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InvisibleSpector
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Re: Is this the way to get potent mushrooms? [Re: k00laid]
    #14498857 - 05/23/11 12:36 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

you should start from the top, and read the hole post, lol.
first,according to you, This is the first post ever, then theres a post every month. which is it?

obviously you grow the isolated myc in question and keep cloning the traits you favore, its all in the post discussion, its been stated already.
I didnt post the thread, i just added what i have come up with so far, and it turned into a isolation discussion thread. "Yo"
i wouldnt lable that as mushroom cultivation until you place the strain into a grain jar. "yo"

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Offlinek00laid
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Re: Is this the way to get potent mushrooms? [Re: Spector]
    #14498861 - 05/23/11 12:37 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Spector said:

first,according to you, This is the first post ever,




sorry i'll try to remember my [sarcasm][/sarcasm] tags next time.

but how does one go about cloning for potency?


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InvisibleSpector
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Re: Is this the way to get potent mushrooms? [Re: k00laid]
    #14498876 - 05/23/11 12:41 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

look it up, there are a ton of articles on Selective Breeding concept.
or you could read this thread to get a basic idea, buddy.

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Offlinek00laid
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Re: Is this the way to get potent mushrooms? [Re: Spector]
    #14498884 - 05/23/11 12:42 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

>.> well ive been reading a lot. but i still can't figure out the best way to test a mushroom to see how many potencies it has in it.

have you figured it out yet?


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InvisibleSpector
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Re: Is this the way to get potent mushrooms? [Re: k00laid]
    #14498937 - 05/23/11 12:51 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

I have never heard of a way to measure how much potencies a mushroom contains, other then to eat it. lmao

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OfflineKarate_donkey
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Re: Is this the way to get potent mushrooms? [Re: Spector]
    #14500168 - 05/23/11 05:22 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

I dont have any problem eating them or finding people to eat them for me.
Ive never understood why people give so much attitude about answering a question. If the topic does not interest you or you dont feel like helping someone, you dont have to click on the link.

Now back to my question. I have watched rr's video on strain isolation so i understand the basic concept on how to do it. What i was wondering is how rare is it to get an isolate that is pretty potent? I have eaten shrooms that i have bought that were the bomb. I have grown mushrooms a few times now and they have been alright but nothing crazy all from ms. So if i put some spores on agar take samples of all the isolates, fruit them out, and eat them individualy will i most likly end up with one that is "the bomb"? or is it most likly gonna take more work than that? making different orginal samples with different isolates until i get lucky enough to find one?


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InvisibleSpector
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Re: Is this the way to get potent mushrooms? [Re: Karate_donkey]
    #14500933 - 05/23/11 07:55 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

id say it would take a while, its a trial and error situation. expecially when your just starting and wanting to grasp it. iv been reading all day, you should too and we can compare notes later!

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InvisibleSpector
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Re: Is this the way to get potent mushrooms? [Re: Spector]
    #14501132 - 05/23/11 08:38 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

i wanted to add more to this.
i would guess finding that perfect potent variety of cube would be hard, or rare as you put it, to sumone like us. maybe it is in general. i imagine if anyone that produces spores, or work with cubes alot would of already have found the holy grail of potent mushrooms, but they havent.
so if i were you i would pick out what most ppl concider the most potent. dont start off my putting spores on agar, i did that just so i dont have to buy more syringes. instead noc sum jars, find big fruits, (after all we are looking for the best traits) print them, lable them, and keep the cap you have printed labled also with the print, then do side by side test and see which ones were the most potent. keep thos prints and noc sum more jars up, and repeat until you start seeing the ropey pattern in your agar.
that is my strategy at least, im sure there are TONS of diff ways to do it tho. :grin:

Quote:

RogerRabbit said:
You isolate strains and save a master from each one.  After the harvest and testing of each and every isolate, you go back to your well marked strain masters in the refrigerator and get out the best ones to grow, while discarding the poor performers. Properly prepared master slants will last for years in the refrigerator, allowing you to continue to grow the same isolate.
RR




Quote:

RogerRabbit said:
That's correct.  I've used up an entire box of 500 petri dishes before on one sproreprint.  All strains have to be tested for the qualities you seek.  I'll leave the 'how' up to you.
RR




Quote:

RogerRabbit said:
Every time monokaryotic mycelium mates with a compatible hyphae, a 'strain' is born.  That is the definition of 'strain', not the name somebody wrote on the sporeprint.  This means that one swipe of spores from a print onto agar can easily yield dozens, if not hundreds of strains.
RR




ughh, im trying to find this awsome post i seen on isolating myc that RR comment on, it was exactly what your looking for. i seen it but earlier but didnt think of it much till now!!! gonna keep looking

Edited by Spector (05/23/11 08:56 PM)

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InvisibleSpector
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Re: Is this the way to get potent mushrooms? [Re: Spector]
    #14501300 - 05/23/11 09:03 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

RogerRabbit said:
Why not call them what they are?  Strains.  The definition of a strain is not the geographical area the original print was taken from.  That's marketing.

As for cloning vs strain isolation, they're not related.  By the time a substrate fruits, hundreds or perhaps thousands of strains have exchanged DNA, either weakening or strengthening the mass.  What you get is a 'heinz 57' that may or may not be that great because the weaker genes and the stronger genes(mycelium) have all combined.  An example would be mixed breed dogs.  We've all seen good examples and others that are dumber then hell.

Strain isolation on agar begins when the spores first start to germinate.  I make the first transfers as soon as I can see mycelium growing from the point of inoculation, long before sectoring can be detected.  By doing this, and by continuing to separate each individual growth, you can isolate mycelium prior to the process of anastomosis combining dikaryons into a single mass.

You don't isolate looking for one super rhizomorphic strain.  You isolate down to single sectors and then fruit out each one to determine the best performer.  When you transfer mycelium to a grain master, the original petri dish the mycelium was taken from is placed into a clean refrigerator.  By doing this, when you find the best performing strain, you then go back to your well marked petri dishes, thus your original P1 culture.  This petri dish can be used to inoculate a few test tube slants that can be incubated for a week, then placed in cold storage.  Whenever you need mycelium, a tiny piece the size of a grain of rice can be taken from the test tube and put on agar to grow out, while the test tube is placed back into the refrigerator.  These stored test tube cultures preserve the low P value of your isolated strain for years.

I have a complete video tek on strain isolation and master slant preparation and use already filmed.  I'll release it when I get the rest of the teks filmed, and editing completed.  Hopefully soon.
RR



im still looking but i figure id post all the good stuff i found for future seekers :smile:

Quote:

RogerRabbit said:
Quote:

Sci-Fi said:
Agree. A clone is also an isolate, single strain, mono-culture. Same thing. You may have derived it via cloning a mushroom, but it's still a isolated strain.

Two or more strains creating one mushroom, together, without joining or exchanging genetic material?
That sounds like science fiction.




You are incorrect, as is scatmanrav.

There can be dozens of strains conspiring to form a single fruiting body, without these strains combining into a single organism.  This is well known and established in mycology.  Paul Stamets reports isolating up to 200 organisms from a single fruit.  It's not science fiction, it's science.  Picture thousands of individual soldiers in an army going to battle.  Each is separate, yet conspire to form the coherent fighting force.

An isolate can either come from a pairing of two compatible hyphae from separate spores, or from mycelium that has later combined via anastomosis into a single organism.  There can be monokaryotic pairings with other mononucleate mycelium, dikaryotic pairings with other multinucleate mycelium, or mono-dikaryotic pairings.  You know you have an isolate when there is no more sectoring on agar.

To the OP, rhizomorphic mycelium is not the only characteristic we isolate for.  The important thing is to get to single sectors and then fruit out each strain.  This is the only proved way to find the best performing strains.  Many rhizomorphic strains will be poor performers, but some will blow your socks off.  The latter are the ones you keep, discarding the former.  The only way to know is to fruit each one.  It's a long process, but it's fun and how we come up with the best commercial strains.
RR



ok so you dont want to actually clone the mushrooms its self lol
sorry i mislead you there

Idk i dont think ill ever find that thread again, its lost in the archives of noob questions. lol
but this is all good info! very basic but easy to understand.

Edited by Spector (05/23/11 09:18 PM)

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Offline3n1gm4
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Re: Is this the way to get potent mushrooms? [Re: Spector]
    #14501488 - 05/23/11 09:25 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

The most reliable way is to test every last shroom yourself, some in tea some fresh and some cracker. If anyone else gets any then you won't know how many potent shrooms grew so I would suggest casing a small tray with one quart of spawn/coir.

As for random isolates I don't know, I was under the impression you were supposed to look for sectors with roping growth that looks like it is twisting at the outside edge of the culture?

Will a difference in subs make a difference in potency, my coir sub flushes always seem more potent, lack of nutes make shrooms produce more actives?


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InvisibleSpector
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Re: Is this the way to get potent mushrooms? [Re: 3n1gm4]
    #14501888 - 05/23/11 10:49 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

3n1gm4 said:
As for random isolates I don't know, I was under the impression you were supposed to look for sectors with roping growth that looks like it is twisting at the outside edge of the culture?

Will a difference in subs make a difference in potency, my coir sub flushes always seem more potent, lack of nutes make shrooms produce more actives?




I Have heard alot that sub Has ALOT to do with potency! it seems logical. as you stated the nuts in the sub will be abundant, or mediocre. But dont quote me, i havent done side by side comparisons.
although!, if that theory is true, it would benifit to find a cube that
loves to soak up sum nuts and use it as a jump start to producing a potent fruit! its all a theory tho! (i hope ppl get ideas) :awesome:

but to looking for sectors i would say your correct,
Quote:

RogerRabbit said:
A sector is a strain.  A sector develops when compatible hyphae join to become a single organism, sharing genetics.  Strains can also join with other strains via dikaryotic pairings, known as anastomosis.  An isolate is a single strain, meaning you have transfered all the sectors to their own plates.

By taking tiny pieces of mycelium when I make transfers, I can often get to single sector isolates with three to four transfers.  The dish in the picture on the left below is the result of two or three transfers.  You can clearly see each sector by holding the dish up to the light.  Tiny cuts were made in each of these sectors to move that mycelium to new dishes, and each of those became a single sector isolate.  The right picture shows a dish that is still sectoring, and on the right is an isolated strain.  Note there is no sectoring at all.  Each and every isolate should be grown through the fruiting stage to determine the best performers.  Prior to doing so, a small amount of mycelium should be carefully labeled and placed into the refrigerator on a petri dish or culture slant.  This way, after fruiting, you can go back to an earlier stage in cell division for each future grow, capturing an aggressive strain.
RR





Edited by Spector (05/23/11 10:53 PM)

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Offline3n1gm4
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Re: Is this the way to get potent mushrooms? [Re: Spector]
    #14501908 - 05/23/11 10:54 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

I would agree, but would taking a large fruit from the first or second flush, cloning and then testing the potency make it easier to isolate a potent strain? If it is potent then you know it will have potent strains in the clone culture right?


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InvisibleSpector
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Re: Is this the way to get potent mushrooms? [Re: 3n1gm4]
    #14502032 - 05/23/11 11:24 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

ok, so as far as i know, when you take a mushy and print it(or clone it, first time only as stated above.) you do look
for those sectors, so if you were to clone a mushroom that you later found out was very potent and then got 2-3 sectors out of it, you would isolate those sectors have master cultures for each, cultivate them, keep your fav sectors, discard the ones you disliked and do the process over with that master culture, trying to isolate sectors, with in that sector.

you can only clone it the first time, after you start isolating strains, you can no longer clone from that strain or variety of mushroom, why?
because the tissue holds all the diffrent traits, they will expand and overlay each other. as oppose to when you have already isolated sectors in dishes that are still have all those other traits, but there smaller and hinding with in that sector. thats what iv got from RR's quotes and most threads and articals iv read.
I love this shit lol
:headbanger:

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Offline3n1gm4
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Re: Is this the way to get potent mushrooms? [Re: Spector]
    #14502158 - 05/23/11 11:57 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

I thought you could clone any mushroom even one grown from a complete isolate?


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Invisiblewygram
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Re: Is this the way to get potent mushrooms? [Re: Spector]
    #14502170 - 05/24/11 12:00 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

You are still talking about doing this backwards. Start with spores, isolate single sector strains and fruit each to test. When you wait to clone desirable mushrooms the various "strains" have mixed already, diluting the characteristics of any great strains that were in the mix.


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Offlinemill
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Re: Is this the way to get potent mushrooms? [Re: 3n1gm4]
    #14502202 - 05/24/11 12:07 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

3n1gm4 said:
The most reliable way is to test every last shroom yourself, some in tea some fresh and some cracker. If anyone else gets any then you won't know how many potent shrooms grew so I would suggest casing a small tray with one quart of spawn/coir.




Honestly, your trip will depends of lots of external parameters. What you eat, how is your mood, how tired you are for example. That is nearly impossible to test shrooms one by one by eating them and then be sure one of them is stronger. Thats pure myth.

I 100% agree with Koolaid about what he said. Want an harder trip, then eat more shrooms.

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InvisibleSpector
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Re: Is this the way to get potent mushrooms? [Re: wygram]
    #14502201 - 05/24/11 12:07 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

wygram said:
You are still talking about doing this backwards. Start with spores, isolate single sector strains and fruit each to test. When you wait to clone desirable mushrooms the various "strains" have mixed already, diluting the characteristics of any great strains that were in the mix.





could you go in a lil more in depth please?

Edited by Spector (05/24/11 12:23 AM)

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Offline3n1gm4
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Re: Is this the way to get potent mushrooms? [Re: wygram]
    #14502218 - 05/24/11 12:11 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

wygram said:
You are still talking about doing this backwards. Start with spores, isolate single sector strains and fruit each to test. When you wait to clone desirable mushrooms the various "strains" have mixed already, diluting the characteristics of any great strains that were in the mix.




Okay TYVM, very good to the point answer that I was looking for. It is amazing how a few simple words can open your eyes and make you understand the complex things others have said.:awesomenod::thumbup: for wygram!


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Edited by 3n1gm4 (05/24/11 12:11 AM)

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Re: Is this the way to get potent mushrooms? [Re: 3n1gm4]
    #14502230 - 05/24/11 12:15 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

I am looking for good visuals, so I can watch this on the 42" HDTV fullscreen


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InvisibleSpector
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Re: Is this the way to get potent mushrooms? [Re: mill]
    #14502234 - 05/24/11 12:15 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

mill said:
Quote:

3n1gm4 said:
The most reliable way is to test every last shroom yourself, some in tea some fresh and some cracker. If anyone else gets any then you won't know how many potent shrooms grew so I would suggest casing a small tray with one quart of spawn/coir.




Honestly, your trip will depends of lots of external parameters. What you eat, how is your mood, how tired you are for example. That is nearly impossible to test shrooms one by one by eating them and then be sure one of them is stronger. Thats pure myth.

I 100% agree with Koolaid about what he said. Want an harder trip, then eat more shrooms.




im not disagreeing with you, but yes, you could do it that way and keep it simple and passive. or you could go in deeper and invest sum time for future Grows. this discussion doesnt have to be just about potency, tho it is what the main poster was asking,it could be for easer highter yields, or Bigger,denser fruits ect.



Quote:

Roadkill said:
Quote:

Ok, who here isolates strains, and keeps master slants/cultures?




I do

Quote:

Do you find it much easier to get consitent results?




do I really have to answer this?
what do you think?

Quote:

I have only done multispore and some agar work, but never isolated and stored master cultures.




most people probably don't.
but if they want better fruits, better flushes and better yeilds...
they should.

Quote:

Do you find it worthwhile?




errrrrrr yeah!~


:grin:


tc



Edited by Spector (05/24/11 12:31 AM)

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