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Invisibleife
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jars
    #14479159 - 05/19/11 03:12 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

So I have seen some teks showing puttings unsoaked/cooked grains with water and verm. Then pcing this which in turn ends ups soaking and cooking the grains. I haven't seen any negatives to this? I am trying to figure out a time shortener of the soaking and mixing step if possible? Any negatives to be concerned about?

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InvisibleTangich

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Re: jars [Re: ife]
    #14479277 - 05/19/11 03:33 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Soaking in water germinates bacterial endospores, thus making them easier to kill.
In general, optimal water content is 1:2 water to grain ratio by volume. If you're going to PC them without soaking and cooking, you should still leave them at 30*C for several hours.

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InvisibleMonkeyKnifeFight
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Re: jars [Re: Tangich]
    #14479309 - 05/19/11 03:40 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

I wouldn't put verm in with grain spawn.

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Invisibleife
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Re: jars [Re: MonkeyKnifeFight]
    #14479650 - 05/19/11 04:46 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

hrmmm..

well there is that.
Guess that doesn't speed up the process.

i could take the verm out but I have found by adding verm in the same content as brf, only using whole grains, the water mixture in my jars evens out quite smoothly. Also they come out of the jars much easier and will crumble in my hands much easier to just the right point. Seems to colonize quicker too cause of the water content being even throughout and a lot less stalled jars if any. no more mushy bottoms. bonus round.

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InvisibleMonkeyKnifeFight
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Re: jars [Re: ife]
    #14480335 - 05/19/11 06:52 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

I don't want to knock it if it works for you but it seems like you may just be overcooking your grains.  When grains are prepared nicely they should come out of the PC looking basically dry on the outside.  And when you shake them they should sound like a maraca. 

Of course depending on the species it can be difficult to get the spawn out of the jar.  If you let reishi go too long it won't matter if it's 100% verm it'll be totally stuck.

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Invisibleife
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Re: jars [Re: MonkeyKnifeFight]
    #14480479 - 05/19/11 07:23 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

hrmm I know I do have a tendency to over cook. I never did go back and reexamine that. Thank you. I just ended up looking for compensations. heh.

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OfflineNSF
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Re: jars [Re: ife]
    #14480922 - 05/19/11 08:46 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

I prepare my grain that way, just adding the water to the grains with no pre soak.  I use wheat and i don't even pre rinse (but that may change.  There's varying qualities and cleanliness of grain).

The goal is to end up between 49 and 51% water content.  Although it's labour intensive i weigh an empty PP bottle, i add grain, weigh it, subtract the bottle weight and add the same weight of hot water as the grain, plus 10% (for steam loss).  I then add a little lime and gypsum again as a weight ratio, put a lid on and weigh again.  PC making sure bottles are entirely out of the water and i PC for less time than i would a substrate bag.  When cool i weigh again to see just how much mass was lost as steam.

Now that i have some trial figures i know how much extra water to add (10%) to end up at 50% water at the end.

The grains are all loose and dry at the end.


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InvisibleMonkeyKnifeFight
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Re: jars [Re: NSF]
    #14481693 - 05/19/11 10:58 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Wow no I do grain much simpler with consistent results.  I:

Realize: 'I have a bunch of empty jars'
Put a bowl full of rye into a big pot covered with water (bowl = 6 quart jars worth of rye)
Next day after work I drain the grain, add fresh water and simmer it with some gypsum till I see the very first grains exploding (15-30 minutes)
Drain in colander and let drain until grain cools and steams off.  Surface should look dry.  Stirring helps.
Fill jars and PC

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OfflineNSF
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Re: jars [Re: MonkeyKnifeFight]
    #14482310 - 05/20/11 01:33 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

I only have to do the weights and measures for a couple of jars any time i got a new batch of grain. 

Ok not true, i do gun for a 1-1 ratio of grain weight to water weight.


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OfflineRogerRabbitM
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Re: jars [Re: NSF]
    #14482929 - 05/20/11 06:05 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

The old method we used for decades was to simply fill a quart jar half way with dry grains. 
Add water just until it reaches the top of the grains.  Add a pinch of gypsum, and pressure cook for 90 minutes.

That works, but there's far better methods, and don't worry about 'wasting' time preparing grains for best results.  The time you spend rinsing, boiling, drying etc., pays off with time you save later by faster colonization, less chance of contaminants, easy shaking, and healthier mycelium.
RR


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Invisibleife
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Re: jars [Re: RogerRabbit]
    #14483225 - 05/20/11 07:51 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

NSF - labor intensive is bad imho. I have a bad lower back and repetetive strain injury in both of my wrists from all the years working in IT. So anything labor intensive is what I am trying to shorten without making my job tougher on the backend like RR was making reference too. I think part of my frustration though might be my shared workspace and not being able to sprawl out as much as I would like and need. Working on designing custom shelving and or other tools to hopefully alleviate this problem. For example, When I do a batch of grains I might be doing 6-9 strainers full in increments of maybe 3, but for draining space I only have 2 slots which increases drain and strain time. Total pita. But its the space I currently have. Working to buy more space. I will probably build some draining contraption so I can drain 9+ strainers at once. And buy a bigger soaking/cooking pot. I know I am going to have to address even simple jar opening because of my RSI.

MonkeyKnifeFight - That's how I started out but I was getting too much mushed jars. And so brf seemed to have solved that problem so I tried that with whole grains + verm. Didn't have to worry about exploding kernels cause with the verm mixed in it added the fluff and greatly increased the amount of jars for the money paid. Right now wbs and long grain brown rice are the cheapest for me. Looking into fixing that. I did try wbs with a small 1 cm layer of verm on the bottom of jars to address the mush problem. This seemed to greatly solve the issue too. Maybe I will go back to wbs. Waiting to hear back from a feed store about finding some rye or something cheaper. Most bags I have seen are too expensive - $45+ compared to what I have heard some of ya'll list for the prices ya'll are paying. WBS is slightly less than half that for a 40 lb.

RR - Easy shaking? I wish I could find easy shaking. I might be too short on my draining stage. And what I am encountering maybe why I have heard some people speak bad about using rice. But even the WBS was getting mush bottoms. But like I said I am probably too short on my draining stage. I've had some draining for hours. I dunno. I am going to have to take a closer look at that I think. Maybe drain over night and go back to wbs.

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OfflineNSF
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Re: jars [Re: ife]
    #14485461 - 05/20/11 05:06 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

I had the same issue.  The first times i cooked grain (wheat not rye berries) i had plugged bottoms and bursts grains.  Maybe i boiled too long or wheat just needs less?? 

Another thing i found, which i mentioned was to make sure you get your jars out of the water in the PC, only let steam heat them.  This made for less sticky grain.


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Invisibleife
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Re: jars [Re: NSF]
    #14492921 - 05/22/11 07:13 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

jars out of the water huh? that much of a difference? hmm I have yet to see any ready made things that would do this. and using lids just rusts the lids quicker.

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OfflineNSF
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Re: jars [Re: ife]
    #14492952 - 05/22/11 07:36 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

I've got two trivets and two polypropylene grids, cut into circles, from milk crates.  I figure if they are in the water they are stewing as the PC comes to temp. If they are only being heated by steam then they are cooking for less time (kinda).


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