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Invisibletryptonite
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Registered: 02/06/04
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cinctulus identification by microscopy
    #14497448 - 05/23/11 02:39 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

a short while ago I found these

#1

on the right is suspected thin stem cinctulus / fimicola

#2

suspected subbalteatus

spore prints definitely looked jet black for #2, the first looked more gray black to me but not brown - indicating possibly fimicola


on left - #2, middle - #1

people are still skeptical though that it is really a subb as they aren't found too often in Australia and there is no official record of their occurrence here.

here is the microscopy



so is anyone able to tell by these microscopy photos - Foe or Subb?


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OfflineAlan RockefellerM
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Re: cinctulus identification by microscopy [Re: tryptonite]
    #14497470 - 05/23/11 02:54 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Its Panaeolus cinctulus.  Cheilocystidia, spore size, shape and lack of ornamentation matches.

How did you measure the spores and get the Q ratio?  And why do you call it E?

Great microscopy, you should post this on mushroomobserver.org as well if you haven't already.

The depth of field is small at this magnification and your micrographs could benefit from depth of field stacking.  Combine ZP is the best one and it is free.



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Invisibletryptonite
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Re: cinctulus identification by microscopy [Re: Alan Rockefeller]
    #14497479 - 05/23/11 03:00 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

i'm really happy to hear that! both of them subbs?
I wouldn't know about the microscopy, ferret was kind enough to do it for me.


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OfflineAlan RockefellerM
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Re: cinctulus identification by microscopy [Re: tryptonite]
    #14497482 - 05/23/11 03:01 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

tryptonite said:
i'm really happy to hear that! both of them subbs?




Yes.

Quote:

I wouldn't know about the microscopy, ferret was kind enough to do it for me.




Its very good.


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Invisibletryptonite
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Re: cinctulus identification by microscopy [Re: Alan Rockefeller]
    #14497515 - 05/23/11 03:20 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

yes he did a great job. obviously has quite a bit of experience in this hobby.

heres the spore dimensions

#1: 12.0-14.0 x 7.9-8.0 , E=1.50-1.78 (1.74)
#2: 10.8-12.1 x 7.9-8.7 , E=1.31-1.45 (1.37)


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OfflineThe Inner Eye
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Re: cinctulus identification by microscopy [Re: tryptonite]
    #14497541 - 05/23/11 03:34 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

:thumbup:


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OfflineAlan RockefellerM
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Re: cinctulus identification by microscopy [Re: tryptonite]
    #14497561 - 05/23/11 03:49 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

tryptonite said:
#1: 12.0-14.0 x 7.9-8.0 , E=1.50-1.78 (1.74)
#2: 10.8-12.1 x 7.9-8.7 , E=1.31-1.45 (1.37)




One strain has smaller spores, but I think they are the same species.


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Invisibletryptonite
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Re: cinctulus identification by microscopy [Re: Alan Rockefeller]
    #14497660 - 05/23/11 04:53 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Alan Rockefeller said:
Quote:

tryptonite said:
#1: 12.0-14.0 x 7.9-8.0 , E=1.50-1.78 (1.74)
#2: 10.8-12.1 x 7.9-8.7 , E=1.31-1.45 (1.37)




One strain has smaller spores, but I think they are the same species.




isn't #2 more similair in spore size to fimicola (10.8 — 14.2um)?
how else can you differentiate it microscopically?


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Offlineferret
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Re: cinctulus identification by microscopy [Re: Alan Rockefeller]
    #14497744 - 05/23/11 05:45 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Alan Rockefeller said:

How did you measure the spores and get the Q ratio?  And why do you call it E?

Great microscopy, you should post this on mushroomobserver.org as well if you haven't already.

The depth of field is small at this magnification and your micrographs could benefit from depth of field stacking.  Combine ZP is the best one and it is free.





cheers alan i'll look into that program, looks very useful.

the measurements are from measuring the pixels between a distance on the reticle with GIMP image editor. by E I mean length x width and i called it that because ive just been reading a paper in Australasian Mycologist that used it in that context- it seems Q would be more accepted though.

heres a couple more from the "subb" specimen at 1000x






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OfflineAlan RockefellerM
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Re: cinctulus identification by microscopy [Re: ferret]
    #14497838 - 05/23/11 06:43 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

tryptonite said:
isn't #2 more similair in spore size to fimicola (10.8 — 14.2um)?
how else can you differentiate it microscopically?





I think its almost within range.


For the exact differences check the Gerhardt monograph.

Quote:

ferret said:
the measurements are from measuring the pixels between a distance on the reticle with GIMP image editor.




Did you check the reticle with a stage micrometer?


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Offlineferret
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Re: cinctulus identification by microscopy [Re: Alan Rockefeller]
    #14497885 - 05/23/11 07:04 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

yep i figured its about 9.8,2.45,0.98 microns/division at 100,400,1000x


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Offlinemasspan
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Re: cinctulus identification by microscopy [Re: ferret]
    #14498583 - 05/23/11 11:29 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

i love this

:sunny:


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my mother said, to get things done, you'd better not mess with Major Tom...whose status is the baddest, everytime 'they' bless the apparatus


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Offlinepsylosymonreturns
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Re: cinctulus identification by microscopy [Re: masspan]
    #14498714 - 05/23/11 12:08 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

stellar work ferret ! :thumbup:


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InvisibleinskiM
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Re: cinctulus identification by microscopy [Re: psylosymonreturns]
    #14498972 - 05/23/11 12:59 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Nice work.

Once the Q values are obtained from one sample the average can be worked out and is referred to as E.


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Invisiblecreationdivine
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Re: cinctulus identification by microscopy [Re: inski]
    #14499272 - 05/23/11 02:08 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

sweet microscopy! :thumbup:


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Kickin' it with some Cinctulus!


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Offlineferret
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Re: cinctulus identification by microscopy [Re: inski]
    #14500185 - 05/23/11 05:26 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

inski said:
Nice work.

Once the Q values are obtained from one sample the average can be worked out and is referred to as E.




ahha thanks for clearing that up! what a myco noob.


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