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xFrockx


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Re: anyone move past death anxiety? [Re: Icelander]
#14538085 - 05/30/11 09:42 PM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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No it is your fault if you've let it go this long. Not that fault really exists, but for fucks sake sharpen up before you get dementia.
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Mufungo
Coming at ya


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Re: anyone move past death anxiety? [Re: xFrockx]
#14538090 - 05/30/11 09:43 PM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
xFrockx said: "Good luck w/that. Stats don't take sides"
Yeah, but people who read them do. All the statistics in the world does not a single conclusion make.
Another way of saying it is, stats don't make conclusions, people do.
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Icelander
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Re: anyone move past death anxiety? [Re: Mufungo]
#14538103 - 05/30/11 09:46 PM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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I'll check those out. Thanks. I gave examples of the "how" people think influences their affect/behaviour on a moment to moment experience.
I don't see how this is at variance with anything Becker says about death anxiety. I know from experience how I think about things effects my anxiety levels but something is still causing my anxiety initially.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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xFrockx


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Re: anyone move past death anxiety? [Re: Icelander]
#14538126 - 05/30/11 09:50 PM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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People with degrees like to rehash things and put their name on them. It helps them cure their boredom, insecurity, death anxiety, existential terror.
Edited by xFrockx (05/30/11 09:51 PM)
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Icelander
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Re: anyone move past death anxiety? [Re: Mufungo]
#14538143 - 05/30/11 09:53 PM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
Mufungo said: I have not really any anxiety of death, but I do occasionally have anxiety or fear about conceivably undesirable experiences (in which I'll also include bad, unpleasant and unenjoyable experiences). IME people can imagine more undesirable things than death... hence, suicide. "I'd rather kill myself than live this way", I hear people say from time to time when sizing up the least undesirable option. Gee, the number of people who kill themself after a break up of a relationship; sometimes a major change in life is more undesirable than death. And sometimes individuals kill themselves due to feelings of shame/guilt/depression, or kill themself to escape being caught and punished. On the flip side, the fear or anxiety people feel when thinking of "dying too soon" can be easily chalked up to, in a lot of situations, to anxiety of another undesirable experience, the undesirable experience of losing something considered valuable. People think they "have" a life, and then fear or get anxious about "losing it", not necessarily of death in and of itself. They anticipate a feeling of loss before it has happened, and that feeling is undesirable. Not much different to losing anything someone puts a value on; the greater the personal value of the lost object positively correlated with greater distress of losing it.
It's not anxiety of the unknown either, it's anxiety of thinking of possible undesirable knowns.. like feeling nausea/pain/distress, etc. For example, I know very little about the universe, I don't even know what I don't know. Yet I'm not anxious or afraid of what I don't know out there. On the other hand, if I imagined something undesirable, like aliens coming down to earth and raping my bottom, then that is more anxiety/fear provoking, especially if I really believe it. Butt.. thankfully from my current perspective I think it's very unlikely that particular undesirable thing would happen. But compared to the unknown, aliens raping my butt is certainly more anxiety provoking. Even the unknown of death isn't worrisome if I don't associate anything bad with it.
The nice stories people make up about death too are in an attempt to escape thoughts of undesirable experiences they could imagine happening. My story of what happens after death is that there is nothing, and that seems really nice to me. So death doesn't worry me. But being sick and/or feeling pain for an extended period of time worries me more. So people make up nice stories about lots of things to counteract or exclude potentially undesirable thoughts of undesirable experiences. Like when I get up in front of a crowd to talk, I imagine people being interested in what I say and clapping at the end (my desirable outcome) rather than booing with scowling faces (my undesirable outcome). Because I don't know what the actual outcome will necessarily be of me getting up and talking in front of crowds until after it happens, it's still not anxiety provoking if I don't imagine anything undesirable happening. I laugh when a person can get up in front of a lecture theater full of people to ask a question or give a comment when they feel the need. But if you tell the same person that they had to get up in front of everyone to do the same thing, they shit themself, because they have the opportunity to think about it and all of a sudden potential undesirable outcomes of doing it are imagined.
So overall, each time I come across the concept of "death anxiety", I am overwhelmed with the sense of "meh"... 
From what I understand the problem is that death itself is not the fear but the impermanence of the personality or the "self". The self does believe that it can have an end.
Now like I said I always come back to a certain type of anxiety when I quit distracting myself. I have been able to change many anxiety states by rationally disputing my beliefs but never around this anxiety about death. Why do you think that is?
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Mufungo
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Re: anyone move past death anxiety? [Re: Icelander]
#14538147 - 05/30/11 09:53 PM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
Icelander said: I'll check those out. Thanks. I gave examples of the "how" people think influences their affect/behaviour on a moment to moment experience.
I don't see how this is at variance with anything Becker says about death anxiety. I know from experience how I think about things effects my anxiety levels but something is still causing my anxiety initially.
The "how you think about things" is causing your anxiety. How you learned to be anxious about certain things is based on conditioning and habituation through your life time up til now. What can be learned can be unlearned, or something else can be learned to replace prior learnings.
Sorry, I do have to go now. I can probably read your response later but I probably won't respond myself for a little while.
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Icelander
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Re: anyone move past death anxiety? [Re: xFrockx]
#14538152 - 05/30/11 09:54 PM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
xFrockx said: People with degrees like to rehash things and put their name on them. It helps them cure their boredom, insecurity, death anxiety, existential terror.
I don't know what post you are relating this to.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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xFrockx


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Re: anyone move past death anxiety? [Re: Icelander]
#14538175 - 05/30/11 09:58 PM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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"I don't see how this is at variance with anything Becker says about death anxiety."
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Icelander
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Re: anyone move past death anxiety? [Re: Mufungo]
#14538217 - 05/30/11 10:03 PM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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So therefore, if someone does not have anxiety provoking thoughts associated with thoughts of death (future event) then they won't feel anxious by death.
Actually I usually don't have anxious feelings about the thought of death or dying (as long as pain is not involved) I think of death as generally a good thing. Still I must admit that when I think of myself (personality, ego etc.) not being anymore I feel vague feelings of distress or anxiety. These seem unrelated to the actual act of death or dying and the positive possibilities that death might bring.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Icelander
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Re: anyone move past death anxiety? [Re: xFrockx]
#14538219 - 05/30/11 10:04 PM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
xFrockx said: "I don't see how this is at variance with anything Becker says about death anxiety."
you lost me
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Icelander
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Re: anyone move past death anxiety? [Re: Mufungo]
#14538244 - 05/30/11 10:11 PM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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I could imagine going to hell and burning, being in pain, etc. which isn't desirable and thus anxiety/fear provoking. Or I could imagine something nicer. Either way of imagining, when I am thinking about death, there isn't an absence of thought, my mind fills in the blank with some imagined experience..
This is my understanding of how we use our thoughts as shields against anxiety. If I'm afraid of something I can distract myself from the anxiety with thoughts of a positive outcome. That does not mean a positive outcome is assured or possible but it does relieve the anxiety somewhat. I can relieve the fear of what happens after death by creating a god and a heaven and a set of rules to follow to assure myself of getting there. This relieves anxiety in the present. I've used this thought as a shield to hide from my anxiety about what happens after death.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Icelander
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Re: anyone move past death anxiety? [Re: Mufungo]
#14538265 - 05/30/11 10:15 PM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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Is unconscious anxiety measurable or identifiable to anyone; identifiable to the self or outside observer?
According to people like Freud, Jung etc. the answer would be yes. Isn't this how much psychoanalysis works?
Things like word association etc. I'm no expert but what I've read by these guys sure makes it look like they can often see what is going on in their patients unconscious to some degree. Also things like dream analysis etc.
Also I was hoping you might have some links to sources who agree with your theories on this matter.
Becker goes into much greater detail on all this than I have here ever. He makes some case for how we can see our unconscious motives in day to day activities or in cultural norms.
For instance having a male heir to carry on your name or building monuments to your name that will live on symbolically after you are gone etc. The pyramids were great examples. You may think the book not worth reading but he defends the idea much better than I can and goes into a lot of detail that I don't remember offhand. It's also a very interesting read whether you believe it or not. Personally I do just as you believe in your ideas. Ultimately that doesn't matter an is why I said that if you don't agree I can live with that. It's not that I didn't want to debate the ideas, I was just stating the obvious.
Edited by Icelander (05/30/11 10:26 PM)
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xFrockx


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Re: anyone move past death anxiety? [Re: Icelander]
#14538308 - 05/30/11 10:23 PM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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I was joking about how there was so little difference between Becker and "TMT".
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Icelander
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Re: anyone move past death anxiety? [Re: xFrockx]
#14538324 - 05/30/11 10:27 PM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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Oh I get it. Well they built on his foundation. We all do this to some degree don't we?
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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xFrockx


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Re: anyone move past death anxiety? [Re: Icelander]
#14538459 - 05/30/11 10:58 PM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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Yes and it continues to happen in the field repeatedly. Its like many different ways of talking about the same thing. Something happens to people when we feel a certain way about things. What actually happens is what it is, and why it happens is not a mystery because of some strange reason, but because our capacity to explain the causes of anything is limited by our instrument of language. Its like the paradox in the other thread, except that to explain one moment of your life, you would need to write forever, and you would absolutely never be finished because you could always explain in different focuses and with different words. But even if you could write into infinity and then end up at the end, which does not actually exist, what you would be left with is words, and something that would not actually give someone what happened. What another person could understand of your infinite novel would be shaped by their own experience that give your words meaning to them.
Plato once wrote there are four instruments of language, in no particular order. First are names. Second, are definitions. Third, images, and fourth, knowledge. Then, before all these, stands the fifth, the knowable and truly real thing.
I plead the fifth.
Edited by xFrockx (05/30/11 11:04 PM)
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Icelander
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Re: anyone move past death anxiety? [Re: xFrockx]
#14539398 - 05/31/11 05:58 AM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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What's your point? Language is what we're stuck with. What culture can exist without it and what is man without culture.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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xFrockx


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Re: anyone move past death anxiety? [Re: Icelander]
#14539751 - 05/31/11 08:25 AM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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I'm not stuck in language, I don't know about you. I'm stuck in reality.
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Icelander
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Re: anyone move past death anxiety? [Re: xFrockx]
#14539797 - 05/31/11 08:36 AM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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What is?
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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xFrockx


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Re: anyone move past death anxiety? [Re: Icelander]
#14539799 - 05/31/11 08:38 AM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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You tell me sonny.
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Icelander
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Re: anyone move past death anxiety? [Re: xFrockx]
#14539874 - 05/31/11 09:13 AM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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what is you tell
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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