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OfflineNetDiver
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Re: anyone move past death anxiety? [Re: Poid]
    #14520623 - 05/27/11 12:48 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Article: http://www.naturalism.org/death.htm

I define "afterlife" as a non-physical realm that "you" (as you currently think of yourself) go to following your death. A place where people who have died retain their appearance, memories, and personality (i.e. "there's grandma who died 10 years ago.")

I don't believe in anything like that, or anything non-physical. In fact, my view is specifically based upon the non-existence of souls or essences, and the fact that physically, we're all more the same than different.

Given that most of us have similar physical hardware, what is it that separates us from each other, makes us "different" people? I would say personality and memory are the two main factors in creating personal identity. Your memory and your personality are unique to your brain.

Lots of stuff that goes on in your brain, though, isn't unique to you. The same sorts of chemical reactions that are behind the senses of sight, taste, touch, etc. are happening in billions of other people. So, while elements of you that are unique to your brain, such as your personality and memories, might be erased, generic sensory experience, such as sight, taste, touch, the building of new memories, etc -- continues.

Unless you believe that there's something special (like a soul) about you, besides your personality and memory, that divides you from other people, then you must believe that wherever the physical conditions for those senses exist, there is sensory experience. Whether or not it's "you" sensing is, again, a fuzzy subject.


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: anyone move past death anxiety? [Re: NetDiver]
    #14520649 - 05/27/11 12:53 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Samurai Drifter said:
And I'm saying nothing can't happen. See any incorrect underlying assumptions based on the inadequacy of language here?





You knew exactly what I meant and that is sufficient. :ass:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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OfflineNetDiver
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Re: anyone move past death anxiety? [Re: Icelander]
    #14520705 - 05/27/11 01:01 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

No, I really didn't. :confused:

I understand that you don't believe in an afterlife, but I don't either -- and that's a far cry from nothing happening.


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OfflinexFrockx
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Re: anyone move past death anxiety? [Re: NetDiver]
    #14520714 - 05/27/11 01:03 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

I think its much more likely that our only chance of an afterlife is if we have this exact same life again, if the universe is an endlessly repeating cycle.


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InvisiblePoid
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Re: anyone move past death anxiety? [Re: NetDiver]
    #14520721 - 05/27/11 01:05 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Samurai Drifter said:
Article: http://www.naturalism.org/death.htm

I define "afterlife" as a non-physical realm that "you" (as you currently think of yourself) go to following your death. A place where people who have died retain their appearance, memories, and personality (i.e. "there's grandma who died 10 years ago.")

I don't believe in anything like that, or anything non-physical. In fact, my view is specifically based upon the non-existence of souls or essences, and the fact that physically, we're all more the same than different.


You believe we continue to experience after death..that is the same thing as an afterlife.

afterlife: an existence after death.


Quote:

Samurai Drifter said:
Given that most of us have similar physical hardware, what is it that separates us from each other, makes us "different" people? I would say personality and memory are the two main factors in creating personal identity. Your memory and your personality are unique to your brain.

Lots of stuff that goes on in your brain, though, isn't unique to you. The same sorts of chemical reactions that are behind the senses of sight, taste, touch, etc. are happening in billions of other people. So, while elements of you that are unique to your brain, such as your personality and memories, might be erased, generic sensory experience, such as sight, taste, touch, the building of new memories, etc -- continues.


Can you quote the relevant sections in the link you posted that explain and provide evidence for this?


Quote:

Samurai Drifter said:
Unless you believe that there's something special (like a soul) about you, besides your personality and memory, that divides you from other people...


Lots of things divide me from other people..physical space, for one. Size, weight, and color are other properties that divide me from other people.


Quote:

Samurai Drifter said:
...then you must believe that wherever the physical conditions for those senses exist, there is sensory experience. Whether or not it's "you" sensing is, again, a fuzzy subject.


You're saying that whether or not I'm sensing things through my own eyes is a fuzzy subject? How exactly is that fuzzy?


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: anyone move past death anxiety? [Re: NetDiver]
    #14520765 - 05/27/11 01:13 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Samurai Drifter said:
No, I really didn't. :confused:

I understand that you don't believe in an afterlife, but I don't either -- and that's a far cry from nothing happening.





You really didn't understand that by saying that I meant there is no personality to experience anything after death?

I'll have to be more careful, type very very slowly, and draw pictures in the future.:braindamage:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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OfflineNetDiver
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Re: anyone move past death anxiety? [Re: Icelander]
    #14520778 - 05/27/11 01:15 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

You said "nothing happens."

That is a blatantly obvious contradiction. So no, I didn't understand what you meant. And what's up with the insulting image? Do you really have to resort to name calling like a small child? I was trying to have a civil discussion. :facepalm:


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: anyone move past death anxiety? [Re: NetDiver]
    #14520800 - 05/27/11 01:18 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

And I'm saying I was perfectly clear in common communication unless you're from Uranus.  Which maybe you are. :ass:

What name calling?  I can now see where our communication problems arise.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


Edited by Icelander (05/27/11 01:20 PM)


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InvisiblePoid
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Re: anyone move past death anxiety? [Re: Icelander]
    #14520816 - 05/27/11 01:21 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

:lol:, I thought it was pretty clear. :thumbup:


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: anyone move past death anxiety? [Re: Poid]
    #14520828 - 05/27/11 01:23 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

So would anyone I've ever talked to on the street.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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OfflineNetDiver
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Re: anyone move past death anxiety? [Re: Poid]
    #14520831 - 05/27/11 01:24 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Poid said:
You believe we continue to experience after death..that is the same thing as an afterlife.

afterlife: an existence after death.



Again, I don't know that's accurate. I didn't say that "we" continue to experience after death, I said, very clearly, non-personalized experience. My model does not provide for the survival of personality or memory, only senses.

Quote:

Can you quote the relevant sections in the link you posted that explain and provide evidence for this?



Sorry, I'm not going to read the article for you. :lol: The whole thing is relevant and shouldn't take you more than a few minutes to read.


Quote:


Lots of things divide me from other people..physical space, for one. Size, weight, and color are other properties that divide me from other people.



All those things require sensory experience to be measured in the first place.


Quote:


You're saying that whether or not I'm sensing things through my own eyes is a fuzzy subject? How exactly is that fuzzy?



What's fuzzy is whether or not the experience that continues after your death can be called "you."

Here's an example of what I mean. Lots of the things that make you who you are (the feelings/needs that motivate your actions, the language you use, etc.) were determined genetically before your birth. Do you believe that your genetic ancestors had sensory experiences, and that some of their physical make-up survives in you? I'm sure you probably do. But would you say that you are them? It depends entirely on how you choose to arbitrarily define personal identity.

You might say "I'm obviously not them, I have a different body." But a lot of that is cultural. Many traditions teach people to view ancestors as part of themselves -- to them, the distinction is not so obvious. And we're all connected in the same physical system that gives rise to perception -- all of life is, in fact.

What does it mean? I'm not entirely sure. But I do know it's not quite as obvious and cut-and-dried as you guys seem to think.


--------------------


Edited by NetDiver (05/27/11 01:29 PM)


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: anyone move past death anxiety? [Re: NetDiver]
    #14520967 - 05/27/11 01:43 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Samurai Drifter said:
Quote:

Icelander said:
The physical body dies, with it goes the personality.  What happens after death is the unknown.  Best guess is that nothing happens.

Heaven is a place where nothing ever happens -David Byrne



Nothing isn't something that happens. :shrug:





I was just responding to your statement above about my statement and nothing else.

I rarely  indulge in speculation here, in this forum, on things that cannot be known due to the fact that hard evidence is unavailable.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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InvisiblePoid
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Re: anyone move past death anxiety? [Re: NetDiver]
    #14521014 - 05/27/11 01:49 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Samurai Drifter said:
Quote:

Poid said:
You believe we continue to experience after death..that is the same thing as an afterlife.

afterlife: an existence after death.



Again, I don't know that's accurate. I didn't say that "we" continue to experience after death, I said, very clearly, non-personalized experience. My model does not provide for the survival of personality or memory, only senses.


Neither the personality or memory necessarily need to survive in order for it to be considered an afterlife.


Quote:

Samurai Drifter said:
Quote:

Can you quote the relevant sections in the link you posted that explain and provide evidence for this?



Sorry, I'm not going to read the article for you. :lol: The whole thing is relevant and shouldn't take you more than a few minutes to read.


The whole article is based on this:

Here, again, is the view at issue: When we die, what's next is nothing; death is an abyss, a black hole, the end of experience; it is eternal nothingness, the permanent extinction of being. And here, in a nutshell, is the error contained in the view: It is to reify nothingness--make it a positive condition or quality (e.g., of "blackness")--and then to place the individual in it after death, so that we somehow fall into nothingness, to remain there eternally.

I don't think this is what Icelander means when he says that nothing happens after death..he's not implying that nothingness is a positive condition/quality, that an individual is placed in it after death, or that we somehow fall into nothingness, to remain there eternally.


There is absolutely no evidence in that entire article, it's pure conjecture. Sure, it's not a terribly long article, but it's not extremely short, either, which is why I want you to quote relevant sections that contain actual evidence..to think that the entire article contains actual evidence would be completely laughable. :lol:


Quote:

Samurai Drifter said:
Quote:

You're saying that whether or not I'm sensing things through my own eyes is a fuzzy subject? How exactly is that fuzzy?



What's fuzzy is whether or not the experience that continues after your death can be called "you."


:lol:, you're implying that there even is an experience that continues after death, as if the article you posted somehow proves this.


Quote:

Samurai Drifter said:
Here's an example of what I mean. Lots of the things that make you who you are (the feelings/needs that motivate your actions, the language you use, etc.) were determined genetically before your birth. Do you believe that your genetic ancestors had sensory experiences, and that some of their physical make-up survives in you? I'm sure you probably do. But would you say that you are them? It depends entirely on how you choose to arbitrarily define personal identity.

You might say "I'm obviously not them, I have a different body." But a lot of that is cultural. Many traditions teach people to view ancestors as part of themselves -- to them, the distinction is not so obvious. And we're all connected in the same physical system that gives rise to perception -- all of life is, in fact.


That distinction is not merely cultural..it is an actual distinction, my body is an entirely different system than the body of some random ancestor.

Who cares if traditions teach people to view their ancestors as part of themselves, what does this prove? Some traditions teach people that the world is flat, traditions don't prove shit. :holyshit:


Quote:

Samurai Drifter said:
What does it mean? I'm not entirely sure. But I do know it's not quite as obvious and cut-and-dried as you guys seem to think.


Just because everything is connected doesn't at all mean that experience continues after death..post some hard evidence which is in support of this theory, then get back to me.


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.


Edited by Poid (05/27/11 02:33 PM)


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OfflineNetDiver
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Re: anyone move past death anxiety? [Re: NetDiver]
    #14521121 - 05/27/11 02:05 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

It's an actual distinction to you. The division of personal identity is nowhere near as cut-and-dried as whether or not the world is flat. A body has trillions of different cells, all of which are categorized as belonging to the same person. Societies have millions of people, all of whom draw from the same system (history, genetics, etc). Personal identity is more a matter of societal convention than actual biological fact, because all life is connected and related.

If physical space, point of view, etc. absolutely divide people from each other, then wouldn't you be absolutely divided from your past self? I can take a plane trip from here to Africa and still retain the sense of being the same person, despite the fact that I'm in a totally different spatial location, at a totally different time, having a totally different experience.

The person I define myself as now exists in relation to a history that occurred before anyone alive today was born.


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InvisiblePoid
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Re: anyone move past death anxiety? [Re: NetDiver]
    #14521179 - 05/27/11 02:13 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Samurai Drifter said:
It's an actual distinction to you.


Yeah, I recognize the actual distinction, what's your point? :confused:


Quote:

Samurai Drifter said:
The division of personal identity is nowhere near as cut-and-dried as whether or not the world is flat. A body has trillions of different cells, all of which are categorized as belonging to the same person. Societies have millions of people, all of whom draw from the same system (history, genetics, etc).


I don't see your point..you've defined a person as a body with trillions of different cells, how is that not cut-and-dried? A body is a system, and a person's personal identity is assigned to that system.

Not sure how society's millions of people is relevant..each of those people are individual people, what is so hard? :confused2:


Quote:

Samurai Drifter said:
If physical space, point of view, etc. absolutely divide people from each other, then wouldn't you be absolutely divided from your past self?


Not exactly..I would still be the same system (my body), that a system evolves over time does not mean that it is absolutely divided from its past self.


Quote:

Samurai Drifter said:
The person I define myself as now exists in relation to a history that occurred before anyone alive today was born.


So? What does that have to do with the price of tea? :what:


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: anyone move past death anxiety? [Re: NetDiver]
    #14521293 - 05/27/11 02:34 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Personal identity is more a matter of societal convention than actual biological fact, because all life is connected and related.

And what about the rest of the animal kingdom?


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: anyone move past death anxiety? [Re: skatealex2]
    #14523567 - 05/27/11 09:23 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

When I was signing in to work today on the sign-in sheet, a co-worker, 5 years my junior, said, "I used to be down here, now I'm up here," pointing to the bottom and to a point about 2/3 of the way up the sheet. He then put his hand at the top of the sheet and said, "I think of death as being up here, because I'm an old fart, and death scares the hell out of me."
I had a death lately - my Lady's mum - so the images and smell of death is still with me. I said to my co-worker, "Think of death as slipping into a hot bath," (I was thinking of the line in Sir Edwin Arnold's poem, The Light of Asia: "The dewdrop slips into the Shining Sea"). He said, "What kind of bath do YOU take?!" Very concrete response to my borrowed metaphorical response. I still spend my life working to rise to the perspective of the Transcendental Ego - that "Witness" that Ram Dass relates in the preface of BE HERE NOW during a potent Psilocybin experience.

Sometimes I am that detached Witness, most of the time I'm not. On a few occasions the perspective has risen higher to one in which thought, sense, memory, personal identity, and time has been transcended. I have placed THAT experience at the center of my values, and allowed my life to crystallize around that experience. My everyday perspective strives for the plateau of the detached Witness, while allowing myself to play at being attached to the kids I work with. It's not fake, it's just provisional. I care AND I don't care simultaneously. This is my daily experience: caring and not-caring, thesis and antisynthesis. The result is synthesis - the Hegelian dialectic. I'm learning to apply this synthesis to the life-death dialectic as well. If I can live long enough, the synthesis should form naturally. Octogenarians, in the main, lose fear of death. My 103 year old great uncle wasn't afraid of death. He died at 106. I imagine that he couldn't care less at that point. At the worst, death is like Delta wave sleep. At best, death heralds the dawning of the Clear Light in fearless ecstasy and Liberation from the confines of my fearful, egoic mind.


--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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InvisibleLunarEclipse
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Re: anyone move past death anxiety? [Re: Icelander]
    #14523585 - 05/27/11 09:27 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
Personal identity is more a matter of societal convention than actual biological fact, because all life is connected and related.

And what about the rest of the animal kingdom?




I know you are but what am I?


--------------------
Anxiety is what you make it.


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: anyone move past death anxiety? [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #14523617 - 05/27/11 09:35 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

I care AND I don't care simultaneously. This is my daily experience: caring and not-caring,

I think about this a lot lately.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: anyone move past death anxiety? [Re: LunarEclipse]
    #14523618 - 05/27/11 09:35 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

LunarEclipse said:
Quote:

Icelander said:
Personal identity is more a matter of societal convention than actual biological fact, because all life is connected and related.

And what about the rest of the animal kingdom?




I know you are but what am I?





That's a really good question.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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