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InvisibleSlashOZ
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Registered: 10/20/06
Posts: 3,557
Loc: Following the water cycle
Slavoj Zizek, ever read any of his books?
    #14511419 - 05/25/11 07:02 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

I'm re-reading The Puppet and the Dwarf right now. It makes a lot more sense as a college grad than it did the summer before senior year of high school. I highly suggest it to everyone. It covers philosophy, ideology, pop culture, and psychology all at once as do most of his works.

In this book he argues that one should adopt a materialist Christian pov and i find his argument to be quite interesting.


--------------------
"Life sucks but in this really beautiful way" - Axl Rose
"Life's a bitch and then you die that's why we get high cuz you never know when you're gonna go." - NAS
"When people don't know what you're about they put you down and shut you out" - Black Sabbath
"An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind" - Gandhi
"Look up at me I am God, look down on me and I am evil, look at me I am you." - Charles Manson.
"Don't question my reality." - Me (as far as I know)

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InvisibleIcelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Male


Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
Re: Slavoj Zizek, ever read any of his books? [Re: SlashOZ]
    #14511707 - 05/25/11 08:17 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

I should?:monkeydance:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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InvisibleSlashOZ
:D
Male


Registered: 10/20/06
Posts: 3,557
Loc: Following the water cycle
Re: Slavoj Zizek, ever read any of his books? [Re: Icelander]
    #14512033 - 05/25/11 09:16 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
I should?:monkeydance:




Whether you agree or disagree with his arguments I still think he makes very thought provoking ones. You would probably really like it from your perspective which is pretty open to at least entertain ideas and/or critique them.


--------------------
"Life sucks but in this really beautiful way" - Axl Rose
"Life's a bitch and then you die that's why we get high cuz you never know when you're gonna go." - NAS
"When people don't know what you're about they put you down and shut you out" - Black Sabbath
"An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind" - Gandhi
"Look up at me I am God, look down on me and I am evil, look at me I am you." - Charles Manson.
"Don't question my reality." - Me (as far as I know)

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InvisibleIcelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Male


Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
Re: Slavoj Zizek, ever read any of his books? [Re: SlashOZ]
    #14512181 - 05/25/11 09:44 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Present his arguments. You've read them.  Let's rumble.:satansmoking:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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InvisibleSlashOZ
:D
Male


Registered: 10/20/06
Posts: 3,557
Loc: Following the water cycle
Re: Slavoj Zizek, ever read any of his books? [Re: Icelander]
    #14512434 - 05/25/11 10:29 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
Present his arguments. You've read them.  Let's rumble.:satansmoking:




Alright, I'll try to present them as faithfully as possible. Keep in mind I just find this book interesting so my ability to argue on the authors behalf might be limited.

Anywho....

In reference to Zen Buddhism used for military purposes by the Imperial Japanese Army in WWII.

"This reasoning is based on the opposition between the reflexive attitude of our ordinary daily lives (in which we cling to life and fear death, strive for egotistic pleasure and profit, hesitate and think, instead of directly acting) and the enlightened stance in which the difference between life and death no longer matters, in which we regain the original selfless unity, and are directly our act."

A pretty damning argument against Buddhist or oneness thought. To reword this argument, in a sense, Buddhist ideas of selflessness allow us to be complacent actors in which we merely watch our actions happen in a state of suspension where we are carrying out acts that we are not truly responsible for.

He goes on to write

"Insofar as subjectivity as such is hysterical, insofar as it emerges through the questioning of the interpolating call of the Other, we have here the perfect descriptions of a perverse desubjectivization: the subject avoids its constitutive splitting by positing itself directly as the instrument of the Other's Will. And what is crucial in this radical version is that is explicitly rejects all the religious rubble usually associated with popular Buddhism, and advocates a return to the original down-to-earth atheist version fo the Buddha himself: as Furakawa Tiago emphasizes, there is no salvation after death, no afterlife, no spirits or divinities to assist us, no reincarnation, just this life which is directly identical to death. Within this attitude, the warrior no longer acts as a person, he is thoroughly desubjectivized--or, as D.T. Suzuki himself put it: "it is really not he but the sword itself that does the killing."

He ends the argument by pointing to communist revolutionary Che Guevara.

"There is only one logical answer; it is not that, in contrast to Japanese military aggression, revolutionary violence "really" aims to establishing a nonviolent harmony, on the contrary, authentic revolutionary liberation is much more directly identified with violence--it is violence as such (the violent gesture of discarding, of establishing a difference, of drawing a line of separation) which liberates. Freedom is not a blissfully neutral state of harmony and balance, but the very violent act which disturbs this balance."

Sorry for the long quotes but it was much easier to posit his argument in this fashion. They were of course pieces of text in between these quotes that I did not feel the need to type up as the ones I chose seemed to cover his argument fairly well from my perspective. Let me know if you need any clarification, etc.


--------------------
"Life sucks but in this really beautiful way" - Axl Rose
"Life's a bitch and then you die that's why we get high cuz you never know when you're gonna go." - NAS
"When people don't know what you're about they put you down and shut you out" - Black Sabbath
"An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind" - Gandhi
"Look up at me I am God, look down on me and I am evil, look at me I am you." - Charles Manson.
"Don't question my reality." - Me (as far as I know)

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InvisibleIcelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Male


Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
Re: Slavoj Zizek, ever read any of his books? [Re: SlashOZ]
    #14513792 - 05/26/11 05:44 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Interesting. This author would  benefit imo from reading Becker's work on death anxiety as a prime motivator for humanity. 

Myself, I tend to lean toward the no god/no afterlife or meaning line of belief. Yet non violence is my preferred mode of operation. Nor am I inclined to control the actions of others who are not interfering with me. 

Now anything can be used for military purposes. Take the Christian Crusades as an example, or the war against homosexuals on the home front.

Everything you wrote here imo directly relates to death anxiety and so the author is missing the point and the cure.

Can you present his case for a Christian mode of living being the cure for war and violence? 

Look if Christian morals were a cure for violence then America would be a very different place than it is.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleSlashOZ
:D
Male


Registered: 10/20/06
Posts: 3,557
Loc: Following the water cycle
Re: Slavoj Zizek, ever read any of his books? [Re: Icelander]
    #14514196 - 05/26/11 08:57 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
Interesting. This author would  benefit imo from reading Becker's work on death anxiety as a prime motivator for humanity. 

Myself, I tend to lean toward the no god/no afterlife or meaning line of belief. Yet non violence is my preferred mode of operation. Nor am I inclined to control the actions of others who are not interfering with me. 

This is Zizek's exact point on why Christianity proper is nonviolent. Christianity recognizes that there is a gap in reality and that there is no oneness to strive toward.

Now anything can be used for military purposes. Take the Christian Crusades as an example, or the war against homosexuals on the home front.

Those people are simply trying to create a oneness and seperate any gaps in reality and bring everyone into a universal harmony. Once again, true Christianity recognizes that reality is not a oneness and that there are unbalances within reality.

Everything you wrote here imo directly relates to death anxiety and so the author is missing the point and the cure.

Zizek, a psychologist, is probably well aware of this.

Can you present his case for a Christian mode of living being the cure for war and violence? 

Turn the other cheek.

Look if Christian morals were a cure for violence then America would be a very different place than it is.

Oh come on, how many christians have you met that actually think about their religion anywhere near an academic or philosophical level?





I would suggest reading the book or some of his works.

Here is an overview of his philosophy http://www.lacan.com/zizekchro1.htm


--------------------
"Life sucks but in this really beautiful way" - Axl Rose
"Life's a bitch and then you die that's why we get high cuz you never know when you're gonna go." - NAS
"When people don't know what you're about they put you down and shut you out" - Black Sabbath
"An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind" - Gandhi
"Look up at me I am God, look down on me and I am evil, look at me I am you." - Charles Manson.
"Don't question my reality." - Me (as far as I know)

Edited by SlashOZ (05/26/11 09:38 AM)

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InvisibleSlashOZ
:D
Male


Registered: 10/20/06
Posts: 3,557
Loc: Following the water cycle
Re: Slavoj Zizek, ever read any of his books? [Re: SlashOZ]
    #14514232 - 05/26/11 09:11 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Here is a link to an argument against both Becker and Zizek from a Pauline train of thought. Not that I agree with it but Zizek's works aften talk about the Death Drive and the psychological aspects of death.

http://sandalstraps.blogspot.com/2011/04/resurrection-is-affirmation-of-death.html

Before you say Zizek should read Becker you should read Zizek.


--------------------
"Life sucks but in this really beautiful way" - Axl Rose
"Life's a bitch and then you die that's why we get high cuz you never know when you're gonna go." - NAS
"When people don't know what you're about they put you down and shut you out" - Black Sabbath
"An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind" - Gandhi
"Look up at me I am God, look down on me and I am evil, look at me I am you." - Charles Manson.
"Don't question my reality." - Me (as far as I know)

Edited by SlashOZ (05/26/11 09:39 AM)

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Offlineandrewss
precariously aggrandized


Registered: 08/17/07
Posts: 8,725
Loc: ohio
Last seen: 2 months, 16 days
Re: Slavoj Zizek, ever read any of his books? [Re: SlashOZ]
    #14514454 - 05/26/11 10:25 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

SlashOZ said:
Quote:

Icelander said:
Present his arguments. You've read them.  Let's rumble.:satansmoking:




Alright, I'll try to present them as faithfully as possible. Keep in mind I just find this book interesting so my ability to argue on the authors behalf might be limited.

Anywho....

In reference to Zen Buddhism used for military purposes by the Imperial Japanese Army in WWII.

"This reasoning is based on the opposition between the reflexive attitude of our ordinary daily lives (in which we cling to life and fear death, strive for egotistic pleasure and profit, hesitate and think, instead of directly acting) and the enlightened stance in which the difference between life and death no longer matters, in which we regain the original selfless unity, and are directly our act."

A pretty damning argument against Buddhist or oneness thought. To reword this argument, in a sense, Buddhist ideas of selflessness allow us to be complacent actors in which we merely watch our actions happen in a state of suspension where we are carrying out acts that we are not truly responsible for.

He goes on to write

"Insofar as subjectivity as such is hysterical, insofar as it emerges through the questioning of the interpolating call of the Other, we have here the perfect descriptions of a perverse desubjectivization: the subject avoids its constitutive splitting by positing itself directly as the instrument of the Other's Will. And what is crucial in this radical version is that is explicitly rejects all the religious rubble usually associated with popular Buddhism, and advocates a return to the original down-to-earth atheist version fo the Buddha himself: as Furakawa Tiago emphasizes, there is no salvation after death, no afterlife, no spirits or divinities to assist us, no reincarnation, just this life which is directly identical to death. Within this attitude, the warrior no longer acts as a person, he is thoroughly desubjectivized--or, as D.T. Suzuki himself put it: "it is really not he but the sword itself that does the killing."

He ends the argument by pointing to communist revolutionary Che Guevara.

"There is only one logical answer; it is not that, in contrast to Japanese military aggression, revolutionary violence "really" aims to establishing a nonviolent harmony, on the contrary, authentic revolutionary liberation is much more directly identified with violence--it is violence as such (the violent gesture of discarding, of establishing a difference, of drawing a line of separation) which liberates. Freedom is not a blissfully neutral state of harmony and balance, but the very violent act which disturbs this balance."

Sorry for the long quotes but it was much easier to posit his argument in this fashion. They were of course pieces of text in between these quotes that I did not feel the need to type up as the ones I chose seemed to cover his argument fairly well from my perspective. Let me know if you need any clarification, etc.





meh soldiers stressed by war do not necessarily need an individually affirmed ideology to feed their unification of dissolving into the whole IMO... its not so much conceptual in action, sure one can plant some seeds that way but they can be rephrased into a myriad of ways... some western soldiers could be like "I no longer hold onto hope for I am surely a dead man" etc etc... or just the brute structure of conscription and very basic human behavior and emotional tendencies... I just dont like this intellectual confounding or something that people like to play into examples like (japanese imperialism) these they like to render for the reader, I guess I just dont think much at all is being said in the end


--------------------
Jesus loves you.

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InvisibleIcelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Male


Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
Re: Slavoj Zizek, ever read any of his books? [Re: SlashOZ]
    #14514462 - 05/26/11 10:27 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

SlashOZ said:
Quote:

Icelander said:
Interesting. This author would  benefit imo from reading Becker's work on death anxiety as a prime motivator for humanity. 

Myself, I tend to lean toward the no god/no afterlife or meaning line of belief. Yet non violence is my preferred mode of operation. Nor am I inclined to control the actions of others who are not interfering with me. 

This is Zizek's exact point on why Christianity proper is nonviolent. Christianity recognizes that there is a gap in reality and that there is no oneness to strive toward.

Now anything can be used for military purposes. Take the Christian Crusades as an example, or the war against homosexuals on the home front.

Those people are simply trying to create a oneness and seperate any gaps in reality and bring everyone into a universal harmony. Once again, true Christianity recognizes that reality is not a oneness and that there are unbalances within reality.

Everything you wrote here imo directly relates to death anxiety and so the author is missing the point and the cure.

Zizek, a psychologist, is probably well aware of this.

Can you present his case for a Christian mode of living being the cure for war and violence? 

Turn the other cheek.

Look if Christian morals were a cure for violence then America would be a very different place than it is.

Oh come on, how many christians have you met that actually think about their religion anywhere near an academic or philosophical level?





I would suggest reading the book or some of his works.

Here is an overview of his philosophy http://www.lacan.com/zizekchro1.htm





Why the need for Christianity? The superstitious belief in a god and the need to believe all the shit in the bible will not achieve these mentioned ends.



You are talking about philosophy, and not religion. Why the need for a type of religious belief?    And I imagine most Zen Buddhists are fairly non violent from the looks of it.

I also think that very few psychologists really understand the basic implications of death anxiety.  Freud didn't.


Christianity recognizes that there is a gap in reality and that there is no oneness to strive toward.


I'm not so sure about this. 
The Christian God is the singularity that all strive toward.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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OfflineNetDiver
Wandering Mindfuck


Registered: 08/24/09
Posts: 6,024
Loc: Everywhere and Nowhere
Last seen: 1 year, 7 months
Re: Slavoj Zizek, ever read any of his books? [Re: Icelander]
    #14514558 - 05/26/11 10:48 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Zizek is the bomb. He refers to himself as a "Christian atheist." A lot of the things he says are largely to shock people into examining their own beliefs. I wouldn't take it quite so literally.

His misunderstanding of Buddhism is pretty :facepalm: though.


--------------------

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InvisibleIcelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Male


Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
Re: Slavoj Zizek, ever read any of his books? [Re: NetDiver]
    #14514653 - 05/26/11 11:07 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

"Christian atheist."

this is also :facepalm:

I think he has splinters in the windmills of his mind but even nut jobs can have some good ideas. :laugh:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineNetDiver
Wandering Mindfuck


Registered: 08/24/09
Posts: 6,024
Loc: Everywhere and Nowhere
Last seen: 1 year, 7 months
Re: Slavoj Zizek, ever read any of his books? [Re: NetDiver]
    #14514717 - 05/26/11 11:19 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Samurai Drifter said:
A lot of the things he says are largely to shock people into examining their own beliefs. I wouldn't take it quite so literally.




--------------------

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InvisibleIcelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Male


Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
Re: Slavoj Zizek, ever read any of his books? [Re: NetDiver]
    #14514845 - 05/26/11 11:47 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Sounds like Icelander.:satansmoking:

Please buy my book.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleSlashOZ
:D
Male


Registered: 10/20/06
Posts: 3,557
Loc: Following the water cycle
Re: Slavoj Zizek, ever read any of his books? [Re: Icelander]
    #14515407 - 05/26/11 01:42 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
Quote:

SlashOZ said:
Quote:

Icelander said:
Interesting. This author would  benefit imo from reading Becker's work on death anxiety as a prime motivator for humanity. 

Myself, I tend to lean toward the no god/no afterlife or meaning line of belief. Yet non violence is my preferred mode of operation. Nor am I inclined to control the actions of others who are not interfering with me. 

This is Zizek's exact point on why Christianity proper is nonviolent. Christianity recognizes that there is a gap in reality and that there is no oneness to strive toward.

Now anything can be used for military purposes. Take the Christian Crusades as an example, or the war against homosexuals on the home front.

Those people are simply trying to create a oneness and seperate any gaps in reality and bring everyone into a universal harmony. Once again, true Christianity recognizes that reality is not a oneness and that there are unbalances within reality.

Everything you wrote here imo directly relates to death anxiety and so the author is missing the point and the cure.

Zizek, a psychologist, is probably well aware of this.

Can you present his case for a Christian mode of living being the cure for war and violence? 

Turn the other cheek.

Look if Christian morals were a cure for violence then America would be a very different place than it is.

Oh come on, how many christians have you met that actually think about their religion anywhere near an academic or philosophical level?





I would suggest reading the book or some of his works.

Here is an overview of his philosophy http://www.lacan.com/zizekchro1.htm





Why the need for Christianity? The superstitious belief in a god and the need to believe all the shit in the bible will not achieve these mentioned ends.



You are talking about philosophy, and not religion. Why the need for a type of religious belief?    And I imagine most Zen Buddhists are fairly non violent from the looks of it.

I also think that very few psychologists really understand the basic implications of death anxiety.  Freud didn't.


Christianity recognizes that there is a gap in reality and that there is no oneness to strive toward.


I'm not so sure about this. 
The Christian God is the singularity that all strive toward.






I don't see a need for any superstitious beliefs.

Christianity should be read more philosophic than theist. I would suggest reading the bible in a completely Atheist way. So don't take it literally and accept that it has its flaws and good parts like any philosophic work.

As far as the bold part I believe you are right. I didn't present that argument correctly as it obviously makes little sense. I was meaning to say that in Christianity there is no want to reach a state of selflessness whereas Buddhist and particularly Zen Buddhists are attempting to reach that state through acts of meditation etc.

That is not to say that the Zen Buddhist is wrong.

For me the appeal of Christianity over Buddhism is that it appears to want you to engage in life instead of attempting to disengage.



--------------------
"Life sucks but in this really beautiful way" - Axl Rose
"Life's a bitch and then you die that's why we get high cuz you never know when you're gonna go." - NAS
"When people don't know what you're about they put you down and shut you out" - Black Sabbath
"An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind" - Gandhi
"Look up at me I am God, look down on me and I am evil, look at me I am you." - Charles Manson.
"Don't question my reality." - Me (as far as I know)

Edited by SlashOZ (05/26/11 01:55 PM)

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InvisibleIcelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Male


Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
Re: Slavoj Zizek, ever read any of his books? [Re: SlashOZ]
    #14515478 - 05/26/11 01:55 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Well to each his own but I prefer my psychology neat without all the dangerous religious mixers.

Course I have enjoyed a few bloody Mary's in my time. :wink:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
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Shop: PhytoExtractum Buy Bali Kratom Powder   Original Sensible Seeds Autoflowering Cannabis Seeds   Myyco.com Isolated Cubensis Liquid Culture For Sale   Unfolding Nature Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order   Kraken Kratom Red Vein Kratom


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