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FirstAvailable
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Problem Colonizing Casing Layer with Polyacrylamide (Watering Crystals)
#8851904 - 08/30/08 11:23 AM (15 years, 5 months ago) |
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I did some searching on the forums, and have found that most people who have tried this have had no problems with getting their casing layer colonized.
I have some grain bags that have been colonized that I have broken up and cased with Polyacrylamide crystals. The brand I am using is Schultz Moisture Plus. I put a layer on the bottom, and a layer over the top. The layer on top is about .25 - .5" in thickness. I have had them in my incubator for about a week. There is a temp probe inside of one of the casings that has read 80-88F for the whole week. The grain itself has resolidified very well, so I'm pretty sure that is not the problem.
Is it possible that the casing layer is too thick? I am thinking of scraping some off, what do you folks think?
Also, I hydrated the crystals using water mixed with a little bit of peroxide. Could that be the problem?
Any thoughts on why I might be having this problem? Those with experience using watering crystals, I would greatly appreciate your input.
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quickpick
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Re: Problem Colonizing Casing Layer with Polyacrylamide (Watering Crystals) [Re: FirstAvailable]
#8851990 - 08/30/08 11:56 AM (15 years, 5 months ago) |
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Hey,
I'm not sure about you question but I would suggest you stay as far away from those crystals as you can. If you need help hydrating/rehydrating your casing then I suggest you use Yucca: Surfactant which promotes fungals: Yucca (to replace Jet Dry??)
Oh, and I'm not sure this is the right forum, maybe cultivation is better?
Here's the deal on those crystals:
[The one reason they might be OK to use is that the flushes are so quick with mushrooms, but even after just a month or two the crystals are not in good shape]
The following info is taken from a PDF by Linda Chalker-Scott titled "Super-absorbent water crystals - are they really so "super"?", get the full PDF HERE, and the references for the PDF are HERE
Quote:
Summary and recommendations:
Many of the products labeled “water gel crystals” and “poly-clear” are cationic PAM gels. Not only are they are more toxic to aquatic organisms and generally less effective than anionic gels in landscape situations, they can also contain higher levels of residual acrylamide. Even though these cationic gels are banned for many applications, they are still manufactured and sold in the United States, China, and other countries. Cationic PAM hydrogels should not be used in gardens and landscapes.
It is difficult to predict short-term effectiveness of anionic PAM hydrogels on plant survival and establishment, since the ability to absorb water is reduced by several environmental factors, especially salt, temperature extremes, ultraviolet radiation, and microbial activity. The functional lifespan of cross-linked PAM hydrogels used outdoors can be as short as 18 months and at best only a few years; they cannot be regarded as long-term solutions to landscape water needs.
This quote is important as some fungals breakdown the cyrstals, as do other microbes:
Quote:
Even if gels are protected from environmental exposure they will still be broken down by decomposition. A number of naturally occurring soil microbes have been identified as active decomposers of both soluble and cross-linked polyacrylamide gels. Decomposers include bacterial species (Bacillus sphaericus and Acinetobacter spp.) and white rot fungi (Dichomitus squalens, Phanerochaete chrysosporium, and Pleurotus ostreatus). The fungal species solubilize the polymer, which is then susceptible to further degradation by many other soil microbes.
It’s not surprising that polyacrylamide is rapidly broken down by decomposers; one study found the average size of the polymer to be less than 25% of the original in only 14 days of microbial action. These gels contain a significant amount of nitrogen, which is often a limiting nutrient in both aerobic and anaerobic environments.
And finally another quote:
Quote:
Moreover, excessive use of PAM can lead to nutrient deficiencies; phosphate and silicon were reduced in tomato and wheat, and this latter plant also suffered manganese and boron deficiencies when grown in under high PAM concentrations.
HTH
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FirstAvailable
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Re: Problem Colonizing Casing Layer with Polyacrylamide (Watering Crystals) [Re: quickpick]
#8852088 - 08/30/08 12:26 PM (15 years, 5 months ago) |
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I chose to put this in advanced since in my search, the vast majority of other watering crystal threads were also in advanced, so I figured that more people would be able to contribute to my thread in this forum as apposed to the regular cultivation.
As far as safety is concerned, I think it is already well established that Polyacrylamide is safe for growing mushrooms. The link you posted seems to be specific to plant use with long-term exposure in outdoor environments with uncontrolled microbial interaction. This is not what is happening in my case, so I think that is irrelevant.
There has been significant study with Polyacrylamide, and it has been found to be safe.
If you look at this thread: http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Cat/0/Number/2792928/page/0/fpart/1/vc/1
it is shown that this stuff does work. SunTzu links to a paper by Laurence Castle where he describes in detail his research with Polyacrylamide used as a casing material. You can read the first page of his paper here: http://pubs.acs.org/cgi-bin/abstract.cgi/jafcau/1993/41/i08/f-pdf/f_jf00032a019.pdf
Quote:
Mushrooms were analyzed by extraction, bromination, and quantification of acrylamide as 2-bromopropenamide using gas chromatography-mass spectrometry in the selected ion mode. No acrylamide monomer could be detected at a limit of detection of 0.5 pglkg. This demonstrates that acrylamide either does not translocate significantly from the mycelia to the mushroom fruit or that the monomer does not bioaccumulate, due perhaps to a high water solubility or chemical reactivity.
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quickpick
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Re: Problem Colonizing Casing Layer with Polyacrylamide (Watering Crystals) [Re: FirstAvailable]
#8852390 - 08/30/08 01:48 PM (15 years, 5 months ago) |
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Hey FA 
Your using them as a casing layer? That's not a good idea IMO. It's best to stick with natural substances, that is what mushroom have evolved to use and they use it better. I can foresee all kinds of problems using only that as a casing...least of which is the hyphae/mycelium will enter the crystals and the enzymes with start breaking it down releasing chemicals . Even the PDF you linked to is only taking about "embedding" crystals in casing, not using them as the only casing.
Quote:
By FirstAvailable As far as safety is concerned, I think it is already well established that Polyacrylamide is safe for growing mushrooms. The link you posted seems to be specific to plant use with long-term exposure in outdoor environments with uncontrolled microbial interaction. This is not what is happening in my case, so I think that is irrelevant.
I think you may have missed this quote:
Quote:
Even if gels are protected from environmental exposure they will still be broken down by decomposition. A number of naturally occurring soil microbes have been identified as active decomposers of both soluble and cross-linked polyacrylamide gels. Decomposers include bacterial species (Bacillus sphaericus and Acinetobacter spp.) and white rot fungi (Dichomitus squalens, Phanerochaete chrysosporium, and Pleurotus ostreatus). The fungal species solubilize the polymer, which is then susceptible to further degradation by many other soil microbes. (those are only the fungals which they tested for and they didn't test p.cube, etc which are considered decomposer's...)
It’s not surprising that polyacrylamide is rapidly broken down by decomposers; one study found the average size of the polymer to be less than 25% of the original in only 14 days of microbial action. These gels contain a significant amount of nitrogen, which is often a limiting nutrient in both aerobic and anaerobic environments.
The thread you linked to is more about the safety of ingesting mushrooms grown on only crystals, there is no data or proof that I'm aware which shows it is safe. And the PDF you linked to was talking about 'embedding' the cyrstls into a casing layer, if you grow with 100% cystyal casing the health risk maybe much higher:
Quote:
The polyacrylamide Hydrates 2 (Agricultural Polymers LM., Gloucester, U.K.) was added at 73 g/m2 to the casing mix giving 1.8 kg/ms calculated for polyacrylamide on a dry weight basis.
I doubt it will kill you but why risk the change of ingesting chemicals when there is a better and organic option? Every one will be happier with organics, you and the fungals 
The study you linked shows if mushrooms take up "acrylamide monomer" from the p.gel, which is not a important factor, well I guess it is for human ingestion but not for mushroom growth. The study also shows that mushrooms breakdown the p.gel. But what I found interesting is there reasons for using crystals, which are the very reasons I suggest you use yucca in your casing layer, not crystals. Trust me, your results from organic yucca and a natural casing substrate will be FAR superrior to water crystals (I would suggest using peat and wetting it with yucca for casing, or coir but peat is much better base for fungals):
Here the reasons for the addition of crystals in the paper: "Determination of Acrylamide Monomer in Mushrooms Grown on Polyacrylamide Gel"
Quote:
Incorporation of water-imbibing polyacrylamide into the casing mix is a recent development and is claimed to offer two major advantages to growers. First, it is said to encourage mycelia of the fruiting bodies to form and colonize the casing mix. Second, the polymer should reduce the need to apply water due to its large water capacity once hydrated to a gel. Since watering is considered to be a major route by which disease is introduced in mushroom cultivation (Hudson, 1986), extended intervals between watering should help reduce the incidence and severity of disease.
HTH
Edited by quickpick (08/30/08 01:54 PM)
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RogerRabbit
Bans for Pleasure


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Re: Problem Colonizing Casing Layer with Polyacrylamide (Watering Crystals) (moved) [Re: FirstAvailable]
#8852904 - 08/30/08 03:55 PM (15 years, 5 months ago) |
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This thread was moved from Advanced Mycology.
Reason: Moved to cultivation. Off topic in advanced mycology.
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FirstAvailable
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Re: Problem Colonizing Casing Layer with Polyacrylamide (Watering Crystals) (moved) [Re: RogerRabbit]
#8853210 - 08/30/08 05:38 PM (15 years, 5 months ago) |
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My main reason for using the crystals over anything else was that it just happened to be what I had at hand, so I decided on using it. It wasn't for any specific purpose.
I will check on he yucca for future endeavors, but right now, I just want to get something.
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FirstAvailable
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Re: Problem Colonizing Casing Layer with Polyacrylamide (Watering Crystals) (moved) [Re: FirstAvailable]
#8926788 - 09/14/08 01:19 AM (15 years, 5 months ago) |
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OK, so I finally got pins, and just in time. I thought i actually had overlay since it took so long. I was going to do some deep scoring, and on the day that I was about to do it, I got pins. I actually had a fork and alcahol and everything. I open the chambe and see pins. Perfect timing. hehe. It took about a week for the fruits to come to full maturity, I harvested today. a bit late, I should have done it yessterday, as they dropped spores today.
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FirstAvailable
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Re: Problem Colonizing Casing Layer with Polyacrylamide (Watering Crystals) (moved) [Re: FirstAvailable]
#8926890 - 09/14/08 02:01 AM (15 years, 5 months ago) |
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I took some pics of the harvest:
Heres the 2 casings in the chamber, the one on the left is a bit more agressive than the one on the right:

Closeup of one casing, the one that seems to be a bit more agressive:

a cute little pic of some aborts:

After harvest, i left a few of the less-mature shrooms still in to finish up and grow a bit more. Will pick them in a day or so.:


The goods. The ones on the clear plate are from the more dominant agressive casing, the ones on the blck plate are from the other casing:






This is my little dryer. I made it using a hard drie cge from an old antec PC tower:






and here it is in action:

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mooshroom
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Re: Problem Colonizing Casing Layer with Polyacrylamide (Watering Crystals) (moved) [Re: FirstAvailable]
#14394994 - 05/03/11 03:32 PM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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bump for pure awesomeness!
I'm going to case my cakes with water crystals as well.
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Carl Sagan
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Registered: 04/19/11
Posts: 922
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Re: Problem Colonizing Casing Layer with Polyacrylamide (Watering Crystals) (moved) [Re: mooshroom]
#14395061 - 05/03/11 03:54 PM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
mooshroom said: bump for pure awesomeness!
I'm going to case my cakes with water crystals as well.
-------------------- “Sacred cows make the best hamburger” Mark Twain Independant Research Foundation
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mooshroom
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Re: Problem Colonizing Casing Layer with Polyacrylamide (Watering Crystals) (moved) [Re: Carl Sagan]
#14395118 - 05/03/11 04:07 PM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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yeah, but since there's so little threads discussing this, I reckon it's a good idea to help popularize this successful experimental technique.
To me, water crystals are a lot more easier to find then vermiculite! I wish I knew about this before I allowed my cakes to pull two dwarf flushes... I could've cased them earlier.
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FirstAvailable
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Re: Problem Colonizing Casing Layer with Polyacrylamide (Watering Crystals) (moved) [Re: mooshroom]
#14507129 - 05/24/11 10:00 PM (12 years, 8 months ago) |
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Thanks for the bump.
It's true there is very little on this method, that's partially why I tried it.
A little tip, don't make the casing layer too thick, i found the shrooms had some trouble getting through and had to actually scrape some off.
Please post how your grow go's I'd be interested.
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mooshroom
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Re: Problem Colonizing Casing Layer with Polyacrylamide (Watering Crystals) (moved) [Re: FirstAvailable]
#14508191 - 05/25/11 02:19 AM (12 years, 8 months ago) |
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ah, i ended up with unusually midget fruits for the two flushes. my guess is genetics. i'm now doing a commercial rye bag that also uses water crystals along with vermiculite in the casing layer. it's good to see they're getting more popular.
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