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OfflineKarate_donkey
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Is this the way to get potent mushrooms?
    #14495521 - 05/22/11 06:50 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

so i understand that potency is all genetic and with ms its just a crap shoot. So what i need do is keep growing ms grows until i get some awesome shrooms and clone one. But with mushrooms potency differing 10 fold from shroom to shroom, Cloning  the potent one is still a crap shoot after that. Should i clone a few different shrooms from the hypothetical awesome batch of shrooms I grew just to find the potent one? After I grow a batch from one of the clones are they all equally potent? Do I need to grow an entire batch of every ms grow or should I grow a few cakes keep the shrooms from each seperate dose the individually? Would it be faster to do it on agar? I would still need to grow them all out and does em to find out how good they were right?


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OfflineRogerRabbitM
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Re: Is this the way to get potent mushrooms? [Re: Karate_donkey] * 2
    #14495532 - 05/22/11 06:53 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

You isolate strains on agar and then test each one.  The few months you spend isolating and testing are nothing compared to the 20+ years you can grow the isolate you make with no variation.
RR


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Re: Is this the way to get potent mushrooms? [Re: RogerRabbit]
    #14495616 - 05/22/11 07:13 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

hey lucky fellow! RR replied to you first!

I kinda want to add my two cents as I did my own study on "Selective breeding" with dogs, and mushrooms, Totally diffrent topics but pretty much the same concept.
RR Deff pointed you in the right way, you need to start working with agar, but i have read that you can work with rye and WBS, Although agar would be MUCH easier to handle instead of having to reach into jars for that "ropey" myc, and transfer it to other jars. you would have to do that becuz you cant just Pound the jar and brake it up, that "ropey" variety of cube will be doin its own lil thing while the hole other side of the jar is just a ton of diffrent mycs doin there thing. look up "ropey mycs" lol.
ok so,
so when you get a syringe from your Fav shroomy vendor you first noc
your stuff up and get a batch goin, and like you said pick the patch that you favor most, print it or clone it, and start nocing more jars.
you pick the trains you love and discard the one you dont, and narrow down your options. so i dont keep makin this huge just look up a General article on Selective Breeding to understand the concept
I hope this helped!!! Good luck.


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Offline3n1gm4
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Re: Is this the way to get potent mushrooms? [Re: Spector]
    #14497346 - 05/23/11 01:49 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

So how many times will I have to agar to agar transfer 2-3 sectors of each petri to get a single strain?

Does it depend on how much myc you transfer? Like the less(one strand if possible) the better?


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Re: Is this the way to get potent mushrooms? [Re: 3n1gm4]
    #14497378 - 05/23/11 01:59 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

The less you Transfer,and narrow down your options the more you'll see variety in jars you noc up.
as for how many times you have to do agar transfer, thats up to you to get a single narrowed Variety. you cant really decide what trates you like more on just agar, you have to grow them.
There so much more to this, you should really look into it.
its all you have to do when ppl ask about, bigger fruits, or potent yeilds.


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Offline3n1gm4
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Re: Is this the way to get potent mushrooms? [Re: Spector]
    #14497411 - 05/23/11 02:14 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

I know you have to grow and have been reading teks and posts on agar for a week straight, not to mention what I have read in the past. I just want to know how you can tell when it is a single strain, does it have no rhizo growth when it is a single strain?

I was planning on cloning a MS fruit that looked nice, isolating 2-4 sectors depending on the growth, choosing the two of those that are the best looking and isolating those in 2-4 sectors and so on until I have the kind of rhizo growth that looks like something from superman's crystal palace, transfer that to a grain jar for making a GLC and growing that spawn hoping to get a 30-50-g fruit to take a plug from and then eat the clone donor to see if it is worth making a master culture out of. Is this righ, or should I just try for big & fast and then clone it and test for potency?

Fast is good but not #1, I want to isolate for potency, size is not an issue either, I have more than enough for me and a few friends and small mushrooms are more potent than fully mature ones by weight.


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Edited by 3n1gm4 (05/23/11 02:15 AM)


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Re: Is this the way to get potent mushrooms? [Re: 3n1gm4]
    #14497446 - 05/23/11 02:38 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

well how many petri dishes and agar do you have??
i would try both your methods, there both a good way to do it. the first for long term, and the second to kinda test and see what happends. Like i said im still perfecting but it sounds like you have it all planned out. But yea, your ultimate goal is to have a strainy, ropey, mycelium.

I would deff make a new post hoping to catch a Mods attention. i know RR has done this. i remember reading a post about him fantisizing in developing a shiitake that can grow off pine. thats were selective breeding comes in play.


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Offline3n1gm4
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Re: Is this the way to get potent mushrooms? [Re: Spector]
    #14497460 - 05/23/11 02:45 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

So do the splits between the rhizo growth mean it is a different strain and I need it to all look ropey but be all attached in a perfect circle? I have no dishes or agar yet that is why I am asking I need to know weather to get 20 or 40 dishes.

Most mushrooms produce spores. When a mushroom spore germinates, the mycelium that emerges from the spore generally has one nucleus per cell, and we refer to this as hyphae, or monkaryotic mycelium. When hyphae that emerged from two individual spores of the same species cross paths, if they’re compatible, they join together to exchange DNA between them. The resulting mycelium generally has two or more nuclei per cell, and is referred to as dikaryotic mycelium. This mycelium, formed from two separate hyphae, is the very definition of a strain.
Since it only takes two spores to make a strain, you can easily see how many strains can potentially differentiate when you use an inoculating loop to swipe thousands of spores from a sporeprint onto a Petri dish of agar media. The process of strain isolation involves transferring these individual growths, or sectors away from each other, so that each can be expanded and fruited to determine the best performing strains. Strains with the desired characteristics will then become part of your permanent collection, stored long-term in test tubes as master culture slants.

What I am getting from that is you want the myc to be rhizo looking but all twisted together meaning it is compatible and of same strain? Anyone?


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Edited by 3n1gm4 (05/23/11 03:20 AM)


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Re: Is this the way to get potent mushrooms? [Re: 3n1gm4]
    #14497486 - 05/23/11 03:03 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

This belongs in advanced mycology lol.
I would Imagine you would only need 20 dishes. I only have like..i think 7. But hey it sounds like you are farther along With the mycelium aspect of "Selective breeding" so far. Ive only been skimming thru articles and waiting to do big scale projects. now that i think of it i believe there is another term used in mycology instead of "selective breeding" any wayss...
Im ganna use sum of your info to look up more articles.
so yea, you should start a new thread so i can get sum more info :awesome:
great research by the way :thumbup:


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Offline3n1gm4
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Re: Is this the way to get potent mushrooms? [Re: Spector]
    #14497558 - 05/23/11 03:46 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Spector said:
This belongs in advanced mycology lol.
I would Imagine you would only need 20 dishes. I only have like..i think 7. But hey it sounds like you are farther along With the mycelium aspect of "Selective breeding" so far. Ive only been skimming thru articles and waiting to do big scale projects. now that i think of it i believe there is another term used in mycology instead of "selective breeding" any wayss...
Im ganna use sum of your info to look up more articles.
so yea, you should start a new thread so i can get sum more info :awesome:
great research by the way :thumbup:




All that info came from RR's website, I take no credit. I think I might be starting to understand a strain though. If two compatible strains of growth touch they exchange DNA and make the strain stronger?
When hyphae that emerged from two individual spores of the same species cross paths, if they’re compatible, they join together to exchange DNA between them. The resulting mycelium generally has two or more nuclei per cell, and is referred to as dikaryotic mycelium. This mycelium, formed from two separate hyphae, is the very definition of a strain.


So this means that your transfer to agar should look like rhizo twisted together over the whole culture to be an isolate, meaning all the strains that were not compatible and not transferred were compatible with some other strains and if you do it right then you will get an isolate that looks like twisted rhizo growth with no singled out/split away from culture growth. An isolate will look like it is one single entwined circle of rhizo growth with no splits or singled out rhizo strands?


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OfflineKarate_donkey
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Re: Is this the way to get potent mushrooms? [Re: 3n1gm4]
    #14497944 - 05/23/11 07:35 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

So with an isolate, are all the mushrooms of equal potency so I could just grow a small amount of each to test?
So when I put a sample on agar and take the different sectors and get different isolates, are the odds pretty good that one of those isolates will be pretty potent? Or is it more likely that all the isolates are just average. I guess what I am asking is how rare and lucky do you have to be to find a very potent isolate?


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Re: Is this the way to get potent mushrooms? [Re: Karate_donkey]
    #14498172 - 05/23/11 09:18 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Well as 3n1gm nicely put it, when spores germinate Each spore has its own nucleus cell that if compatible with the other spores species while germinating and growing, will cross paths and join with those other cells, adding more DNA to the Mycelium that you see over all as big white beauty.

So Basically, if your working with a spore syringe, for a Trust shroomy vender, and noc up a jar of your fav grains or just a dish, your going to have idk, what? 100's of 1000's of spores intangoling.

from healthy examples that iv seen and read, this is pretty much what your shooting for.
http://www.thehawkseye.com/safrica/saf_agar.jpg

But iv also seen finer, "ropey" strans in gourmet mushrooms


Edited by Spector (05/23/11 09:19 AM)


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Re: Is this the way to get potent mushrooms? [Re: Spector]
    #14498379 - 05/23/11 10:35 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

I acutually checked one of my dishes a few mins ago that i just put sum spores on to keep before i run out of em(just a tad bit not alot AT all), swirled it around and left to colonize.
so karate, Ijust checked em and i found 30+ lil bearly noticeable white strans, you can acually see them running out of the spore.
these are all going to cross each other, if you were to very carefully cut just one of those spots out it would be isolated.
kinda get it?

but member you have to keep picking the traits you like to keep getting potent resulte. i doubt you'll get a patch that are all the same in potency.


Edited by Spector (05/23/11 10:36 AM)


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Offlinek00laid
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Re: Is this the way to get potent mushrooms? [Re: Spector]
    #14498389 - 05/23/11 10:38 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

spores are microscopic. you cant see them germinating :S

also @ op. eat more cubensis, or grow something stronger than cubensis.

thats how you trip harder.


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Re: Is this the way to get potent mushrooms? [Re: k00laid]
    #14498406 - 05/23/11 10:42 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

k00laid said:
spores are microscopic. you cant see them germinating :S

also @ op. eat more cubensis, or grow something stronger than cubensis.

thats how you trip harder.




ok, guess im tripping ballz then.
Or i must have 30 spots on my glasses that line up with my dish.
how does your post benefit this thread again?


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Offlinek00laid
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Re: Is this the way to get potent mushrooms? [Re: Spector]
    #14498637 - 05/23/11 11:47 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

i'll answer that when you answer how this thread contributes to these forums.

cuz i mean. this is the first thread about this.

isnt it??? :tard:


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Re: Is this the way to get potent mushrooms? [Re: k00laid]
    #14498671 - 05/23/11 11:56 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

what??? lmao
your right, this thread probably belongs in Advance mycology.
but saying this is the first thread or article about isolating strains or verietys of mushrooms mycelium... thats just too funny buddy.
Your turn now....
nvm this is not the time or place, but you.. lol you are a funny one.
so I doubt this is the first EVER thread. lol i got a good laugh out of that post there.


Edited by Spector (05/23/11 12:04 PM)


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Offlinek00laid
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Re: Is this the way to get potent mushrooms? [Re: Spector]
    #14498762 - 05/23/11 12:18 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

this doesn't belong in advanced mycology, yo.

to isolate for potency you isolate at random and test each isolate.

as said earlier in this thread.

what is your question again?


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Re: Is this the way to get potent mushrooms? [Re: k00laid]
    #14498801 - 05/23/11 12:24 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

it sounds like your now just trying to justify your self now.. "yo".
there was only 2 or 3 questions from the thread poster. the rest was a discussion "yo"
listen im not here to argue with you. if you think your right and want to keep replying have fun. but i would do sum research about the subject before i keep stating non-related statements trying to discredit ppl. have fun.


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Offlinek00laid
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Re: Is this the way to get potent mushrooms? [Re: Spector]
    #14498815 - 05/23/11 12:26 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

this thread comes up once a month. sometimes in advanced sometimes in mush cult.

it always gets moved to mush cult.
and always ends the same.
isolate at random.
test each. but the thing is. how does one test for potency?

once you have a reliable and replicable method. then this thread should be posted.


yo.


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Re: Is this the way to get potent mushrooms? [Re: k00laid]
    #14498857 - 05/23/11 12:36 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

you should start from the top, and read the hole post, lol.
first,according to you, This is the first post ever, then theres a post every month. which is it?

obviously you grow the isolated myc in question and keep cloning the traits you favore, its all in the post discussion, its been stated already.
I didnt post the thread, i just added what i have come up with so far, and it turned into a isolation discussion thread. "Yo"
i wouldnt lable that as mushroom cultivation until you place the strain into a grain jar. "yo"


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Offlinek00laid
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Re: Is this the way to get potent mushrooms? [Re: Spector]
    #14498861 - 05/23/11 12:37 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Spector said:

first,according to you, This is the first post ever,




sorry i'll try to remember my [sarcasm][/sarcasm] tags next time.

but how does one go about cloning for potency?


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Re: Is this the way to get potent mushrooms? [Re: k00laid]
    #14498876 - 05/23/11 12:41 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

look it up, there are a ton of articles on Selective Breeding concept.
or you could read this thread to get a basic idea, buddy.


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Offlinek00laid
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Re: Is this the way to get potent mushrooms? [Re: Spector]
    #14498884 - 05/23/11 12:42 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

>.> well ive been reading a lot. but i still can't figure out the best way to test a mushroom to see how many potencies it has in it.

have you figured it out yet?


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Re: Is this the way to get potent mushrooms? [Re: k00laid]
    #14498937 - 05/23/11 12:51 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

I have never heard of a way to measure how much potencies a mushroom contains, other then to eat it. lmao


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OfflineKarate_donkey
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Re: Is this the way to get potent mushrooms? [Re: Spector]
    #14500168 - 05/23/11 05:22 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

I dont have any problem eating them or finding people to eat them for me.
Ive never understood why people give so much attitude about answering a question. If the topic does not interest you or you dont feel like helping someone, you dont have to click on the link.

Now back to my question. I have watched rr's video on strain isolation so i understand the basic concept on how to do it. What i was wondering is how rare is it to get an isolate that is pretty potent? I have eaten shrooms that i have bought that were the bomb. I have grown mushrooms a few times now and they have been alright but nothing crazy all from ms. So if i put some spores on agar take samples of all the isolates, fruit them out, and eat them individualy will i most likly end up with one that is "the bomb"? or is it most likly gonna take more work than that? making different orginal samples with different isolates until i get lucky enough to find one?


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Re: Is this the way to get potent mushrooms? [Re: Karate_donkey]
    #14500933 - 05/23/11 07:55 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

id say it would take a while, its a trial and error situation. expecially when your just starting and wanting to grasp it. iv been reading all day, you should too and we can compare notes later!


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Re: Is this the way to get potent mushrooms? [Re: Spector]
    #14501132 - 05/23/11 08:38 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

i wanted to add more to this.
i would guess finding that perfect potent variety of cube would be hard, or rare as you put it, to sumone like us. maybe it is in general. i imagine if anyone that produces spores, or work with cubes alot would of already have found the holy grail of potent mushrooms, but they havent.
so if i were you i would pick out what most ppl concider the most potent. dont start off my putting spores on agar, i did that just so i dont have to buy more syringes. instead noc sum jars, find big fruits, (after all we are looking for the best traits) print them, lable them, and keep the cap you have printed labled also with the print, then do side by side test and see which ones were the most potent. keep thos prints and noc sum more jars up, and repeat until you start seeing the ropey pattern in your agar.
that is my strategy at least, im sure there are TONS of diff ways to do it tho. :grin:

Quote:

RogerRabbit said:
You isolate strains and save a master from each one.  After the harvest and testing of each and every isolate, you go back to your well marked strain masters in the refrigerator and get out the best ones to grow, while discarding the poor performers. Properly prepared master slants will last for years in the refrigerator, allowing you to continue to grow the same isolate.
RR




Quote:

RogerRabbit said:
That's correct.  I've used up an entire box of 500 petri dishes before on one sproreprint.  All strains have to be tested for the qualities you seek.  I'll leave the 'how' up to you.
RR




Quote:

RogerRabbit said:
Every time monokaryotic mycelium mates with a compatible hyphae, a 'strain' is born.  That is the definition of 'strain', not the name somebody wrote on the sporeprint.  This means that one swipe of spores from a print onto agar can easily yield dozens, if not hundreds of strains.
RR




ughh, im trying to find this awsome post i seen on isolating myc that RR comment on, it was exactly what your looking for. i seen it but earlier but didnt think of it much till now!!! gonna keep looking


Edited by Spector (05/23/11 08:56 PM)


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Re: Is this the way to get potent mushrooms? [Re: Spector]
    #14501300 - 05/23/11 09:03 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

RogerRabbit said:
Why not call them what they are?  Strains.  The definition of a strain is not the geographical area the original print was taken from.  That's marketing.

As for cloning vs strain isolation, they're not related.  By the time a substrate fruits, hundreds or perhaps thousands of strains have exchanged DNA, either weakening or strengthening the mass.  What you get is a 'heinz 57' that may or may not be that great because the weaker genes and the stronger genes(mycelium) have all combined.  An example would be mixed breed dogs.  We've all seen good examples and others that are dumber then hell.

Strain isolation on agar begins when the spores first start to germinate.  I make the first transfers as soon as I can see mycelium growing from the point of inoculation, long before sectoring can be detected.  By doing this, and by continuing to separate each individual growth, you can isolate mycelium prior to the process of anastomosis combining dikaryons into a single mass.

You don't isolate looking for one super rhizomorphic strain.  You isolate down to single sectors and then fruit out each one to determine the best performer.  When you transfer mycelium to a grain master, the original petri dish the mycelium was taken from is placed into a clean refrigerator.  By doing this, when you find the best performing strain, you then go back to your well marked petri dishes, thus your original P1 culture.  This petri dish can be used to inoculate a few test tube slants that can be incubated for a week, then placed in cold storage.  Whenever you need mycelium, a tiny piece the size of a grain of rice can be taken from the test tube and put on agar to grow out, while the test tube is placed back into the refrigerator.  These stored test tube cultures preserve the low P value of your isolated strain for years.

I have a complete video tek on strain isolation and master slant preparation and use already filmed.  I'll release it when I get the rest of the teks filmed, and editing completed.  Hopefully soon.
RR



im still looking but i figure id post all the good stuff i found for future seekers :smile:

Quote:

RogerRabbit said:
Quote:

Sci-Fi said:
Agree. A clone is also an isolate, single strain, mono-culture. Same thing. You may have derived it via cloning a mushroom, but it's still a isolated strain.

Two or more strains creating one mushroom, together, without joining or exchanging genetic material?
That sounds like science fiction.




You are incorrect, as is scatmanrav.

There can be dozens of strains conspiring to form a single fruiting body, without these strains combining into a single organism.  This is well known and established in mycology.  Paul Stamets reports isolating up to 200 organisms from a single fruit.  It's not science fiction, it's science.  Picture thousands of individual soldiers in an army going to battle.  Each is separate, yet conspire to form the coherent fighting force.

An isolate can either come from a pairing of two compatible hyphae from separate spores, or from mycelium that has later combined via anastomosis into a single organism.  There can be monokaryotic pairings with other mononucleate mycelium, dikaryotic pairings with other multinucleate mycelium, or mono-dikaryotic pairings.  You know you have an isolate when there is no more sectoring on agar.

To the OP, rhizomorphic mycelium is not the only characteristic we isolate for.  The important thing is to get to single sectors and then fruit out each strain.  This is the only proved way to find the best performing strains.  Many rhizomorphic strains will be poor performers, but some will blow your socks off.  The latter are the ones you keep, discarding the former.  The only way to know is to fruit each one.  It's a long process, but it's fun and how we come up with the best commercial strains.
RR



ok so you dont want to actually clone the mushrooms its self lol
sorry i mislead you there

Idk i dont think ill ever find that thread again, its lost in the archives of noob questions. lol
but this is all good info! very basic but easy to understand.


Edited by Spector (05/23/11 09:18 PM)


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Re: Is this the way to get potent mushrooms? [Re: Spector]
    #14501488 - 05/23/11 09:25 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

The most reliable way is to test every last shroom yourself, some in tea some fresh and some cracker. If anyone else gets any then you won't know how many potent shrooms grew so I would suggest casing a small tray with one quart of spawn/coir.

As for random isolates I don't know, I was under the impression you were supposed to look for sectors with roping growth that looks like it is twisting at the outside edge of the culture?

Will a difference in subs make a difference in potency, my coir sub flushes always seem more potent, lack of nutes make shrooms produce more actives?


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Re: Is this the way to get potent mushrooms? [Re: 3n1gm4]
    #14501888 - 05/23/11 10:49 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

3n1gm4 said:
As for random isolates I don't know, I was under the impression you were supposed to look for sectors with roping growth that looks like it is twisting at the outside edge of the culture?

Will a difference in subs make a difference in potency, my coir sub flushes always seem more potent, lack of nutes make shrooms produce more actives?




I Have heard alot that sub Has ALOT to do with potency! it seems logical. as you stated the nuts in the sub will be abundant, or mediocre. But dont quote me, i havent done side by side comparisons.
although!, if that theory is true, it would benifit to find a cube that
loves to soak up sum nuts and use it as a jump start to producing a potent fruit! its all a theory tho! (i hope ppl get ideas) :awesome:

but to looking for sectors i would say your correct,
Quote:

RogerRabbit said:
A sector is a strain.  A sector develops when compatible hyphae join to become a single organism, sharing genetics.  Strains can also join with other strains via dikaryotic pairings, known as anastomosis.  An isolate is a single strain, meaning you have transfered all the sectors to their own plates.

By taking tiny pieces of mycelium when I make transfers, I can often get to single sector isolates with three to four transfers.  The dish in the picture on the left below is the result of two or three transfers.  You can clearly see each sector by holding the dish up to the light.  Tiny cuts were made in each of these sectors to move that mycelium to new dishes, and each of those became a single sector isolate.  The right picture shows a dish that is still sectoring, and on the right is an isolated strain.  Note there is no sectoring at all.  Each and every isolate should be grown through the fruiting stage to determine the best performers.  Prior to doing so, a small amount of mycelium should be carefully labeled and placed into the refrigerator on a petri dish or culture slant.  This way, after fruiting, you can go back to an earlier stage in cell division for each future grow, capturing an aggressive strain.
RR






Edited by Spector (05/23/11 10:53 PM)


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Re: Is this the way to get potent mushrooms? [Re: Spector]
    #14501908 - 05/23/11 10:54 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

I would agree, but would taking a large fruit from the first or second flush, cloning and then testing the potency make it easier to isolate a potent strain? If it is potent then you know it will have potent strains in the clone culture right?


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Re: Is this the way to get potent mushrooms? [Re: 3n1gm4]
    #14502032 - 05/23/11 11:24 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

ok, so as far as i know, when you take a mushy and print it(or clone it, first time only as stated above.) you do look
for those sectors, so if you were to clone a mushroom that you later found out was very potent and then got 2-3 sectors out of it, you would isolate those sectors have master cultures for each, cultivate them, keep your fav sectors, discard the ones you disliked and do the process over with that master culture, trying to isolate sectors, with in that sector.

you can only clone it the first time, after you start isolating strains, you can no longer clone from that strain or variety of mushroom, why?
because the tissue holds all the diffrent traits, they will expand and overlay each other. as oppose to when you have already isolated sectors in dishes that are still have all those other traits, but there smaller and hinding with in that sector. thats what iv got from RR's quotes and most threads and articals iv read.
I love this shit lol
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Re: Is this the way to get potent mushrooms? [Re: Spector]
    #14502158 - 05/23/11 11:57 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

I thought you could clone any mushroom even one grown from a complete isolate?


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Re: Is this the way to get potent mushrooms? [Re: Spector]
    #14502170 - 05/24/11 12:00 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

You are still talking about doing this backwards. Start with spores, isolate single sector strains and fruit each to test. When you wait to clone desirable mushrooms the various "strains" have mixed already, diluting the characteristics of any great strains that were in the mix.


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Re: Is this the way to get potent mushrooms? [Re: wygram]
    #14502201 - 05/24/11 12:07 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

wygram said:
You are still talking about doing this backwards. Start with spores, isolate single sector strains and fruit each to test. When you wait to clone desirable mushrooms the various "strains" have mixed already, diluting the characteristics of any great strains that were in the mix.





could you go in a lil more in depth please?


Edited by Spector (05/24/11 12:23 AM)


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Re: Is this the way to get potent mushrooms? [Re: 3n1gm4]
    #14502202 - 05/24/11 12:07 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

3n1gm4 said:
The most reliable way is to test every last shroom yourself, some in tea some fresh and some cracker. If anyone else gets any then you won't know how many potent shrooms grew so I would suggest casing a small tray with one quart of spawn/coir.




Honestly, your trip will depends of lots of external parameters. What you eat, how is your mood, how tired you are for example. That is nearly impossible to test shrooms one by one by eating them and then be sure one of them is stronger. Thats pure myth.

I 100% agree with Koolaid about what he said. Want an harder trip, then eat more shrooms.


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Re: Is this the way to get potent mushrooms? [Re: wygram]
    #14502218 - 05/24/11 12:11 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

wygram said:
You are still talking about doing this backwards. Start with spores, isolate single sector strains and fruit each to test. When you wait to clone desirable mushrooms the various "strains" have mixed already, diluting the characteristics of any great strains that were in the mix.




Okay TYVM, very good to the point answer that I was looking for. It is amazing how a few simple words can open your eyes and make you understand the complex things others have said.:awesomenod::thumbup: for wygram!


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Edited by 3n1gm4 (05/24/11 12:11 AM)


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Re: Is this the way to get potent mushrooms? [Re: 3n1gm4]
    #14502230 - 05/24/11 12:15 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

I am looking for good visuals, so I can watch this on the 42" HDTV fullscreen


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Re: Is this the way to get potent mushrooms? [Re: mill]
    #14502234 - 05/24/11 12:15 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

mill said:
Quote:

3n1gm4 said:
The most reliable way is to test every last shroom yourself, some in tea some fresh and some cracker. If anyone else gets any then you won't know how many potent shrooms grew so I would suggest casing a small tray with one quart of spawn/coir.




Honestly, your trip will depends of lots of external parameters. What you eat, how is your mood, how tired you are for example. That is nearly impossible to test shrooms one by one by eating them and then be sure one of them is stronger. Thats pure myth.

I 100% agree with Koolaid about what he said. Want an harder trip, then eat more shrooms.




im not disagreeing with you, but yes, you could do it that way and keep it simple and passive. or you could go in deeper and invest sum time for future Grows. this discussion doesnt have to be just about potency, tho it is what the main poster was asking,it could be for easer highter yields, or Bigger,denser fruits ect.



Quote:

Roadkill said:
Quote:

Ok, who here isolates strains, and keeps master slants/cultures?




I do

Quote:

Do you find it much easier to get consitent results?




do I really have to answer this?
what do you think?

Quote:

I have only done multispore and some agar work, but never isolated and stored master cultures.




most people probably don't.
but if they want better fruits, better flushes and better yeilds...
they should.

Quote:

Do you find it worthwhile?




errrrrrr yeah!~


:grin:


tc




Edited by Spector (05/24/11 12:31 AM)


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Re: Is this the way to get potent mushrooms? [Re: 3n1gm4]
    #14502244 - 05/24/11 12:17 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

3n1gm4 said:
Quote:

wygram said:
You are still talking about doing this backwards. Start with spores, isolate single sector strains and fruit each to test. When you wait to clone desirable mushrooms the various "strains" have mixed already, diluting the characteristics of any great strains that were in the mix.




Okay TYVM, very good to the point answer that I was looking for. It is amazing how a few simple words can open your eyes and make you understand the complex things others have said.:awesomenod::thumbup: for wygram!



lol, the knowledge!!! the ppowweerrrrr! eerrrrraahhh!!!


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Re: Is this the way to get potent mushrooms? [Re: Spector]
    #14502252 - 05/24/11 12:19 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

The person that told me the compatible strains from a clone would be less and easier to isolate was BSing me.


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Re: Is this the way to get potent mushrooms? [Re: Spector]
    #14502259 - 05/24/11 12:21 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Spector said:
could you go in a lil more in depth please?



When you start spores the genetic pool contains great, decent and crappy genes. As the spores grow they exchange genetic material between the various individual "strains." In the time the mycelium grows on the grain it combines great genetics with bad ones. After spawning, as the mycelium colonizes the substrate it combines great genetics with bad ones. By the time you see fruits, they are composed of strains that are an average of what you started with.

Starting with spores and isolating quickly before they have too much time to mix, gives you strains that have more variety and greater difference between each other. Many will be crappy, but a few will be outstanding. Performing the isolations early also lets you store fresh young mycelium in stasis as you test each isolate, allowing you to then go back and get fresh fast growing mycelium to work with.


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Re: Is this the way to get potent mushrooms? [Re: wygram]
    #14502284 - 05/24/11 12:26 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

ok cool, yea thats basically what we've been discussing thru the thread. but you summed it up great!


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Re: Is this the way to get potent mushrooms? [Re: Spector]
    #14502536 - 05/24/11 01:28 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

I have a question regarding a possibility of potency measure without the use of chromatography....  We all know that psilocin oxidizes and turns blue.  I've noticed that on some of the stronger mushies I've had, my mouth turns black as I chew.  Now, since psilocin is the active we're looking for, and it turns blue when oxidized.  What if someone took a fixed size sample of a fruit, under a specific atmosphere, couldn't you gauge psilocin content by discoloration over a fixed period of time?  Just a thought.


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Re: Is this the way to get potent mushrooms? [Re: bbox244]
    #14502566 - 05/24/11 01:36 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

My mouth turns black when I eat my print caps too.


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Re: Is this the way to get potent mushrooms? [Re: 3n1gm4]
    #14502790 - 05/24/11 03:29 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Psilocybin and psilocin levels in twenty species from seven genera of wild mushrooms in the Pacific Northwest, USA
MW Beug… - Journal of Ethnopharmacology, 1982 - Elsevier

... Recreational users of hallucinogenic mushrooms sometimes regard the intensity of
bluing as a guide to psilocybin and psilocin levels, but we could find no correlation
between degree of bluing and either psilocybin or psilo- cin levels. ...


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Re: Is this the way to get potent mushrooms? [Re: wygram]
    #14502804 - 05/24/11 03:41 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Someone did a study on the active amounts dried and fresh, someone should do a study on the amounts in specific sub-strains using the same alcohol extraction and measure the levels of the actives from race/variety/strains dry/wet. Hurry and get started so I can read it in a few years.:awesomenod::thumbup::mushroomgrow::super:


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Re: Is this the way to get potent mushrooms? [Re: mill]
    #14503294 - 05/24/11 08:12 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

3n1gm4 said:
Someone did a study on the active amounts dried and fresh, someone should do a study on the amounts in specific sub-strains using the same alcohol extraction and measure the levels of the actives from race/variety/strains dry/wet. Hurry and get started so I can read it in a few years.:awesomenod::thumbup::mushroomgrow::super:




In a nation that common ppl do things like that on there own, would be a nation were We didnt elect president bush for two terms. Or where our #1 cause of death was not a Choice, but an addiction.

Quote:

mill said:
I 100% agree with Koolaid about what he said. Want an harder trip, then eat more shrooms.




not trying to insult you mill, just quoting :awelol:


But to add to Bbox comment, i would say thats a good idea. I would also say if thats the case in measuring potency then the scale could be set as blueing at Cubic centimeter, or Area. does that make sense to you guys?


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Re: Is this the way to get potent mushrooms? [Re: Spector]
    #14503384 - 05/24/11 08:45 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

wygram said:
Psilocybin and psilocin levels in twenty species from seven genera of wild mushrooms in the Pacific Northwest, USA
MW Beug… - Journal of Ethnopharmacology, 1982 - Elsevier

... Recreational users of hallucinogenic mushrooms sometimes regard the intensity of
bluing as a guide to psilocybin and psilocin levels, but we could find no correlation
between degree of bluing and either psilocybin or psilo- cin levels. ...



Quote:

Spector said:
if thats the case in measuring potency then the scale could be set as blueing at Cubic centimeter, or Area. does that make sense to you guys?




NO BECAUSE BLUEING HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH POTENCY.

did you read this whole thread?


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Re: Is this the way to get potent mushrooms? [Re: k00laid]
    #14503436 - 05/24/11 09:09 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

i guess not there skippy.

you still on your mission to
catch me when im down? lol

but like you out lined in bold letters
that was in 1982, is there anything new
on bluing?


Edited by Spector (05/24/11 09:11 AM)


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Re: Is this the way to get potent mushrooms? [Re: bbox244]
    #14503443 - 05/24/11 09:11 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

bbox244 said:
We all know that psilocin oxidizes and turns blue. Now, since psilocin is the active we're looking for, and it turns blue when oxidized.  What if someone took a fixed size sample of a fruit, under a specific atmosphere, couldn't you gauge psilocin content by discoloration over a fixed period of time?




no im on a mission to correct all of this bullshit information.

people will be coming to this thread through the search engine. and then they see this bs.

and then they see a TC post that its bullshit

and then they see someone post like the TC didnt say anything.

mixed signals bro. :shrug: we want good information on these boards.


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Re: Is this the way to get potent mushrooms? [Re: k00laid]
    #14503453 - 05/24/11 09:13 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

yea, and your packed full of it.
funny that you state its to post good info,
but only post when I happend to mis-read or
state sumthing incorrectly.

oh and if you just put sumtime into reading
the post, you'll see that iv Quoted TC's that
verified sum, if not most of our discussion,
and clarified anything in question.
you can keep to just looking over our post
for typos and misspellings now, lol


Edited by Spector (05/24/11 09:17 AM)


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Re: Is this the way to get potent mushrooms? [Re: Spector]
    #14503460 - 05/24/11 09:16 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

i try to post good info. but mostly i correct bad info.
:/ isolating for potency is isolating at random.

and you cant test for potency besides eating them.

and its (in my opinion) impossible to use subjective test subjects to determine potency.

and you certainly cannot determine it by how blue your fruit is.


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Re: Is this the way to get potent mushrooms? [Re: k00laid]
    #14503471 - 05/24/11 09:21 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

i added on to my post before yours. here ill quote it for ya.
Quote:

Spector said:

oh and if you just put sumtime into reading
the post, you'll see that iv Quoted TC's that
verified sum, if not most of our discussion,
and clarified anything in question.
you can keep to just looking over our post
for typos and misspellings now, lol



but for real this convo adds nothing to this thread,
so lets just leave it at this. =]


Edited by Spector (05/24/11 09:21 AM)


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Re: Is this the way to get potent mushrooms? [Re: Spector]
    #14503484 - 05/24/11 09:26 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

no one has verified anything about blue = psilocin oxidizing.

what about species of mushrooms that bruise blue but contain absolutely NO psilocin or psilocybin?


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Re: Is this the way to get potent mushrooms? [Re: Spector]
    #14503493 - 05/24/11 09:28 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

OP- If you are truly interested in hunting down the most potent isolates, i would just simply eat 95% of the fruit body to "test" it out, and leave the other 5% to dry out. after you have determined the most potent, take the dried piece and start it on agar.
good luck, a very nice experiment indeed!


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Re: Is this the way to get potent mushrooms? [Re: k00laid]
    #14503519 - 05/24/11 09:37 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

k00laid said:
no one has verified anything about blue = psilocin oxidizing.

what about species of mushrooms that bruise blue but contain absolutely NO psilocin or psilocybin?




that was a quick question from sumbody who had one, lmao
it was only briefly discussed recently. i was talkin about
everything before that. it was an quick idea, anything else?
lmao!


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Re: Is this the way to get potent mushrooms? [Re: Spector]
    #14505116 - 05/24/11 03:35 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

thanks guys with this thread and the other reading ive been doing i have learned alot.
one more quick question. when trying to get a good isolate, would a clone be a good place to start instead of spores on agar. correct me if im wrong but if i cloned to agar would i not start out with less isolates making it a little easier. Would I not already know that all the isolates from the clone would be fruiters?


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Re: Is this the way to get potent mushrooms? [Re: Karate_donkey]
    #14505453 - 05/24/11 04:52 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

its definitely possible to only have one isolate when cloning a piece of tissue, but it is also possible to have several sub-species, but after growing it out a few times growing them out and repeating the steps you will quickly end up with a better and more stable isolate.


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Re: Is this the way to get potent mushrooms? [Re: Spector]
    #14505736 - 05/24/11 05:38 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

RogerRabbit said:
Quote:

Sci-Fi said:
Agree. A clone is also an isolate, single strain, mono-culture. Same thing. You may have derived it via cloning a mushroom, but it's still a isolated strain.

Two or more strains creating one mushroom, together, without joining or exchanging genetic material?
That sounds like science fiction.




You are incorrect, as is scatmanrav.

There can be dozens of strains conspiring to form a single fruiting body, without these strains combining into a single organism.  This is well known and established in mycology.  Paul Stamets reports isolating up to 200 organisms from a single fruit.  It's not science fiction, it's science.  Picture thousands of individual soldiers in an army going to battle.  Each is separate, yet conspire to form the coherent fighting force.

An isolate can either come from a pairing of two compatible hyphae from separate spores, or from mycelium that has later combined via anastomosis into a single organism.  There can be monokaryotic pairings with other mononucleate mycelium, dikaryotic pairings with other multinucleate mycelium, or mono-dikaryotic pairings.  You know you have an isolate when there is no more sectoring on agar.

To the OP, rhizomorphic mycelium is not the only characteristic we isolate for.  The important thing is to get to single sectors and then fruit out each strain.  This is the only proved way to find the best performing strains.  Many rhizomorphic strains will be poor performers, but some will blow your socks off.  The latter are the ones you keep, discarding the former.  The only way to know is to fruit each one.  It's a long process, but it's fun and how we come up with the best commercial strains.
RR



So you can clone, in the beginning. but once you start Isolating strains sectors, you start using em as master cultures to cultivate fruits. keep the ones you like and discard the ones you dont. you keep isolating off that master culture. you dont clone off the fruits you've cultivated from that master, you can... but the master Culture already contains those traits in the sector you have stored. cloning would be like throw ur neatly folded clothes on the floor, as an example, were as sectors, with-in that master sector are neat and clean. So if you get to a point were you cant isolate off a sector anymore that is when its truely isolated, and cloning off that truely isolated sector, maybe cause othere sectors, or just mix everything up again. yea? This may sound confusing cuz i use isolate and sectors alot. but read, and re-read it. or maybe sumone get clarify,


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Re: Is this the way to get potent mushrooms? [Re: Spector]
    #14505765 - 05/24/11 05:46 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

yep you got the right idea. either way, on the hunt to a more potent mushroom your going to be doing a lot of work w/ petri dishes. might as well start them from spores so you can find the greatest diversity and see the health of the culture from spore to fruit.


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Edited by floatindownsligo (05/24/11 05:47 PM)


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