? Done all the time. The evidence gets thrown out of court. The government could do all of those things without it. And they aren't unconstitutional. For instance they can hold anyone for questioning. They can also search anything if they get a warrant. Did you know that the judiciary is part of the government and that it is judges who issue warrants? Cool story, brah.
If assholes hadn't treated the war on terror as a criminal matter and not an actual war issue as was declared against us those ugly ass buildings would still be standing and my friend's father would still be alive. And yes, we will always have some enemy. Everybody does. It is the human condition. All the drum circles in the world won't change that.
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zappaisgod
horrid asshole


Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
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Re: Obama renew's PATRIOT Act, why? [Re: gabbaganchi]
#14520744 - 05/27/11 01:09 PM (12 years, 8 months ago) |
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gabbaganchi said:
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uber_aj said:
Hogwash. No terrorists are targeting Austin, Texas. In fact, virtually every case of attempted "terrorism" that news companies love to shout from the mountaintops has been stopped b/c a Federal agency set it up in the first place, enabling the would-be terrorists and then arresting them for going forward with the gambit.
this. the basic formula for a drug bust, as well.
Are you trying to tell me that most drug busts are due to entrapment?
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millzy


Registered: 05/12/10
Posts: 12,404
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Re: Obama renew's PATRIOT Act, why? [Re: zappaisgod]
#14520764 - 05/27/11 01:12 PM (12 years, 8 months ago) |
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idk, austin is a huge tech center, a well known city, and orchestrating an attack would rile the fuck out of everyone. personally though, i think dallas (my town) is a prime soft target for something on a really huge scale. you put a nuke downtown or in richardson (telecom corridor), shit, that would change the world forever.
-------------------- I'm up to my ears in unwritten words. - J.D. Salinger
Edited by millzy (05/27/11 01:13 PM)
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uber_aj
Goodbye Shroomery!



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Posts: 4,486
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Re: Obama renew's PATRIOT Act, why? [Re: zappaisgod]
#14520794 - 05/27/11 01:18 PM (12 years, 8 months ago) |
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The Patriot Act made roving wiretaps applicable to businesses as well as private phone numbers/email addresses, etc. Its made evidence collected by the FBI w/o a warrant admissible in court. It's no longer an improper search. Sure, holding people for questioning has always been legal, but not indefinitely, as for immigrants as provided by the Patriot Act.
Youre right, the government could do all those things w/o the Patriot Act, and I would still be opposed to all of them happening. The Patriot Act is simply a validation of all these things, that's why I'm against it.
If Jesus was real I'd be going to Heaven, but he's not. You can't change the past, the building fell, your friends Dad is dead as are the people in Fort Hood. No stretching of government power is going to stop these things from happening in the future, either. Somebody flew a plane into an IRS building here in Austin just a year ago, why didn't the Patriot Act stop him?
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ifoundwaldo


Registered: 09/28/10
Posts: 8,389
Loc: Denver, CO
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Re: Obama renew's PATRIOT Act, why? [Re: millzy]
#14520841 - 05/27/11 01:25 PM (12 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
millzy said: idk, austin is a huge tech center, a well known city, and orchestrating an attack would rile the fuck out of everyone. personally though, i think dallas (my town) is a prime soft target for something on a really huge scale. you put a nuke downtown or in richardson (telecom corridor), shit, that would change the world forever.
Oh, no. Less Texans in the world?
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gabbaganchi
version 4.3



Registered: 03/17/10
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Re: Obama renew's PATRIOT Act, why? [Re: zappaisgod]
#14520846 - 05/27/11 01:26 PM (12 years, 8 months ago) |
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did i say 'most?'
certainly any bust that they want to make, they make happen. stupid people and domestic disturbances put plenty in their lap, too
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uber_aj
Goodbye Shroomery!



Registered: 11/13/05
Posts: 4,486
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Re: Obama renew's PATRIOT Act, why? [Re: uber_aj]
#14520853 - 05/27/11 01:27 PM (12 years, 8 months ago) |
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uber_aj said:
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zappaisgod said: My what a selfish person you are. Here's one they didn't catch because they were being too protective of a lunatic's rights. Nadal Hasan. In Texas. Admittedly NOT your town.
So what, should all military personnel lose all privacy and be monitored 24/7, or should he have been profiled b/c of his name and color?
The entire point here is that the government can't stop every loon from shooting or blowing things up. It will never happen; giving our freedoms and privacy away are not going help anything. It's an emotional reaction (as evidenced by nobody reading the act before passing it) to make the public feel safe, when in reality it has done the polar opposite. Now anybody can be a suspect, anybody can be labeled a terrorist and it's only a matter of time before it extends to people who aren't brown.
Care to answer that question, zappa?
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Micawber
...............................



Registered: 12/29/10
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Re: Obama renew's PATRIOT Act, why? [Re: zappaisgod]
#14520906 - 05/27/11 01:34 PM (12 years, 8 months ago) |
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zappaisgod said: Why don't all you guys explain to me in detail just exactly how the Patriot Act has impacted your life in a negative way that isn't already ensconced in the varied and multifarous laws foisted upon us. Because I haven't experienced one single thing.
i can no longer carry a firearm due to the brady bill that was pushed through with the patriot act
so there
and i have a clean record ex-wife lied and put protection order on me women have it good in court esp with a female judge
-------------------- (mik-kaw'-bur) n. one who is poor but lives in optimistic expectation of better fortune
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dr_gonz

Registered: 08/18/03
Posts: 44,654
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Sophistic Radiance
Free sVs!


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Re: Obama renew's PATRIOT Act, why? [Re: millzy]
#14521061 - 05/27/11 01:57 PM (12 years, 8 months ago) |
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millzy said: i don't have a problem with the patriot act providing it's only used to stop terrorist attacks and not busting high school kids selling ecstasy. i thought they did away with the stuff that was being exploited by law enforcement.
btw, am i the only person who thinks john boehner looks like an evil mofo? that guy looks like he could snap an infants neck without changing his expression.
Yeah, he does. He looks like a reptilian.
Also, FYI, I happen to know his name is actually pronounced "boner."
-------------------- Enlil said: You really are the worst kind of person.
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zappaisgod
horrid asshole


Registered: 02/11/04
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Re: Obama renew's PATRIOT Act, why? [Re: uber_aj]
#14521133 - 05/27/11 02:07 PM (12 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
uber_aj said:
Quote:
uber_aj said:
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zappaisgod said: My what a selfish person you are. Here's one they didn't catch because they were being too protective of a lunatic's rights. Nadal Hasan. In Texas. Admittedly NOT your town.
So what, should all military personnel lose all privacy and be monitored 24/7, or should he have been profiled b/c of his name and color?
The entire point here is that the government can't stop every loon from shooting or blowing things up. It will never happen; giving our freedoms and privacy away are not going help anything. It's an emotional reaction (as evidenced by nobody reading the act before passing it) to make the public feel safe, when in reality it has done the polar opposite. Now anybody can be a suspect, anybody can be labeled a terrorist and it's only a matter of time before it extends to people who aren't brown.
Care to answer that question, zappa?
Sure. Nadal Hasan was specifically given a pass because people who knew he was a lunatic were afraid to speak because of his religious affiliation. http://www.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,1940011,00.html
Quote:
These students, speaking privately because they have been ordered not to speak publicly, say they're angry that what they view as political correctness led their superiors to ignore the warning signs witnessed by students and faculty at the Uniformed Services University of the Health Sciences in Bethesda, Md. Two of them expressed a willingness to testify about Hasan's conduct in the 2007-08 school year but also expressed concern that the military's political sensitivities could compromise any Pentagon investigation.
Aside from that: 1. Yes, you are never going to stop everybody. That is no excuse for not trying to stop as many as you can. 2. The warning signs for Nadal Hasan were not that he was dark or Muslim. His coworkers were chilled from reporting him by a culture of political correctness. This got a lot of people killed. 3. The Patriot Act has not impacted my freedom in any way and not one of you has presented one single example of how it has impacted yours. 4. Unlike the Obamacare bill they have pretty much all read the Patriot Act, unlike the dopes who can't actually cite any issue with it. 5. It has nothing to do with brown. That is a cheap card played by intellectually bereft nitwits who don't know that terrorism has no color. Nor does Islam. 6. Everybody is a suspect. If your rights get trampled by a bad search you get acquitted and you can also get big bucks. There are remedies for prosecutorial malfeasance.
Speaking of immigrants, did you know that they are required to carry identifying documents at all times but the authorities aren't allowed to demand them?
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zappaisgod
horrid asshole


Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
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Re: Obama renew's PATRIOT Act, why? [Re: Micawber]
#14521154 - 05/27/11 02:10 PM (12 years, 8 months ago) |
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Micawber said:
Quote:
zappaisgod said: Why don't all you guys explain to me in detail just exactly how the Patriot Act has impacted your life in a negative way that isn't already ensconced in the varied and multifarous laws foisted upon us. Because I haven't experienced one single thing.
i can no longer carry a firearm due to the brady bill that was pushed through with the patriot act
so there
and i have a clean record ex-wife lied and put protection order on me women have it good in court esp with a female judge
That doesn't have shit to do with the Patriot Act, does it? The Brady bill went into effect in 1994.
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uber_aj
Goodbye Shroomery!



Registered: 11/13/05
Posts: 4,486
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Re: Obama renew's PATRIOT Act, why? [Re: zappaisgod] 1
#14521411 - 05/27/11 02:50 PM (12 years, 8 months ago) |
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Eh, it's easy for people to come out in hindsight and claim they thought he was crazy. I've been to Killeen many times, there are a lot of Christian military people there who'd worry me too. I don't buy that it was political correctness, I'd bet my life savings that it was military camaraderie if anything, not wanting to say he was a lunatic because half of them are. Of course some people are going to come out and say they knew what was up, it helps them deal with the fact that nobody could stop it.
Anyway, you keep believing that the Patriot Act is a lovely terrorism stopper used by the government that just wants to protect us, I'll keep believing that it's a play on our societal fear to broaden the fed govs ability to monitor and invade the privacy of it's own citizens. Either way, I can't show you the negative impacts, you can't show me the positive impacts, so why the fuck should it even exist, it's just more legislation on the books.
And regardless of what we believe, the Patriot Act wouldn't have stopped 9/11, we were tipped off and didn't act, It didn't stop Nadal or Andrew Stack, but it does chip away at the 4th amendment, which coincidentally is as good as dead now that:
Police can hold you for hours while waiting for a K9 to search your car.
Police can search your house w/o a warrant if they smell drugs or hear evidence being destroyed (i.e. toilet flushing).
TSA can search you thoroughly at the airport.
The FBI can search your property w/o consent or a warrant if you're suspected of terrorism.
The DEA can plant secret tracking devices on your car and monitor your movements w/o a warrant.
Hooray for freedom.
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zappaisgod
horrid asshole


Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
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Last seen: 7 years, 7 months
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Re: Obama renew's PATRIOT Act, why? [Re: uber_aj]
#14521585 - 05/27/11 03:17 PM (12 years, 8 months ago) |
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uber_aj said: Eh, it's easy for people to come out in hindsight and claim they thought he was crazy. I've been to Killeen many times, there are a lot of Christian military people there who'd worry me too. I don't buy that it was political correctness, I'd bet my life savings that it was military camaraderie if anything, not wanting to say he was a lunatic because half of them are. Of course some people are going to come out and say they knew what was up, it helps them deal with the fact that nobody could stop it.
Anyway, you keep believing that the Patriot Act is a lovely terrorism stopper used by the government that just wants to protect us, I'll keep believing that it's a play on our societal fear to broaden the fed govs ability to monitor and invade the privacy of it's own citizens. Either way, I can't show you the negative impacts, you can't show me the positive impacts, so why the fuck should it even exist, it's just more legislation on the books.
And regardless of what we believe, the Patriot Act wouldn't have stopped 9/11, we were tipped off and didn't act, It didn't stop Nadal or Andrew Stack, but it does chip away at the 4th amendment, which coincidentally is as good as dead now that:
Police can hold you for hours while waiting for a K9 to search your car.
Police can search your house w/o a warrant if they smell drugs or hear evidence being destroyed (i.e. toilet flushing).
TSA can search you thoroughly at the airport.
The FBI can search your property w/o consent or a warrant if you're suspected of terrorism.
The DEA can plant secret tracking devices on your car and monitor your movements w/o a warrant.
Hooray for freedom.
None of that has anything to do with the Patriot Act. Just fucking stop.
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dr_gonz

Registered: 08/18/03
Posts: 44,654
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makaveli8x8
Stranger

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Re: Obama renew's PATRIOT Act, why? [Re: zappaisgod]
#14521630 - 05/27/11 03:24 PM (12 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
zappaisgod said:
Quote:
uber_aj said: Eh, it's easy for people to come out in hindsight and claim they thought he was crazy. I've been to Killeen many times, there are a lot of Christian military people there who'd worry me too. I don't buy that it was political correctness, I'd bet my life savings that it was military camaraderie if anything, not wanting to say he was a lunatic because half of them are. Of course some people are going to come out and say they knew what was up, it helps them deal with the fact that nobody could stop it.
Anyway, you keep believing that the Patriot Act is a lovely terrorism stopper used by the government that just wants to protect us, I'll keep believing that it's a play on our societal fear to broaden the fed govs ability to monitor and invade the privacy of it's own citizens. Either way, I can't show you the negative impacts, you can't show me the positive impacts, so why the fuck should it even exist, it's just more legislation on the books.
And regardless of what we believe, the Patriot Act wouldn't have stopped 9/11, we were tipped off and didn't act, It didn't stop Nadal or Andrew Stack, but it does chip away at the 4th amendment, which coincidentally is as good as dead now that:
Police can hold you for hours while waiting for a K9 to search your car.
Police can search your house w/o a warrant if they smell drugs or hear evidence being destroyed (i.e. toilet flushing).
TSA can search you thoroughly at the airport.
The FBI can search your property w/o consent or a warrant if you're suspected of terrorism.
The DEA can plant secret tracking devices on your car and monitor your movements w/o a warrant.
Hooray for freedom.
None of that has anything to do with the Patriot Act. Just fucking stop.
I think its related, it all has to do with the direction the country is heading, less freedom more searches. If the patriot act hadn't been resigned, there would be a feeling of relief that things would be heading back to "normal"
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  We were sent to hell for eternity Ø h® We play on earth to pass the time Over-population the root of all Evil-brings the Elites Closer to the gates.
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uber_aj
Goodbye Shroomery!



Registered: 11/13/05
Posts: 4,486
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Re: Obama renew's PATRIOT Act, why? [Re: zappaisgod]
#14521642 - 05/27/11 03:26 PM (12 years, 8 months ago) |
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You don't see any correlation between post 9/11 fear and all of those (except the K9 wait) being upheld by US courts in the following decade? Really?
I'm not saying the Patriot Act is the cause of those other 4th amendment tragedies, but you're a fucking idiot if you don't see the common denominator; our fear of ghosts.
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limestoneman
The Return


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Re: Obama renew's PATRIOT Act, why? [Re: uber_aj]
#14521727 - 05/27/11 03:39 PM (12 years, 8 months ago) |
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Am I the only one to see the puppet strings attached to all of our presidents?
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zappaisgod
horrid asshole


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Re: Obama renew's PATRIOT Act, why? [Re: dr_gonz]
#14521731 - 05/27/11 03:40 PM (12 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
dr_gonz said: was my question unreasonable?
Which one?
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Sophistic Radiance
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Re: Obama renew's PATRIOT Act, why? [Re: limestoneman]
#14521741 - 05/27/11 03:41 PM (12 years, 8 months ago) |
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limestoneman said: Am I the only one to see the puppet strings attached to all of our presidents? 
No, most people do, but also believe in voting for "the lesser of two evils."
-------------------- Enlil said: You really are the worst kind of person.
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