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LunarEclipse
Enlil's Official Story


Registered: 10/31/04
Posts: 21,407
Loc: Building 7
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Re: anyone move past death anxiety? [Re: Icelander]
#14523647 - 05/27/11 09:43 PM (12 years, 8 months ago) |
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Icelander said:
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LunarEclipse said:
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Icelander said: Personal identity is more a matter of societal convention than actual biological fact, because all life is connected and related.
And what about the rest of the animal kingdom?
I know you are but what am I?
That's a really good question.
I know I am but what are you?
-------------------- Anxiety is what you make it.
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4896744
Small Town Girl


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Re: anyone move past death anxiety? [Re: LunarEclipse]
#14523683 - 05/27/11 09:50 PM (12 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
LunarEclipse said:
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Icelander said:
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LunarEclipse said:
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Icelander said: Personal identity is more a matter of societal convention than actual biological fact, because all life is connected and related.
And what about the rest of the animal kingdom?
I know you are but what am I?
That's a really good question.
I know I am but what are you?
Have your posts always contained such drivel?
-------------------- Live your Life!
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery



Registered: 03/15/05
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Re: anyone move past death anxiety? [Re: LunarEclipse]
#14523684 - 05/27/11 09:51 PM (12 years, 8 months ago) |
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I am Icelander.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Cups
technically "here"


Registered: 12/24/09
Posts: 1,925
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Re: anyone move past death anxiety? [Re: Icelander]
#14523795 - 05/27/11 10:12 PM (12 years, 8 months ago) |
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MarkostheGnostic said: Sometimes I am that detached Witness, most of the time I'm not. On a few occasions the perspective has risen higher to one in which thought, sense, memory, personal identity, and time has been transcended. I have placed THAT experience at the center of my values, and allowed my life to crystallize around that experience.
At best, death heralds the dawning of the Clear Light in fearless ecstasy and Liberation from the confines of my fearful, egoic mind.
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Icelander said: I care AND I don't care simultaneously. This is my daily experience: caring and not-caring,
I think about this a lot lately.
Another Shroomery member...who has us all beat in terms of trips and meditation experience...once told me that ego-loss is a kind of a trap. (I'm paraphrasing heavily here)
Ego loss is an important thing as it gives someone a new and necessary perspective...but in his experience the true value of the work is not in losing the ego completely...but in making the ego your slave.
I've spent a lot of time mulling that over. It follows IMO that if you mess with a projector long enough you can adjust the picture...but IME even the smallest change comes with such life shattering ripples that to truly pull this off is a hell of a thing.
I have tried an active approach with some success. For example tonight I saw one of those animal abuse things on TV and after seeing several fucked up dogs and cats in cages I started to empathize wit them. I let this feeling grow for a few then shut it down..following the thoughts and seeing how they ultimately trace back to me feeling sorry for myself. It takes practice but it's possible and over time it seems to "take".
But IMO I have also experienced true "permanent" change in how I relate the the world. However, all of these came from a much deeper level than consciously controlling a thought process. That's some behind the scenes shit that I don't truly understand yet.
-------------------- What's up everybody?!
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MarkostheGnostic
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Re: anyone move past death anxiety? [Re: Cups]
#14524178 - 05/27/11 11:31 PM (12 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
Cups said:
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MarkostheGnostic said: Sometimes I am that detached Witness, most of the time I'm not. On a few occasions the perspective has risen higher to one in which thought, sense, memory, personal identity, and time has been transcended. I have placed THAT experience at the center of my values, and allowed my life to crystallize around that experience.
But IMO I have also experienced true "permanent" change in how I relate the the world. However, all of these came from a much deeper level than consciously controlling a thought process. That's some behind the scenes shit that I don't truly understand yet.
"That which is not seen by the eye, but by which the eye is able to see: know that alone to be the Brahman..." - Kena Upanishad
-------------------- γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself
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Mufungo
Coming at ya


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Re: anyone move past death anxiety? [Re: Kickle]
#14528546 - 05/28/11 10:34 PM (12 years, 8 months ago) |
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Kickle said: My story of what happens after death is that there is nothing, and that seems really nice to me. So death doesn't worry me.
What motivated you to make a story in the first place?
Thinking about the future event motivated that story. Thinking about any event or activity in the future creates a space in the mind to fill with some type of cognition with respect to an imagined outcome. With a broad range of potential options to imagine and choose from, I chose that one. Just like I chose to imagine a nice future story when I get up in front of crowds to talk or when I drive my car or fly in a plane, because to think of undesirable outcomes creates anxiety/fear. So my point still stands, no "death anxiety" but rather instead motivated by avoiding undesirable events which I have some sense of.
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery



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Re: anyone move past death anxiety? [Re: Mufungo]
#14529394 - 05/29/11 03:47 AM (12 years, 8 months ago) |
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What you said makes no sense to me. If death is not to be feared then there is nothing to create anxiety. I think you would do well to explore Ernest Becker's book on the subject as I believe you are not aware of how death anxiety works, especially on the unconscious level.
But what I have found is that the folk who have most of their death anxiety on unconscious levels have the most fear of finding out that they have death anxiety and do protest the most that it does not exist. (my two cents)
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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xFrockx


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Re: anyone move past death anxiety? [Re: Icelander]
#14529432 - 05/29/11 04:41 AM (12 years, 8 months ago) |
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Is there a difference between denying death anxiety exists and not really knowing what there is to be feared? For me, its pretty apparent that some people can have something like death anxiety, but only if they believe that death is something to fear.
If we take the account of the death of Socrates historically at all, we see that he thought of death as a cure to the illness that was life. Did he have death anxiety? I don't know.
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Mufungo
Coming at ya


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Re: anyone move past death anxiety? [Re: Icelander]
#14529453 - 05/29/11 04:58 AM (12 years, 8 months ago) |
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Although I have never read Becker, I have researched and been involved in research on terror management theory, so I think I have a grasp of the concepts around death anxiety. Nonetheless, what the research fails to emphasise and explain is that the "death anxiety" response does not show up all of the time in research. This might be explained by self-esteem buffer, but I think that's vague and is better explained by looking at the specific cognition associated with death and mortality. That's why I explained it by looking at the specific somatic-cognitive associations someone has with the world and in particular with how they imagine specific future events such as death or the next time they drive a car, or tomorrow, etc. The theory I put forth is in alignment with cognitive theory of anxiety. Have ya come across the A->B->C model before?
To help it make sense to you, let me simplify... The basic premise: Do you agree that people have thoughts, and some of those thoughts influence an emotional response such as happiness, anger, fear, anxiety, etc?
If you don't disagree with that then I'll move on to the next premise: If the person has anxiety provoking thoughts around a future event, such as "when X future event happens, it will feel terrible/scary/painful/bad/etc", then they will feel anxiety in relation to thinking of X future event. If the person does not have anxiety provoking thoughts in relation to X future event, then the person will not be feeling anxiety.
So therefore, if someone does not have anxiety provoking thoughts associated with thoughts of death (future event) then they won't feel anxious by death.
Then I hear, "what about when there is a life or death situation in which someone struggles for their life?" That response of struggling to live is actually a struggle to escape a present undesirable event because the human organism has awareness of the body being harmed in some way. It's a natural response for the body to try and protect itself, not because of a fear of death but because of a response to protect the physical integrity of the organism, which if damaged, is an undesirable consequence best avoided. If that natural awareness of harm to the body isn't activated when the person is being harmed/killed, then there will be no struggle to escape, i.e. killing with carbon monoxide.
"But what about when people almost kill themselves in attempt to save someone else, isn't that driven by their anxiety around death?" No, it's driven by the thoughts around an undesirable event in the form of someone else being harmed in some way. Often when interviewed and asked "Weren't you worried about being killed yourself?" most of the time people say that it hadn't occurred to them and they just acted without thinking. This is because they saw an undesirable event in the process and acted to make it more desirable... although sometimes they fail.
It's rather easy to comprehend IMO and is a better explanation for why people feel anxiety let alone why they sometimes feel anxiety around death.
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Mufungo
Coming at ya


Registered: 04/03/07
Posts: 2,743
Loc: Knowhere
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Re: anyone move past death anxiety? [Re: Mufungo]
#14529502 - 05/29/11 05:43 AM (12 years, 8 months ago) |
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Further to the what I said about future events and how the mind will imagine them...
Tomorrow is going to happen, is it not? So, if I asked you to imagine walking around inside your home tomorrow, going from room to room, opening/closing doors and cupboards, sitting on the toilet as you drop a stinker, maybe patting/feeding the animals, feeling the air as you're going for a walk outside... do you at least get a vague sense of what this would be like to do these things tomorrow?
If you actually imagined that scenario, you have probably automatically filled in details I couldn't possibly provide... such as the layout of your house, perhaps the colours of doors and where handles are on the door, you might have imagined your toilet and what it's like to sit on it, the type of animals you might have and the food they eat, and you might have imagined what it is like outside your house. When given the opportunity, the mind fills in the details.
For me, if I think about the future event, such as tomorrow, my mind fills in details automatically, sometimes more or less specifically detailed, but with details nonetheless. The same goes with death. If I think about the event of death, my imagination tries to fill in the blanks. I could associate anything with death and imagine it. I could imagine going to hell and burning, being in pain, etc. which isn't desirable and thus anxiety/fear provoking. Or I could imagine something nicer. Either way of imagining, when I am thinking about death, there isn't an absence of thought, my mind fills in the blank with some imagined experience... just like if I imagine walking on the moon (something else I haven't done), my mind fills in the blank with details of what I imagine walking on the moon might be like (which can only really be based on my previous experiences here on earth).
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detest86
Psychonaut

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Re: anyone move past death anxiety? [Re: Mufungo]
#14529579 - 05/29/11 06:33 AM (12 years, 8 months ago) |
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you guys should really watch "The Atheism Tapes"
Some really smart people are talking about death.
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery



Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
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Re: anyone move past death anxiety? [Re: xFrockx]
#14529581 - 05/29/11 06:34 AM (12 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
xFrockx said: Is there a difference between denying death anxiety exists and not really knowing what there is to be feared? For me, its pretty apparent that some people can have something like death anxiety, but only if they believe that death is something to fear.
If we take the account of the death of Socrates historically at all, we see that he thought of death as a cure to the illness that was life. Did he have death anxiety? I don't know.
We have debated this for years and you remain stuck on square one. I have suggested to you many times, since you seem to be interested and willing to debate the subject a lot, that you read Ernest Becker's book Denial of death that can be found at any public library or likely on line.
If you read it and then are not convinced I'll be willing to continue the debate with you.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
Edited by Icelander (05/29/11 06:45 AM)
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery



Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
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Re: anyone move past death anxiety? [Re: Mufungo]
#14529595 - 05/29/11 06:43 AM (12 years, 8 months ago) |
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So therefore, if someone does not have anxiety provoking thoughts associated with thoughts of death (future event) then they won't feel anxious by death.
Here is your sticking point on this subject and you have nailed it square.
You are correct. We use shields to buffer our anxiety about impermanence. The better the shield the less the anxiety. Consciously there is very little manifestation of fear. Here's the point. No buffers are needed if there is no core fear of death. So while consciously you my not feel very anxious, remove your shields/buffers in some direct way and the anxiety will come rushing into full consciousness. Like the guy who claims no fear of death until the doctor breaks his cocoon by telling him he has advanced cancer and then he frantically tries every quack cure on the market along with the morbid treatments of modern medicine. He was fine as long as he did not have to directly think about dying in the present.
The goal of human life then is to have these shields in place and as Becker says the quality of the shield determines the quality of the life.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Cups
technically "here"


Registered: 12/24/09
Posts: 1,925
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Re: anyone move past death anxiety? [Re: Icelander]
#14529666 - 05/29/11 07:19 AM (12 years, 8 months ago) |
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^^^
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The goal of human life then is to have these shields in place and as Becker says the quality of the shield determines the quality of the life.
IOW The better you hide the truth from your"self" the better you do. Absurd isn't it?
-------------------- What's up everybody?!
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery



Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
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Re: anyone move past death anxiety? [Re: Cups]
#14529702 - 05/29/11 07:31 AM (12 years, 8 months ago) |
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It's the most bizarre and strange part of human life I have ever discovered. No mega dose trip has been more fundamentally profound and life altering for me or come at a higher price.
But to quote that Zen saying. "Better not to start. Once started, better to finish".
One time in my life about 6 years ago I told the Universe, in a moment of supreme self confidence to "bring it on". That was the beginning of the end for my old way of living and the beginning of my breakdown. I have rued that day a million times.
Like the person who feels so comfortable in the culture that humans have built, they know exactly what the world is. Then in a moment of bravado take a very high dose of psychedelics and find that the world they knew is only a construct of their mind and in effect we are swimming in a stew of unimaginable and unknowable chaos. Then the psychotic break and Humpty Dumpty will have to see if he can, in some fashion, put something back together again.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Cups
technically "here"


Registered: 12/24/09
Posts: 1,925
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Re: anyone move past death anxiety? [Re: Icelander]
#14529748 - 05/29/11 07:52 AM (12 years, 8 months ago) |
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Icelander said: One time in my life about 6 years ago I told the Universe, in a moment of supreme self confidence to "bring it on". That was the beginning of the end for my old way of living and the beginning of my breakdown. I have rued that day a million times.
Boy oh boy. That right up there with "How much worse can this possibly get?" 
Quote:
Icelander said:Like the person who feels so comfortable in the culture that humans have built, they know exactly what the world is. Then in a moment of bravado take a very high dose of psychedelics and find that the world they knew is only a construct of their mind and in effect we are swimming in a stew of unimaginable and unknowable chaos. Then the psychotic break and Humpty Dumpty will have to see if he can, in some fashion, put something back together again.
Hey you have to get permission before you write my biography dude. lol It wasn't my 19g trip that did it though...it just set the stage. Left all the doors open and then 2 weeks later 4gs of reality police crashed the party.
-------------------- What's up everybody?!
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xFrockx


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Re: anyone move past death anxiety? [Re: Icelander]
#14529757 - 05/29/11 07:58 AM (12 years, 8 months ago) |
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"We have debated this for years and you remain stuck on square one. I have suggested to you many times, since you seem to be interested and willing to debate the subject a lot, that you read Ernest Becker's book Denial of death that can be found at any public library or likely on line.
If you read it and then are not convinced I'll be willing to continue the debate with you. "
I've already read it (I actually bought it). And I don't read half-assed, I took my time on it and really paid attention to it. I'm not stuck on square one, I considered many of his ideas, even lived with them a few days, but ultimately I find the emotional output of believing in his ideas to be very focusing and to the point when it comes to holding subjective perceptions about reality but without any objective reality to them at all. Our anxiety is entirely concluded by our subjective ideas about where, why, how, who we are.
If my brain was a CD player, Becker was a good album, one I would keep in my collection to listen to for fun, but not one I would seal the lid shut on.
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Cups
technically "here"


Registered: 12/24/09
Posts: 1,925
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Re: anyone move past death anxiety? [Re: xFrockx]
#14529772 - 05/29/11 08:07 AM (12 years, 8 months ago) |
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Here you go Icelander. http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/14227729/
I remember this thread. Thought it was beyond funny he posted it right after you left (timing wise)
-------------------- What's up everybody?!
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery



Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
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Re: anyone move past death anxiety? [Re: xFrockx]
#14529810 - 05/29/11 08:28 AM (12 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
xFrockx said: Is there a difference between denying death anxiety exists and not really knowing what there is to be feared? For me, its pretty apparent that some people can have something like death anxiety, but only if they believe that death is something to fear.
If we take the account of the death of Socrates historically at all, we see that he thought of death as a cure to the illness that was life. Did he have death anxiety? I don't know.
OK since you read the book.
If one does not know what is to be feared then life has no limits for them imo. They would be at the top of the life game an they would do whatever they wanted to do without any reservations ever. Do you know anyone like that?
I also agree with Socrates that death is the cure of the illness called life. But neither he nor I was willing to commit to the cure until forced. So I'm guessing he had it the same as the rest of us.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery



Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
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Re: anyone move past death anxiety? [Re: Cups]
#14529822 - 05/29/11 08:36 AM (12 years, 8 months ago) |
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Cups said: Here you go Icelander. http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/14227729/
I remember this thread. Thought it was beyond funny he posted it right after you left (timing wise)
If we really know nothing, what is there to fear?
Again it's the fear of the unknown that is the cause of death anxiety at least in part. NO ONE KNOWS WHAT DEATH IS. We fear the disolution of the self or personality which only knows this moment of eternal life so to speak. It lives forever in the eternal now. It cannot imagine death or the end of it self and so fears that unknown.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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