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OfflineZangarmarsh
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Registered: 02/16/11
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Last seen: 12 years, 1 month
PC/Sterilizer Question. Can I Guarantee Spore Death?
    #14508205 - 05/25/11 02:23 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

My question is as such, can I predict with 100% certainty death to all mold spores in my substrate bags, so long as I find the right cooking technique/temp/time? Or is it always a gamble?

My situation is this, I have an AA921 Pressure cooker.  I am attempting to sterilize (2) filter patch bags containing 6 Quarts of Material in each bag.  I have tried 90 minute @15psi and I've gotten mold, I've tried 120min @20 and got mold, and what I thought would be a guaranteed success I have tried 25psi for 3 AND 4 hours and I've got mold.

These times are from the moment it hits the correct temp, and I stabilize the heat source.

My setup is this, inside the AA921 I have an aluminum cooking pot slightly smaller then the PC, I use this to keep my bags out of the water.  I take a damp towel and place it over the mouth of the PC, I place the (2) 5 quart bags down inside the towel,  I tuck the loose towel between the bag and cooking pot to sinch the bags in nice and tight, so they don't expand during the cook.  I don't use spacers.

Even with out Canning Rings as spacers between the bottom of the pot, and separating the bags from the sides and each other, couldn't I expect that at some time during my 4 hour 25PSI Cook I would have penetrated the entire bag(s) and held temp long enough to kill all life?  Is it really that critical to have as much bag surface exposed to the steam as possible?

I have been successful in the past, cooking 3 Quart bags (4 at a time) using coir/coffee/seed substrate, but I have moved into using red wiggler compost and field aged manure.  I've been feeding my worms all the spent/contam bricks, so I know for certain I'm using substrate material that has the mold.  My real problem is that I thought for sure I could remedy this by using higher temp with longer cooks.

I can't NOT use this compost now that I've troubled myself to make it, and I have a TON.

I hint that maybe it is because I've not spaced the bags, but is it really?  Lets say Even if it was 1 Large 20 quart bag that I just barely managed to squeeze into my pot (which acts like the AA Sterilizer/Autoclave basket) wouldn't there be at some point in time, full penetration and death to all life in that 20quart bag?

Should I try a 5 hour cook next?

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OfflineSteve
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Re: PC/Sterilizer Question. Can I Guarantee Spore Death? [Re: Zangarmarsh]
    #14508214 - 05/25/11 02:29 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Cant really help you too much but I have found when PCing WBS up to 2 1/2 hours I sometimes get trich after a week.
:confused:

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OfflineZangarmarsh
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Registered: 02/16/11
Posts: 12
Last seen: 12 years, 1 month
Re: PC/Sterilizer Question. Can I Guarantee Spore Death? [Re: Zangarmarsh]
    #14517740 - 05/26/11 09:09 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Any late evening members that might have some insight for me?

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OfflinePfffffff
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Re: PC/Sterilizer Question. Can I Guarantee Spore Death? [Re: Zangarmarsh]
    #14517759 - 05/26/11 09:12 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

I'd venture to guess that someone is going to ask you your inoculation procedure in regards to sterile technique.


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OfflineRogerRabbitM
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Re: PC/Sterilizer Question. Can I Guarantee Spore Death? [Re: Zangarmarsh]
    #14517792 - 05/26/11 09:17 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Zangarmarsh said:
My setup is this, inside the AA921 I have an aluminum cooking pot slightly smaller then the PC, I use this to keep my bags out of the water.  I take a damp towel and place it over the mouth of the PC, I place the (2) 5 quart bags down inside the towel,  I tuck the loose towel between the bag and cooking pot to sinch the bags in nice and tight, so they don't expand during the cook.  I don't use spacers.





This is your problem.  Get rid of the cooking pot and you'll have complete sterilization.  The steam isn't penetrating down into the pot.

An AA sterilizer comes with an insert, but it also has a steel tube from the exhaust vent on the lid(toggle valve), down to the bottom of the insert.  This causes steam to rise up along the outside edge of the insert, then to flow over the top and all the way to the bottom of the insert, where it enters the tube and escapes.  This ensures all the air gets out.  In your setup at 15 psi, you're essentially using the PC as an oven at 250F, and we all know that won't work.

In addition, use spacers between each and every substrate.  It greatly reduces the amount of distance the heat must travel by conduction through the substrate material.
RR


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"I've never had a failed experiment.  I've only discovered 10,000 methods which do not work."
Thomas Edison

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OfflineZangarmarsh
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Registered: 02/16/11
Posts: 12
Last seen: 12 years, 1 month
Re: PC/Sterilizer Question. Can I Guarantee Spore Death? [Re: Pfffffff]
    #14517918 - 05/26/11 09:39 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

To put in perspective, last month I created 300 Spawn bags with open air grain 2 grain.  These bags were 1 quart each and cooked 8 at a time in the same pressure cooker 120m @ 15psi.  They each received a quarter piece of a 250ml mason jar of fully colonized grain.  Of these 300 bags I had 0 contam.

The month previous I inoculated 3 quart Coir/Coffee/WBS substrate bags using spawn I had made the month previous to the substrate. Open air 1 quart colonized grain to 3 quart coir/cof/wbs and 0 contam. 

I'm now being shocked with 40-50% contam rate after moving to larger 5/6 Quart bags and using Mainly Manure + Compost 50/50.

I sense that it's a combination of both these things creating my grief (Bag Size + New substrate) not just one or the other.  I know for certain there's trillions of spore life inside the compost.

I purchased an AA75X Autoclave yesterday.  If it is my PC (but I can't see how it is) I'll know soon.  To anyone interested, that autoclave on ebay with the "Make Offer" Accepted 700, and from quote I got today, I think they might have accepted 650.

So whats new to me is how to fully sterilize 2x 6quart bags that contain a known trouble maker like Compost.  I will try spacers on my next cook, but like I said 4 hours @ 25psi makes me feel that spacers or not every square inch of those bags should have felt the heat?

I hope to be doing 4x 5 Quarts in my new AA75X.  At that volume I want 0 contam like I've become accustom to.  If i have to cook it longer so be it, but I feel like somethings not right.  Could be that spacing is everything?

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OfflineZangarmarsh
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Registered: 02/16/11
Posts: 12
Last seen: 12 years, 1 month
Re: PC/Sterilizer Question. Can I Guarantee Spore Death? [Re: Zangarmarsh]
    #14517947 - 05/26/11 09:43 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Thanks RR.  So spacing IS everything.  Of all the posts I've read I've never got a sense that it was absolutely required just more a thing of efficiency.  These big bags prove it's needed.

Edited by Zangarmarsh (05/26/11 09:45 PM)

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OfflineRogerRabbitM
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Re: PC/Sterilizer Question. Can I Guarantee Spore Death? [Re: Zangarmarsh]
    #14521309 - 05/27/11 02:35 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

You better read my response again.  Spacing is important but it's not what is causing your fail.  Hopefully, you don't think $700 was a good deal for an AA 75X.  You can get them brand new for less than $800.

Open air grain to grain is also asking for failure, as is open air anything.
RR


--------------------
Download Let's Grow Mushrooms



semper in excretia sumus solim profundum variat

"I've never had a failed experiment.  I've only discovered 10,000 methods which do not work."
Thomas Edison

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OfflineZangarmarsh
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Registered: 02/16/11
Posts: 12
Last seen: 12 years, 1 month
Re: PC/Sterilizer Question. Can I Guarantee Spore Death? [Re: Zangarmarsh]
    #14523138 - 05/27/11 08:07 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

I did,  I will be using a proper basket now.  The $700 is for a new 75X from a popular drop shipping company on ebay.  They have a "make an offer" auction up there currently.  I offered 700 and they accepted, if I had waited and for the quoted information I received later that day from wisconsin aluminum foundry, I probably could have got it with an offer of 630/650. Live and learn.

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