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tryptonite
mushroom ninja



Registered: 02/06/04
Posts: 931
Loc: aussie
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cinctulus identification by microscopy
#14497448 - 05/23/11 02:39 AM (12 years, 8 months ago) |
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a short while ago I found these
#1
 on the right is suspected thin stem cinctulus / fimicola
#2
 suspected subbalteatus
spore prints definitely looked jet black for #2, the first looked more gray black to me but not brown - indicating possibly fimicola
 on left - #2, middle - #1
people are still skeptical though that it is really a subb as they aren't found too often in Australia and there is no official record of their occurrence here.
here is the microscopy


so is anyone able to tell by these microscopy photos - Foe or Subb?
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Alan Rockefeller
Mycologist


Registered: 03/10/07
Posts: 48,276
Last seen: 11 hours, 17 minutes
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Re: cinctulus identification by microscopy [Re: tryptonite]
#14497470 - 05/23/11 02:54 AM (12 years, 8 months ago) |
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Its Panaeolus cinctulus. Cheilocystidia, spore size, shape and lack of ornamentation matches.
How did you measure the spores and get the Q ratio? And why do you call it E?
Great microscopy, you should post this on mushroomobserver.org as well if you haven't already.
The depth of field is small at this magnification and your micrographs could benefit from depth of field stacking. Combine ZP is the best one and it is free.
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tryptonite
mushroom ninja



Registered: 02/06/04
Posts: 931
Loc: aussie
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i'm really happy to hear that! both of them subbs? I wouldn't know about the microscopy, ferret was kind enough to do it for me.
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Alan Rockefeller
Mycologist


Registered: 03/10/07
Posts: 48,276
Last seen: 11 hours, 17 minutes
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Re: cinctulus identification by microscopy [Re: tryptonite]
#14497482 - 05/23/11 03:01 AM (12 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
tryptonite said: i'm really happy to hear that! both of them subbs?
Yes.
Quote:
I wouldn't know about the microscopy, ferret was kind enough to do it for me.
Its very good.
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tryptonite
mushroom ninja



Registered: 02/06/04
Posts: 931
Loc: aussie
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yes he did a great job. obviously has quite a bit of experience in this hobby.
heres the spore dimensions
#1: 12.0-14.0 x 7.9-8.0 , E=1.50-1.78 (1.74) #2: 10.8-12.1 x 7.9-8.7 , E=1.31-1.45 (1.37)
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The Inner Eye



Registered: 06/20/10
Posts: 1,151
Last seen: 8 years, 9 months
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Re: cinctulus identification by microscopy [Re: tryptonite]
#14497541 - 05/23/11 03:34 AM (12 years, 8 months ago) |
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Alan Rockefeller
Mycologist


Registered: 03/10/07
Posts: 48,276
Last seen: 11 hours, 17 minutes
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Re: cinctulus identification by microscopy [Re: tryptonite]
#14497561 - 05/23/11 03:49 AM (12 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
tryptonite said: #1: 12.0-14.0 x 7.9-8.0 , E=1.50-1.78 (1.74) #2: 10.8-12.1 x 7.9-8.7 , E=1.31-1.45 (1.37)
One strain has smaller spores, but I think they are the same species.
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tryptonite
mushroom ninja



Registered: 02/06/04
Posts: 931
Loc: aussie
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Quote:
Alan Rockefeller said:
Quote:
tryptonite said: #1: 12.0-14.0 x 7.9-8.0 , E=1.50-1.78 (1.74) #2: 10.8-12.1 x 7.9-8.7 , E=1.31-1.45 (1.37)
One strain has smaller spores, but I think they are the same species.
isn't #2 more similair in spore size to fimicola (10.8 — 14.2um)? how else can you differentiate it microscopically?
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ferret
strange

Registered: 08/19/01
Posts: 164
Loc: VIC, Australia
Last seen: 8 years, 5 months
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Quote:
Alan Rockefeller said:
How did you measure the spores and get the Q ratio? And why do you call it E?
Great microscopy, you should post this on mushroomobserver.org as well if you haven't already.
The depth of field is small at this magnification and your micrographs could benefit from depth of field stacking. Combine ZP is the best one and it is free.
cheers alan i'll look into that program, looks very useful.
the measurements are from measuring the pixels between a distance on the reticle with GIMP image editor. by E I mean length x width and i called it that because ive just been reading a paper in Australasian Mycologist that used it in that context- it seems Q would be more accepted though.
heres a couple more from the "subb" specimen at 1000x

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Alan Rockefeller
Mycologist


Registered: 03/10/07
Posts: 48,276
Last seen: 11 hours, 17 minutes
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Re: cinctulus identification by microscopy [Re: ferret]
#14497838 - 05/23/11 06:43 AM (12 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
tryptonite said: isn't #2 more similair in spore size to fimicola (10.8 — 14.2um)? how else can you differentiate it microscopically?
I think its almost within range.
For the exact differences check the Gerhardt monograph.
Quote:
ferret said: the measurements are from measuring the pixels between a distance on the reticle with GIMP image editor.
Did you check the reticle with a stage micrometer?
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ferret
strange

Registered: 08/19/01
Posts: 164
Loc: VIC, Australia
Last seen: 8 years, 5 months
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yep i figured its about 9.8,2.45,0.98 microns/division at 100,400,1000x
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masspan
l'eclair


Registered: 07/26/08
Posts: 5,268
Loc:
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Re: cinctulus identification by microscopy [Re: ferret]
#14498583 - 05/23/11 11:29 AM (12 years, 8 months ago) |
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i love this
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my mother said, to get things done, you'd better not mess with Major Tom...whose status is the baddest, everytime 'they' bless the apparatus
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psylosymonreturns
aka Gym Sporrison



Registered: 10/16/09
Posts: 13,948
Loc: Mos Eisley,
Last seen: 3 years, 5 months
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Re: cinctulus identification by microscopy [Re: masspan]
#14498714 - 05/23/11 12:08 PM (12 years, 8 months ago) |
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stellar work ferret !
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inski
Cortinariologist



Registered: 02/28/06
Posts: 5,720
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Nice work.
Once the Q values are obtained from one sample the average can be worked out and is referred to as E.
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creationdivine
Seeker Seeker



Registered: 07/23/09
Posts: 461
Loc: blest coast
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Re: cinctulus identification by microscopy [Re: inski]
#14499272 - 05/23/11 02:08 PM (12 years, 8 months ago) |
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sweet microscopy!
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Kickin' it with some Cinctulus!
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ferret
strange

Registered: 08/19/01
Posts: 164
Loc: VIC, Australia
Last seen: 8 years, 5 months
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Re: cinctulus identification by microscopy [Re: inski]
#14500185 - 05/23/11 05:26 PM (12 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
inski said: Nice work.
Once the Q values are obtained from one sample the average can be worked out and is referred to as E.
ahha thanks for clearing that up! what a myco noob.
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