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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery



Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
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Re: anyone move past death anxiety? [Re: xFrockx]
#14537661 - 05/30/11 08:18 PM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
xFrockx said: So what makes that any different from a person who believes in vibrations of the universe and universal harmonies feeling right to them? Does holding the idea not create a kind of placebo effect?
If they have experiences that seem to verify that and their effort to honestly look at all explanations and evidence support it there is no difference. Like I said I really don't know what is true but instead make guesses.
And yes it could create a placebo effect.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery



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Posts: 95,368
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Re: anyone move past death anxiety? [Re: Mufungo]
#14537732 - 05/30/11 08:34 PM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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The reason I assumed you read the book was due to this statement.
There needn't be a buffer system. I think the idea of a "buffer system" used to help support the death anxiety theory and that is used in TMT lacks validity and the research supporting the theory of a buffer system is supported by erroneous conclusions based on correlation.
You went on to say the evidence does not support the theories on death anxiety and so I had to assume you had read the theories put out in Becker's work.
Btw what does TMT stand for?
Also could you tell me what these better explanations are? If Becker's work makes no sense and you understand it and have seen better ones I'd love to hear them.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Cups
technically "here"


Registered: 12/24/09
Posts: 1,925
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Re: anyone move past death anxiety? [Re: Icelander]
#14537797 - 05/30/11 08:46 PM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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-------------------- What's up everybody?!
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xFrockx


Registered: 09/17/06
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Re: anyone move past death anxiety? [Re: Cups]
#14537811 - 05/30/11 08:49 PM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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Why... Whyyyyyyyyyy?!.... do people keep coming up with this shit?
"According to TMT theorists, symbols that create cultural worldviews are fiercely protected, as representations of actual life. The Terror Management Theory posits that when people are reminded of their own deaths, they more readily enforce these symbols, often leading to punitive actions, violence, and war."
Some people try to speak for everyone as if there is a human nature. I wish instead of saying "symbols that create cultural worldviews are fiercely protected" they would say "if symbols that create cultural worldviews are fiercely protected."
Edited by xFrockx (05/30/11 08:56 PM)
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Cups
technically "here"


Registered: 12/24/09
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Re: anyone move past death anxiety? [Re: Cups]
#14537819 - 05/30/11 08:51 PM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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its sticky
-------------------- What's up everybody?!
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery



Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
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Re: anyone move past death anxiety? [Re: Cups]
#14537849 - 05/30/11 08:57 PM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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xFrockx


Registered: 09/17/06
Posts: 10,455
Loc: Northeast
Last seen: 12 days, 17 hours
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Re: anyone move past death anxiety? [Re: Icelander]
#14537857 - 05/30/11 08:59 PM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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You found a new toy!
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery



Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
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Re: anyone move past death anxiety? [Re: xFrockx]
#14537873 - 05/30/11 09:01 PM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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From the little I scanned it's basic Becker. I will read more later as I'm posting here while watching a movie and eating dinner.
Multi tasking as an anxiety shield.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Cups
technically "here"


Registered: 12/24/09
Posts: 1,925
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Re: anyone move past death anxiety? [Re: Icelander]
#14537881 - 05/30/11 09:03 PM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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Yeah except this one has actual experiments with real results he can use to battle you with.
-------------------- What's up everybody?!
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery



Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
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Re: anyone move past death anxiety? [Re: Cups]
#14537889 - 05/30/11 09:04 PM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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who's he?
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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xFrockx


Registered: 09/17/06
Posts: 10,455
Loc: Northeast
Last seen: 12 days, 17 hours
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Re: anyone move past death anxiety? [Re: Cups]
#14537898 - 05/30/11 09:05 PM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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I'll deal with those one at a time.
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Cups
technically "here"


Registered: 12/24/09
Posts: 1,925
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Re: anyone move past death anxiety? [Re: Icelander]
#14537920 - 05/30/11 09:11 PM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
Icelander said: who's he?
You.
Sorry I don't always follow proper "reply" etiquette.
-------------------- What's up everybody?!
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Cups
technically "here"


Registered: 12/24/09
Posts: 1,925
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Re: anyone move past death anxiety? [Re: xFrockx]
#14537929 - 05/30/11 09:12 PM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
xFrockx said: I'll deal with those one at a time.
Good luck w/that. Stats don't take sides...although I am looking forward to mufungo's responses since he said he's taken part in some of this research.
-------------------- What's up everybody?!
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery



Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
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Re: anyone move past death anxiety? [Re: Cups]
#14537930 - 05/30/11 09:12 PM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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You are going to die for that. (sooner or later) Be very afraid.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Cups
technically "here"


Registered: 12/24/09
Posts: 1,925
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Re: anyone move past death anxiety? [Re: Icelander]
#14537938 - 05/30/11 09:13 PM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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Here's to it.
-------------------- What's up everybody?!
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery



Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
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Re: anyone move past death anxiety? [Re: Cups]
#14537943 - 05/30/11 09:14 PM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
Cups said:
Quote:
xFrockx said: I'll deal with those one at a time.
Good luck w/that. Stats don't take sides...although I am looking forward to mufungo's responses since he said he's taken part in some of this research.
You most likely understand Becker's ideas better than I do. I'm a slacker when it comes to detail. It's my parents fault.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Cups
technically "here"


Registered: 12/24/09
Posts: 1,925
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Re: anyone move past death anxiety? [Re: Icelander]
#14538004 - 05/30/11 09:26 PM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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I doubt that.
BTW Have you ever heard/read this?- http://www.ernestbecker.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=297:flight-from-death-20-dvd&catid=12:premium-audio-recordings&Itemid=38
I've looked online for it but I think I'm going to have to order it. I am beyond interested to hear what Becker said when he knew he was about to die.
-------------------- What's up everybody?!
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery



Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
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Re: anyone move past death anxiety? [Re: Cups]
#14538071 - 05/30/11 09:39 PM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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Yeah that would be interesting. I actually think I remember hearing that he said something like, "I NEVER ACTUALLY THOUGHT IT WOULD HAPPEN TO ME"!
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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xFrockx


Registered: 09/17/06
Posts: 10,455
Loc: Northeast
Last seen: 12 days, 17 hours
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Re: anyone move past death anxiety? [Re: Cups]
#14538080 - 05/30/11 09:41 PM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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"Good luck w/that. Stats don't take sides"
Yeah, but people who read them do. All the statistics in the world does not a single conclusion make.
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Mufungo
Coming at ya


Registered: 04/03/07
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Re: anyone move past death anxiety? [Re: Icelander]
#14538084 - 05/30/11 09:42 PM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
Icelander said: The reason I assumed you read the book was due to this statement.
There needn't be a buffer system. I think the idea of a "buffer system" used to help support the death anxiety theory and that is used in TMT lacks validity and the research supporting the theory of a buffer system is supported by erroneous conclusions based on correlation.
You went on to say the evidence does not support the theories on death anxiety and so I had to assume you had read the theories put out in Becker's work.
Btw what does TMT stand for?
Also could you tell me what these better explanations are? If Becker's work makes no sense and you understand it and have seen better ones I'd love to hear them.
TMT is Terror Management Theory (as mentioned above). I haven't read Becker's book but I've done quite a bit of research with TMT, so I think I have a good enough handle on the concepts of the death anxiety theory to see that the phenomena that death anxiety theory sets out to explain can be better and more easily explained with other theories.
The evidence in support of death anxiety, as put forth by Terror Management Theorists, although it seems to offer support, when other explanations are provided to explain correlations of data, then I think the support for the theory crumbles... because the theory is reliant upon interpreting the data in a very specific kind of way. Other than the scientific approach, the other evidence for death anxiety theory is based on some sort of a priori logic, inventing abstract concepts to fill in gaps, and anecdotal evidence. That said, I have presented my own ideas using anecdotes (to give context to what I was talking about) while grounded within cognitive behavioural interpretations, requiring fewer abstractions (less need to invent abstract concepts to fill in the gaps), of phenomena I was describing.
The theories I used to provide better explanations are based upon cognitive behavioural theories around fear/anxiety and theories of learning (conditioning and habituation). I used those theories previously in this thread to provide alternative explanations. I gave examples of the "how" people think influences their affect/behaviour on a moment to moment experience.
Here are the links...
http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/14514328#14514328
http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/14528546#14528546
http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/14529453#14529453
http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/14529502#14529502
http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/14534750#14534750
http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/14534828#14534828
http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/14534982#14534982
I've got a deadline to meet so probably won't have the time to respond again for a few days. I only ask that people realise that death anxiety isn't necessarily a thing, it is just a theory or story to explain experiences, behaviour, and other social phenomena. There are other theories and stories to explain those same experiences. The other theories, such as cognitive behavioural theories, have been tested for decades and can be found quite easily if someone wants to actually test the validity of the death anxiety theory (by appealing to other theories that can explain the phenomena better but without as many presumptions).
A tip just to think about is how would it if you framed experience/behaviour rather than as an imperative to avoid death, instead, frame it as an imperative to avoid undesirable experiences the you've experienced or can imagine experiencing... you may find that it puts a completely different slant on what drives thoughts and behaviours and the different frame makes better sense of why some people aren't anxious about death and why some people prefer suicide over living.
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