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InvisibleautomanM
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Gravity and Acceleration
    #14495134 - 05/22/11 05:25 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Can anyone explain to me the mechanism (not the math) that makes objects in space accelerate towards gravitational objects?


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No, no, you're not thinking, you're just being logical. ~ Niels Bohr

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Invisiblefrith
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Re: Gravity and Acceleration [Re: automan]
    #14495332 - 05/22/11 06:02 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)



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InvisibleShins
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Re: Gravity and Acceleration [Re: automan]
    #14495416 - 05/22/11 06:19 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

automan said:
Can anyone explain to me the mechanism (not the math) that makes objects in space accelerate towards gravitational objects?




No one can lol.

We have some theories, but gravity is one of those things...

Gravity intrigues me And i'm still convinced it can be used to harness energy or work (EG. tidal power.)


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http://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/

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InvisibleHeavyToilet
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Re: Gravity and Acceleration [Re: automan]
    #14495860 - 05/22/11 07:54 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

I'm pretty sure the mechanism for how gravity works is not known yet.

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InvisibleautomanM
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Re: Gravity and Acceleration [Re: HeavyToilet]
    #14495955 - 05/22/11 08:14 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

I get that no one knows how mass causes gravity. I wonder how a curve in spacetime causes acceleration.


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No, no, you're not thinking, you're just being logical. ~ Niels Bohr

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OfflineDimi
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Re: Gravity and Acceleration [Re: automan]
    #14495973 - 05/22/11 08:19 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

" I wonder how a curve in spacetime causes acceleration", that's what gravity is.

I believe that gravity causes acceleration in just the same way that a marble would roll down a funnel shaped bedsheet.

In that analogy, the bedsheet is the space-time continuum, the object causing the distortion of the sheet is the star, planet, etc...

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InvisibleDieCommie

Registered: 12/11/03
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Re: Gravity and Acceleration [Re: automan]
    #14496180 - 05/22/11 09:05 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

automan said:
I get that no one knows how mass causes gravity. I wonder how a curve in spacetime causes acceleration.




What is an acceleration to you in your 3D euclidean perspective is a 'straight line' in the space time of general relativity.  Consider the notion that objects travel in a straight line unless acted upon.  What the model of general relativity does is allow for the geometry of space and time to warp such that it is non-euclidean.  In this warped, non-euclidean space 'straight lines' are called geodesics and these geodesics change their shape as a function of the mass around them.  Objects follow these geodesics like they are straight lines.

So, from the frame of reference of our earth... Our earth 'sees' a geodesic that wraps around the sun and back on to itself.  The earth follows this geodesic as though its a straight line, and it will only deviate from this geodesic to another if an external force is applied to it.

An analogy is to compare it to fictitious forces and non-inertial reference frames.  What you feel in a non-inertial reference frame as a force is just inertia keeping an object in a straight line in the inertial frame.  In a similar fashion, what you feel as a force in our 3D euclidean perspective is just 'inertia' keeping an object in its geodesic in the space-time perspective.

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InvisibleautomanM
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Re: Gravity and Acceleration [Re: DieCommie]
    #14496292 - 05/22/11 09:29 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

DieCommie said:
Quote:

automan said:
I get that no one knows how mass causes gravity. I wonder how a curve in spacetime causes acceleration.




What is an acceleration to you in your 3D euclidean perspective is a 'straight line' in the space time of general relativity.  Consider the notion that objects travel in a straight line unless acted upon.  What the model of general relativity does is allow for the geometry of space and time to warp such that it is non-euclidean.  In this warped, non-euclidean space 'straight lines' are called geodesics and these geodesics change their shape as a function of the mass around them.  Objects follow these geodesics like they are straight lines.

So, from the frame of reference of our earth... Our earth 'sees' a geodesic that wraps around the sun and back on to itself.  The earth follows this geodesic as though its a straight line, and it will only deviate from this geodesic to another if an external force is applied to it.

An analogy is to compare it to fictitious forces and non-inertial reference frames.  What you feel in a non-inertial reference frame as a force is just inertia keeping an object in a straight line in the inertial frame.  In a similar fashion, what you feel as a force in our 3D euclidean perspective is just 'inertia' keeping an object in its geodesic in the space-time perspective.




This is exactly what I am getting at. I think there is a missing measurement in physics. One that describes a unit of space, no in terms of length, width, depth, but in terms of the space on a 4 dimensional plane. I think gravity is a compression of space into a mass. The units of space around the compressed unit stretch towards the mass to fill in the void. It takes X amount of time for an object moving at a steady rate to pass through a unit of space, even if that unit is stretched towards a mass. This is what we view as gravitational acceleration towards a mass. I think with no reference points, the moving object, itself, would only register it moving at a constant rate through space while an outside observer would view it as acceleration.


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No, no, you're not thinking, you're just being logical. ~ Niels Bohr

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InvisibleDieCommie

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Re: Gravity and Acceleration [Re: automan]
    #14496339 - 05/22/11 09:38 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

I think with no reference points, the moving object, itself, would only register it moving at a constant rate through space while an outside observer would view it as acceleration.




No, the theory of general relativity requires just the opposite.  Acceleration and the force of gravity can each be measured/detected without any reference point.  Constant velocity (zero acceleration) is completely dependent on inertial reference frames, but acceleration is not.

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InvisibleautomanM
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Re: Gravity and Acceleration [Re: DieCommie]
    #14496354 - 05/22/11 09:42 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

If I strike that sentence, does the rest of it make sense?


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No, no, you're not thinking, you're just being logical. ~ Niels Bohr

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OfflineChuangTzu
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Re: Gravity and Acceleration [Re: automan]
    #14496497 - 05/22/11 10:06 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

automan said:
I get that no one knows how mass causes gravity. I wonder how a curve in spacetime causes acceleration.




Gravity causes space-time to warp, just like it causes massive objects to be attracted towards each other.  Does the warpage cause the attraction or does the attraction cause the warpage or does gravity do both independently?  The theory doesn't say--the mechanism isn't part of the theory.

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OfflineSimms
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Re: Gravity and Acceleration [Re: Dimi]
    #14503153 - 05/24/11 06:59 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Dimi said:
" I wonder how a curve in spacetime causes acceleration", that's what gravity is.

I believe that gravity causes acceleration in just the same way that a marble would roll down a funnel shaped bedsheet.







Yeah, hasn't no-one realized yet that this is explaining gravity with gravity?

IMHO this theory could be basically right, but not in that sense. What it can mean, is that the curvature of spcae-time bends, thus pulling things forward. But that AGAIN is explaining gravity with gravity: what pulls the space-time and how?


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InvisibleautomanM
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Re: Gravity and Acceleration [Re: Simms]
    #14503338 - 05/24/11 08:27 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

I disagree that a curve in space causes acceleration. A change in direction, sure. That's why I think there is a missing measurement in physics. A unit of 4 dimensional space. It seems like an object moving at a steady rate would move through a unit of space per rate. Even if that unit of space were stretched long by gravity. That would show as acceleration.


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No, no, you're not thinking, you're just being logical. ~ Niels Bohr

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OfflineDimi
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Re: Gravity and Acceleration [Re: automan]
    #14503459 - 05/24/11 09:15 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

"A change in direction, sure" <- that requires some form of acceleration.  Specically acceleration in a different direction.

Gravity has some relation to mass, and can be partially explained by it. A planet "sits" on the fabric of space-time, and it's mass bends the fabric around it, that that "bend" is, in itself gravity.

It's obvious that the more massive an object is, the more gravity it has. Take a black hole for instance, infinate mass at a single point, creates more gravity than light can escape. 

My question is, "why is graivity so weak compared to the other forces?", and M-Theory explains much of it, with it's many dimensions,  but that theory hasn't been proven yet.

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InvisibleautomanM
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Re: Gravity and Acceleration [Re: Dimi]
    #14503545 - 05/24/11 09:47 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

"A change in direction, sure" <- that requires some form of acceleration.  Specically acceleration in a different direction.




No it doesn't.



Quote:

Gravity has some relation to mass, and can be partially explained by it. A planet "sits" on the fabric of space-time, and it's mass bends the fabric around it, that that "bend" is, in itself gravity.




This example, while a good starting point for some, has caused much more misunderstanding than more examples. Picture in your head what you have been taught or have seen on tv. A big object sitting on a trampoline. The problem is you are picturing a 2 dimensional object stretched into a third dimension. Like I said, It's a good way to start your grasp on gravity. Even if you take it up a dimension, the example fails. Moving a 3 dimensional object through the forth dimension isn't too hard to grasp. I just did it when I threw my cereal bowl in the sink.

If you view gravity as a compression of space into a mass with the surrounding space stretching to fill in the gaps, it holds up and it more easer describes a curve in space.


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No, no, you're not thinking, you're just being logical. ~ Niels Bohr

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OfflineDimi
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Re: Gravity and Acceleration [Re: automan]
    #14503592 - 05/24/11 10:07 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

"If you view gravity as a compression of space into a mass with the surrounding space stretching to fill in the gaps, it holds up and it more easer describes a curve in space."

Yes, that would be an accurate description of how I view it. If I remember correctly, in Brian Greene's book, The Fabric of the Cosmos,  it was explained in this manner. Shoot, you know, it could have been in The Elegant Universe.

I am assuming you all know this author, or are familiar, but if not, he's a M-Theory/Theoretical Phsysics guy and his books are very readable compared to Stephen Hawking.

Also, how is a change in direction not some form of acceleration? Can you explain an example?

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OfflineSimms
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Re: Gravity and Acceleration [Re: Dimi]
    #14503700 - 05/24/11 10:36 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Dimi said:

Gravity has some relation to mass, and can be partially explained by it. A planet "sits" on the fabric of space-time, and it's mass bends the fabric around it, that that "bend" is, in itself gravity.

It's obvious that the more massive an object is, the more gravity it has. Take a black hole for instance, infinate mass at a single point, creates more gravity than light can escape. 






Yes, indeed, obvious, BUT: What causes the mass to bend the fabric of space-time, what is the link between those two?

Basically its the same thing: It is obvious that the more mass an object has, the more strongly it pulls other stuff.
Which is exactly the same answer as: It is obvious that the more mass an object has, the more strongly it pulls space-time in 4 dimentions.

Basically, there is no explanation on gravity whatsoever.


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InvisibleautomanM
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Re: Gravity and Acceleration [Re: Dimi]
    #14503749 - 05/24/11 10:52 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Dimi said:
Also, how is a change in direction not some form of acceleration? Can you explain an example?




Put a ball on the end of a string and spin it at 100rpm. It is infinitely changing direction, but maintaining 100 revolutions per minute. The actual speed of the ball would depend on the length of string, but it would stay the same.


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No, no, you're not thinking, you're just being logical. ~ Niels Bohr

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Offline5HTSynaptrip
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Re: Gravity and Acceleration [Re: automan]
    #14503820 - 05/24/11 11:17 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Angular_velocity

I wish I had paid more attention to math in 10-12th grade, because in college I stopped at the req. for my neuro major and I absolutely loved physics.  When you take chemistry and biology courses and use all of these units of measure, but don't know how they were derived, it's incredible to take physics and understand that aspect.  It really tied up a lot of the loose ends I had in my mind about some things.  Sucks I didn't take more advanced stuff (due to calculus being the extent of my mathematical skills), but an entire year of physics as an elective was one of the best choices I've made.

@DieCommie - I always enjoy your posts man.  Seriously, you teach me something in the majority of your replies to questions.  +5


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Science is a way of thinking much more than it is a body of knowledge. - My hero, who will be forever remembered, Carl Sagan.


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InvisibleDieCommie

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Re: Gravity and Acceleration [Re: Simms]
    #14503903 - 05/24/11 11:32 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Simms said:
Quote:

Dimi said:
" I wonder how a curve in spacetime causes acceleration", that's what gravity is.

I believe that gravity causes acceleration in just the same way that a marble would roll down a funnel shaped bedsheet.







Yeah, hasn't no-one realized yet that this is explaining gravity with gravity?





Everybody realizes that.  That is why its an analogy.  Analogies are not technically correct, its just a way of explaining to somebody who doesn't understand the technicalities.

Edited by DieCommie (05/24/11 11:42 AM)

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