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Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

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Offlineivander
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Made my day
    #14519064 - 05/27/11 01:48 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

I just found this one. Which made me realize how much we dont know, and how much there is still to learn.

[url=
Painting[/url]


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Those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music. - Nietzsche

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OfflineSatyapriya
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Re: Made my day [Re: ivander]
    #14519133 - 05/27/11 02:16 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

That was pure awesome!  Made my day too :laugh:

I had no idea any animal could create a work of art like that, let alone an elephant! :thumbup:


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Offlineskatealex2
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Re: Made my day [Re: Satyapriya]
    #14519191 - 05/27/11 02:55 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

lol. impressive  :sun:

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Invisiblethe human abstract
malaka the werewolf
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Re: Made my day [Re: skatealex2]
    #14519198 - 05/27/11 02:59 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

:what:

:yarly:


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Offlineshroomzi8
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Re: Made my day [Re: the human abstract]
    #14519222 - 05/27/11 03:14 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

i like the fact they bring their own painting boxes! wow. that is incredible. made me cry. when you see films of chimps doing this sort of stuff, it ends up just a sloppy childs painting. this is done by an elephant who has obviously studied muscle shape in others, and taken time to look at the flowers. made my day!! thanks.:heart:

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Invisiblejohnm214
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Re: Made my day [Re: shroomzi8]
    #14519257 - 05/27/11 03:40 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

interesting painting.

They always said elephants were smart.  That had to take a while to teach them to make that picture, with all those brushstrokes.


Quote:

shroomzi8 said:
i like the fact they bring their own painting boxes! wow. that is incredible. made me cry. when you see films of chimps doing this sort of stuff, it ends up just a sloppy childs painting. this is done by an elephant who has obviously studied muscle shape in others, and taken time to look at the flowers. made my day!! thanks.:heart:





Quite a neat video, but I didn't see any indication that the elephant understood what they were painting or what the creation was supposed to represent.  This sort of abstract comprehension is one of the things that is more difficult to judge and learn, and I would assume the elephant isn't able to understand what the picture represents, other than seeing a bunch of lines.

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Offlineshroomzi8
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Re: Made my day [Re: johnm214]
    #14519266 - 05/27/11 03:44 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

only assume tho? cant say for sure? elephant sees elephant. elephant draws lines. lines look like elephant to us. why not to elephant too?

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InvisibleSleepwalker
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Re: Made my day [Re: shroomzi8]
    #14519281 - 05/27/11 03:54 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

:whathesaid: (well, she)

It seems to me that human symbolic thought must be an extrapolation of our more archaic systems of recognition. 

That elephant definitely knows what the profile of another elephant looks like.  I don't see how that shape being on paper would change that.

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Invisiblejohnm214
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Re: Made my day [Re: shroomzi8]
    #14519283 - 05/27/11 03:55 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

shroomzi8 said:
only assume tho? cant say for sure? elephant sees elephant. elephant draws lines. lines look like elephant to us. why not to elephant too?





Sure, it might be able to see and understand the picture, but there just isn't any suggestion that it does.  That kind of thought is much more difficult for animals to accomplish versus learning a series of mechanical movements, from sit, lay down, or drag stick across paper.

I know elephants are one of the few animals known to be able to recognize themselves in the mirror as not just another animal, or a picture, but themselves, but picking up on what a picture is supposed to mean to a bunch of people would seem much more difficult, and I'm not aware of any animal that is able to do so other than people (besides mirror images).  Surely they can recognize shapes and so forth, but to tell what they represent, an elephant or a letter?  There's no evidence of that.

Definately a smart critter anyways, though.  Perhaps this kind of thinking is just more suited for humans for whatever reason.  When your as big as an elephant and just eat shrubbery, you probably don't need to evolve too much of that sort of thinking, though they are very smart for whatever reason.

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Offlineivander
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Re: Made my day [Re: johnm214]
    #14519680 - 05/27/11 07:48 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

They say elephants are intelligent as much as dolphins are.
So I dont think they were forced to learn to paint something as complex as this is. I mean, he is holding flower. He could paint some other object, but flower was the choice. Beside there are some other videos on the tube, with elephant painters.

What I want to say is that, there is more consciousness to this world and these animals, then how much are we willing to realize or admit or explore. And to think that these beautiful creatures were and still are hunted and killed for sport or whatever, clearly reflect on us humans how much primitive animals we are.. and we dare to call our selves civilized.. lol what a joke. Still so much to learn, and we still haven't left kinder garden.


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Those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music. - Nietzsche

I've never faked a sarcasm in my life. True story.

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InvisibleBuckthorn
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Re: Made my day [Re: ivander]
    #14519809 - 05/27/11 08:30 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

that elephant was probably abused ...

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Offlineivander
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Re: Made my day [Re: Buckthorn]
    #14519845 - 05/27/11 08:39 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Many said that to me.. but I dont think so. That particular species is endangered one, so I dont think they would torture him just to make some profit.


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Those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music. - Nietzsche

I've never faked a sarcasm in my life. True story.

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Offlineshroomzi8
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Re: Made my day [Re: Sleepwalker]
    #14519869 - 05/27/11 08:45 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

:whathesaid: (the previous he)
@johnm my dog recognises pictures of my daughter. when its time to pick her up from school he will go over to her pic on the coffee table and paw it. you say there is no evidence for elephants recognition of shapes representing something. there is equally no evidence against. and lets be fair, mr trunky did paint it. if you go to youtube there are plenty of other videos of elephants painting different things.
ps, gorrilas can point out pictures of the things they want. ie apple, toy etc, so why cant elephants recognize elephapts or flowers in pictures?

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OfflineTeamAmerica
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Re: Made my day [Re: Satyapriya]
    #14519907 - 05/27/11 08:57 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Shrooomtastic said:
That was pure awesome!  Made my day too :laugh:

I had no idea any animal could create a work of art like that, let alone an elephant! :thumbup:




Elephants are one of the most intelligent animals on earth next to humans....Open your eyes to your fellow creatures :etbig:

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OfflineOneU
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Re: Made my day [Re: TeamAmerica]
    #14520224 - 05/27/11 10:55 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

That was so beautiful!

It was amazing. It seemed like training the elephant to draw lines but that was perfect to say the least. But to assume it's doing a self-portrait or expressing itself or even observing it is an elephant like itself would be to also assume he/she has become self-aware.

A drawing is not in the animal instinct, it doesn't see/sense it walk and automatically understand it is one of it's own kind. Mate/join pack or fight for territories but elephants are extremely intelligent.

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InvisibleEternalCowabunga
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Re: Made my day [Re: OneU]
    #14520267 - 05/27/11 11:09 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

WOW! I can hardly believe what I just watched.


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Offlinecircastes
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Re: Made my day [Re: EternalCowabunga]
    #14523064 - 05/27/11 07:53 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

This is beautiful.


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Offlineseylm
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Re: Made my day [Re: circastes]
    #14523950 - 05/27/11 10:40 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

On the website they have a few different pictures and they definitely trained it to paint those shapes. It probably doesn't know what it's painting, just that it gets rewards for making lines.


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Re: Made my day [Re: seylm]
    #14524112 - 05/27/11 11:16 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

:shrug: idk

im pretty sure thats more than 40 strokes

if it can memorize 40 strokes i guess thats more amazing bc a lot of people cant do that


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Offlineseylm
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Re: Made my day [Re: the human abstract]
    #14524196 - 05/27/11 11:34 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Yeah it's pretty amazing either way.


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Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order


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