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OfflineBlue Helix
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Crimson-Capped Copelandia (with record BE) * 1
    #14512104 - 05/25/11 09:28 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Grow of The Crimson-Capped Copelandia
(prints courtesy of _OttO_)


This is a grow back in November of 2010.  The cloned specimen was from a crimson-capped pan cyan taken from a multispore germination from a print _OttO_ collected of the Gili Islands in Indonesia in first week of September of 2010.  During this time of year, many pan cyans caps in the area had usual red caps like these in _OttO_'s pictures:



The actual multispore culture from which the clone grown in this log was selected was from a print in the same area of specimens not nearly as red. Here is a picture of them (_OttO_ described them as "on steroids", although they look pretty normal in the pictures to me):



During a small multispore grow from these, one of my drier specimens showed the same red coloration as seen above:



Because in this multispore population the redder specimens generally weren't doing as well as others, I had a hunch that the darker cap color was in response to environmental stressors.  To test this hypothesis, I cloned one of the reddest specimens from above.  The idea was to grow out several trays of the clone to see if all the trays showed a similar redness or only specimens that weren't doing so well.

I hadn't done much work with clones but read pan cyans do benefit quite a bit from selective cloning from actual fruiting bodies.  For this reason I decided to make the grow pretty large as I really wanted to get back to growing edibles, which are my current passion. 

I have never been a real big on clones because good strains tend to yield great whether cloned or not.  I would even say that spectacular strains, like say Ecuadorian cubensis which has always fruited like crazy for me, do not benefit from cloning at all if the sterile spawn bag technique is followed.  I did have high hopes for this clone, but given I had never grown a cloned pan cyan, I didn't know to really expect.  I wasn't disappointed!

Flush 1 (day 9 after casing) - notice the long-stemmed fruits typical of Pan Cyans grown with lower air exchange


Some of the trays on the bottom produced long-stemmed fruits that were not very meaty, the overall pin set was decent but not particularly impressive, and, compared to other grows, the yield was not impressive for a first flush. 

The poorly-shaped fruits were because the air was colder around the grow area, so I had reduced gas exchange to keep the warm air in the chamber.  This resulted in very long stems as pictured above, so I increased the grow area temperature which allowed me to introduce more fresh air into the chamber (the humidity falls if you open up this chamber and the humidifier introduces the fresh, moist air to compensate).  The result of this increased water a second flush on day 11 that made the first flush look like child's play.

Flush 2 (day 11) - only 36 hours later but look what a difference water and fresh air make!


Now the yield for this flush was more to my liking, all because I corrected the conditions that gave the poor yield days before.  This is proof that corrective action, if taken quickly enough, can save a grow.  If I had waited a couple days, though, I would have lost most of the vigor in the trays.  I have found that mycelium momentum is a very important in mushroom growing, and if you lose that momentum (ex. exposure to low temperatures before pin set time), you'll lose yield big time. 

But where is that red color?  While none of the fruits were as deep as the fruit from which they were cloned, it seemed that the better the fruits were doing, the less red they were too.  By this point I think I had proven the idea to myself that the red color was from sun exposure or something which had dried the cap of the specimens that _OttO_ had found.  It was time to put this to the test.

Flush 3 (day 15) - notice the red in the smaller specimens.  It seemed to prove that the redness was caused by environmental stressors.


And those the reds showed up, but the flushes didn't stop there! 

Flush 4 (day 18)


By flush 4 I had already thrown a couple trays (out of five) out for mold.  I don't fuck with mold.  I know some people try to save a tray by using baking soda or whatever, but the problem is that by the time you see a patch of trich, it's too late; the mold has spread way beyond what you can see and is likely running the entire bottom of the tray.  Except for oysters, I would throw out moldy substrates because even if you manage to get another flush from the tray, you risk spreading the mold to other trays, and another lousy flush in one tray just isn't worth that risk in my view.

Flush 5 (day 22) - this was the final flush because most trays were looking pretty sorry by this time, and I had enough mushrooms already (more than I had expected for sure).


All of these fruits were from only three large spawn bags worth of fruiting substrate laid in 5 standard serving trays.  The casing was laid loosely at a depth of 1/4 to 1/3" thick.  It has an initial pH of about 7.8 and consisted approximately of a 1:1:1 mix (per volume) of coco coir, peat moss, and vermiculite.  pH was balanced using a extremely tiny bit of calcium hydroxide and a good deal of agricultural calcium carbonate lime flour (look on Ebay for this stuff - it's great!).  And as I have written in the past, if you don't have a pH probe to help zero in on the right pH, I highly recommend not using calcium hydroxide in the mix because it is just too powerful to guess and can easily drive the pH way too high, which is worse than a tad low in my experience.

Although most of the specimens were not the striking red of _OttO_'s collection, I consider the grow a success because it shows the color is somehow influenced by  the health of the fruit and the yield was amazingly high.  Despite the poor first flush performance, the total yield was about 70% biological efficiency (BE), the highest I have yet seen for Pan Cyan.  I think if I had done everything right, I could have even maybe met 100% BE too, so while pan cyans have the reputation for small yields, I think it has more to do with growing technique than the species. 

As for potency, the dried mushrooms, with the potency standardized across all collected specimens in a flour, are about four times the strength of cubensis per dry weight, so I have plenty for me and my mates for some time.  If I make it there this year, it's going to be a good Burning Man for sure! :mushroom2: :wink: :mushroom2:

BlueHelix


PS - I would love to trade prints and am looking for edibles and a good-fruiting Panellus Stipticus clone (or spores).  You must have clean prints stored in a dry, cool place and at least a few hundred posts to trade with me (sorry newbies).

Edited by Blue Helix (05/26/11 10:08 AM)

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Offline2jew4u
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Re: Crimson-Capped Copelandia (with record BE) [Re: Blue Helix]
    #14512162 - 05/25/11 09:39 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Nice interesting colour, Wonder if you could breed them to stay red?

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InvisibleHorizonSpawn
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Re: Crimson-Capped Copelandia (with record BE) [Re: 2jew4u]
    #14512197 - 05/25/11 09:46 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Man! Some of those flushes look thick enough that you could sleep on them! :smile:


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Please assume any and all prints exchanged are "WILD" in nature; and thus, should NOT be considered ASEPTIC...

NOTE:  Please excuse my brevity, as it is a bitch 'n' a half and slow as hell to type on this here phone :frown:

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OfflineBlue Helix
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Re: Crimson-Capped Copelandia (with record BE) [Re: 2jew4u]
    #14512207 - 05/25/11 09:48 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

I think increasing the light intensity would bring back the red color but probably reduce the overall yield.  When they dried, the red coloration was barely noticeable though.

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InvisibleLuger0815
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Re: Crimson-Capped Copelandia (with record BE) [Re: Blue Helix]
    #14512256 - 05/25/11 09:56 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Wow, that is just amazing...:eek:

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InvisibleeLShaMukO
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Re: Crimson-Capped Copelandia (with record BE) [Re: Blue Helix]
    #14513052 - 05/26/11 12:19 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

what PH on the casing?


looks great :smile:


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OfflineMcDude
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Re: Crimson-Capped Copelandia (with record BE) [Re: eLShaMukO]
    #14513198 - 05/26/11 12:50 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Very nice :awesomenod:


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OfflineMegaGoomba
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Re: Crimson-Capped Copelandia (with record BE) [Re: Blue Helix]
    #14513272 - 05/26/11 01:07 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Awesome color, and very nice trays. :thumbup:

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OfflinePrimal Call
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Re: Crimson-Capped Copelandia (with record BE) [Re: Blue Helix]
    #14513404 - 05/26/11 01:47 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

fantastic!

:mushroom2::mushroom2::mushroom2::mushroom2::mushroom2:


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OfflineCaptainAhab


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Re: Crimson-Capped Copelandia (with record BE) [Re: Primal Call]
    #14513539 - 05/26/11 02:38 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Amazing job, blue helix! I will add this to my panaeolus thread. You are in there, already, but thIs post is especially deserving. It's good to see these kinds of experimentally based projects, especially with pans. Another member and I have been discussing whether temperature is species specific, or not, and this seems to validate that. What were the temps you mentioned, exactly?

Here's the pan thread I mentioned:
http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/13249652#13249652


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Re: Crimson-Capped Copelandia (with record BE) [Re: CaptainAhab]
    #14513554 - 05/26/11 02:43 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

it's good to see these kinds of experimentally based projects, especially with pans



:werd:


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OfflineBlue Helix
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Re: Crimson-Capped Copelandia (with record BE) [Re: eLShaMukO]
    #14514394 - 05/26/11 10:11 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Thanks for the compliments, guys.  The casing pH was mixed up to about 7.8 (changed the post to reflect that).  I also do not recommend the use of calcium hydroxide without a pH probe to make sure you don't drive the pH too high because it is just too powerful to guess.

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Offlinek00laid
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Re: Crimson-Capped Copelandia (with record BE) [Re: Blue Helix]
    #14514464 - 05/26/11 10:28 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

looks awesome broski


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Offlinehusmmoor
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Re: Crimson-Capped Copelandia (with record BE) [Re: Blue Helix]
    #14515460 - 05/26/11 01:52 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Amazing!:mushroom2:

Any details on substrate composition and depth of substrate ?
(apart from the casing that you mentioned already)

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OfflineBlue Helix
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Re: Crimson-Capped Copelandia (with record BE) [Re: husmmoor]
    #14520166 - 05/27/11 10:41 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

My pan cyan substrate has always been pretty simple and the same since I started having amazing yields on this:

1) Horse Manure (dried and well shredded)      75.0 oz
2) Wild Bird Seed (cheapest brand is best)      18.8 oz
3) Water (source doesn't seem to matter)      188.0 oz
4) Vermiculite (coarse stuff is better)          2.5 liter

The water above is an estimate and not to be taken as gold.  Manures differ in consistency and water content as does everything.  The final moisture content should ideally be about 65% by weight.  Take 20g and dehydrate the same well in microwave (don't carbonize it but get it as dry as possible).  The weight of a 20g sample fully dehydrated should be 7g.  Moisture content is too important to guess and do by "feel".  I've been growing a long time now, and I still test because it's just that important.  The only exception is if you are very familiar with the particular ingredients you are using and know they haven't changed since the last testing.

Also don't get caught up in making substrates too rich and adding a whole bunch of grains, oils, or snake oil that you read about on Shroomery that will blow your yield through the roof.  Mostly adding a lot of stuff leads to LOWER yields and often even straight up contamination.  The richer the substrate, the more chance it'll contaminate when transferred to the trays from the spawn bag.  Further this species doesn't seem to benefit from the substrate being much richer (unlike cubes that do seem to like richness).  The reason it is better to keep the substrate mostly manure is because Pan Cyans don't colonize nearly as tight as say cubensis, and if you are moving fast like you should, the substrate is never perfectly 100% colonized when it is time to lay the trays.  That's when the mold can start too easily on a tiny grain that wasn't colonized.  This species doesn't have the firepower to fight it off either, so it's just a matter of time before it'll take over and you'll lose your later flushes over the whole deal.

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Re: Crimson-Capped Copelandia (with record BE) [Re: Blue Helix]
    #14520363 - 05/27/11 11:39 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Blue Helix said:
My pan cyan substrate has always been pretty simple and the same since I started having amazing yields on this:

1) Horse Manure (dried and well shredded)      75.0 oz
2) Wild Bird Seed (cheapest brand is best)      18.8 oz
3) Water (source doesn't seem to matter)      188.0 oz
4) Vermiculite (coarse stuff is better)          2.5 liter

The water above is an estimate and not to be taken as gold.  Manures differ in consistency and water content as does everything.  The final moisture content should ideally be about 65% by weight.  Take 20g and dehydrate the same well in microwave (don't carbonize it but get it as dry as possible).  The weight of a 20g sample fully dehydrated should be 7g.  Moisture content is too important to guess and do by "feel".  I've been growing a long time now, and I still test because it's just that important.  The only exception is if you are very familiar with the particular ingredients you are using and know they haven't changed since the last testing.

Also don't get caught up in making substrates too rich and adding a whole bunch of grains, oils, or snake oil that you read about on Shroomery that will blow your yield through the roof.  Mostly adding a lot of stuff leads to LOWER yields and often even straight up contamination.  The richer the substrate, the more chance it'll contaminate when transferred to the trays from the spawn bag.  Further this species doesn't seem to benefit from the substrate being much richer (unlike cubes that do seem to like richness).  The reason it is better to keep the substrate mostly manure is because Pan Cyans don't colonize nearly as tight as say cubensis, and if you are moving fast like you should, the substrate is never perfectly 100% colonized when it is time to lay the trays.  That's when the mold can start too easily on a tiny grain that wasn't colonized.  This species doesn't have the firepower to fight it off either, so it's just a matter of time before it'll take over and you'll lose your later flushes over the whole deal.




What temperatures gave you low and high yields?


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Offlinehusmmoor
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Re: Crimson-Capped Copelandia (with record BE) [Re: Blue Helix]
    #14521743 - 05/27/11 03:41 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Thanks very much for sharing your knowledge, Blue Helix. :thumbup:

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Offline_OttO_
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Re: Crimson-Capped Copelandia (with record BE) [Re: husmmoor]
    #14525176 - 05/28/11 06:42 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Thankyou for writing this up Blue, very exciting! Im so glad that some of the prints from those collections were put to good use.... They really were life changing times hunting for them so I hope they live on for a while yet. :mushroom2: :cheers:

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OfflineBlue Helix
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Re: Crimson-Capped Copelandia (with record BE) [Re: CaptainAhab]
    #14561024 - 06/04/11 05:25 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Pan Cyan's like around 78F and up.  Failure to keep the temperature up will result in very poor yields usually.  They are not as forgiving in this regard as cubes seem to be.

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Re: Crimson-Capped Copelandia (with record BE) [Re: Blue Helix]
    #14561044 - 06/04/11 05:31 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

its that heating cable i see in your chamber ?

how is that working for you , i was thinking of getting 12 ft. of that


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