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OfflineEllis Dee
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Moscow Times Editorial on the War
    #1448993 - 04/11/03 09:02 AM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Thursday, Apr. 10, 2003. Page 9

The Elite's Feeling the Heat

By Pavel Felgenhauer

As the war in Iraq winds to its inevitable end, uneasy reflections are taking over Russia's political and military elite. No one in Moscow ever seriously believed that Saddam Hussein might indeed "defeat" the allied forces. But the speed and decisiveness of the offensive has bewildered many.

Russian generals were expecting another prolonged so-called non-contact war, like the one against Yugoslavia in 1999, in Afghanistan in 2001 or the first gulf war in 1991, when a four-day ground offensive was preceded by a 39-day air bombardment. It was believed that the Americans were afraid of close hand-to-hand encounters, they would not tolerate the inevitable casualties, and that in the final analysis they were cowards who relied on technical superiority.

In the first week of the war, allied forces rapidly fanned out of Kuwait, occupied most of southern Iraq and moved deep into the central part of the country without prolonged preliminary air bombardment. This successful blitz caused shock in Moscow. Then came news of the first U.S. casualties and prisoners, of severe sandstorms hampering movement, of increased Iraqi attacks and an overall pause in the offensive.

As the allies' push into Iraq seemed to falter, many hearts in Moscow and in Europe rejoiced. In a poll taken in late March, 52 percent of Russians were of the opinion that the U.S.-led military action in Iraq was unsuccessful; 58 percent believed it would be a long war; 35 percent were convinced the United States would win in the end, while 33 percent assumed Iraq would prevail.

Last week it was disclosed that two retired three-star generals -- Vladislav Achalov (a former paratrooper and specialist in urban warfare) and Igor Maltsev (a specialist in air defense) -- visited Baghdad recently and were awarded medals by Hussein. The awards were handed out by Iraqi Defense Minister Sultan Khashim Akhmed.

It was reported that the retired generals helped Hussein prepare a war plan to defeat the Americans. Achalov confirmed he was in Baghdad just before the war and received medals from Hussein for services rendered. He also told journalists that the defense of Baghdad was well organized, U.S. tanks would be burned if they enter the city and U.S. infantry would be slaughtered. According to Achalov, the only way the allies could ever take Baghdad and other Iraqi cities was to raze them to the ground by carpet bombing.

Last week, Defense Minister Sergei Ivanov echoed Achalov's opinion: "If the Americans continue to fight accurately, avoiding high casualties, the outcome is uncertain. If the Americans begin carpet bombing, Iraq will be defeated." Ivanov also announced that the Defense Ministry was attentively studying the war in order to learn how to build a stronger Russian army.

It seems that up to now the result of the study has been negative. It would appear that Russian generals and Ivanov assume it's the Americans that should be learning from them how to flatten cities -- the way our military destroyed the Chechen capital, Grozny.

Many Russian generals truly believe that a bombing campaign that leaves some buildings still standing is ineffective. Precision-guided munitions are widely considered to be costly pranks -- not real weapons. In Chechnya, we tried to use some of these gadgets, but they did not work, as most Russian officers and men have not been trained in how to use the limited number of modern weapons our military inherited from the Soviet armed forces.

The worst possible outcome of the war in Iraq for the Russian military is a swift allied victory with relatively low casualties. Already many in Russia are beginning to ask why our forces are so ineffective compared to the Brits and Americans; and why the two battles to take Grozny in 1995 and 2000 each took more than a month to complete, with more that 5,000 Russian soldiers killed and tens of thousands wounded in both engagements, given that Grozny is one tenth the size of Baghdad.

The Russian media is generally avoiding the hard questions and serving up anti-American propaganda instead. It is alleged that the U.S. government is "concealing casualties" (like its Russian counterpart), and that hundreds if not thousands of U.S. soldiers have already been killed. Maybe this deceit will become the main semi-official excuse for disregarding the allied victory.

Or perhaps our generals who do not want to build a modern post-Soviet military will come up with some other propaganda ploy.


Pavel Felgenhauer is an independent defense analyst.


--------------------
"If the foundations be destroyed, what can the righteous do."-King Solomon

And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,


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Offlinemntlfngrs
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Re: Moscow Times Editorial on the War [Re: Ellis Dee]
    #1450095 - 04/11/03 04:27 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

"the defense of Baghdad was well organized, U.S. tanks would be burned if they enter the city and U.S. infantry would be slaughtered."

So that is where the mis-information minister was getting his information.


Silly Russians :laugh:


--------------------
Be all and you'll be to end all


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Anonymous

Re: Moscow Times Editorial on the War [Re: mntlfngrs]
    #1450119 - 04/11/03 04:36 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Russians are stupid.


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InvisibleInnvertigo
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Re: Moscow Times Editorial on the War [Re: Ellis Dee]
    #1450132 - 04/11/03 04:39 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

52 percent of Russians were of the opinion that the U.S.-led military action in Iraq was unsuccessful; 58 percent believed it would be a long war; 35 percent were convinced the United States would win in the end, while 33 percent assumed Iraq would prevail.




52+58+35+33 = 178%

wow, and i thought it was supposed to add up to 100% in these kinds of polls. :grin:


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson


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OfflineAzmodeus
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Re: Moscow Times Editorial on the War [Re: Innvertigo]
    #1450284 - 04/11/03 05:33 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

See post above yours.


--------------------
"Know your Body - Know your Mind - Know your Substance - Know your Source.

Lest we forget. "


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Anonymous

Re: Moscow Times Editorial on the War [Re: Innvertigo]
    #1450476 - 04/11/03 07:08 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

52+58+35+33 = 178%

well... they're not exclusive conditions. they could have asked, "do you think the american's war is unsuccessful?", "do you think it will be a long war?" and "do you think "iraq will win?".

you could answer "yes" to all three questions...  as it turns out, 52% answered "yes" to the first one, 58% answered "yes" to the second one, and 35% answered "yes" to the third one. and a third of them felt that the US would win...

now... if for the last two items the total was above 100%, then there'd be something wrong. "iraq winning" and "america winning" are mutually exclusive events.

americans are stupid  :tongue:


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Offlinemntlfngrs
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Re: Moscow Times Editorial on the War [Re: ]
    #1450490 - 04/11/03 07:12 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Pretty sure vert knew that and was joking.


--------------------
Be all and you'll be to end all


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Anonymous

Re: Moscow Times Editorial on the War [Re: mntlfngrs]
    #1450493 - 04/11/03 07:14 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

yeah probably. i was just looking for an excuse to post about rhetoric and try to look smart.  :cool:


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InvisibleInnvertigo
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Re: Moscow Times Editorial on the War [Re: ]
    #1450526 - 04/11/03 07:28 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

i put the damn smiley face behind my post.

WHAT DO YOU PEOPLE WANT!!!!!!! :mad: :mad: :mad:








oh yeah  :grin:


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson


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Offlineshroominbloom
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Re: Moscow Times Editorial on the War [Re: ]
    #1450530 - 04/11/03 07:31 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Excellent!!

Edit -- Oops, that reply was supposed to be to the original poster.


--------------------
ha


Edited by shroominbloom (04/11/03 07:32 PM)


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InvisibleEvolving
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Re: Moscow Times Editorial on the War [Re: ]
    #1450556 - 04/11/03 07:45 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Russians are stupid.



Not all of them. The smart ones emigrated to America.


--------------------
To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.


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Offlinemntlfngrs
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Re: Moscow Times Editorial on the War [Re: Evolving]
    #1450599 - 04/11/03 08:09 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

They certainly didn't go to Iraq to made the war plan. (the smart ones)


--------------------
Be all and you'll be to end all


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Anonymous

Re: Moscow Times Editorial on the War [Re: mntlfngrs]
    #1450656 - 04/11/03 08:45 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

not that it wouldve mattered if they had, eh


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Offlinemntlfngrs
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Re: Moscow Times Editorial on the War [Re: ]
    #1450666 - 04/11/03 08:49 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

good point. Maybe it was the smart ones.


--------------------
Be all and you'll be to end all


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OfflineMurex
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Re: Moscow Times Editorial on the War [Re: Ellis Dee]
    #1451301 - 04/12/03 12:46 AM (13 years, 7 months ago)

hundreds if not thousands of U.S. soldiers have already been killed.

I doubt Amerika has covered it up (or any other country reporting from Iraq). We'll just have to see how many troops actually come back home. I can't see how Iraqi troops with AKs could destroy tanks or stealth bombers.


--------------------
What if everything around you
Isn't quite as it seems?
What if all the world you think you know,
Is an elaborate dream?
And if you look at your reflection,
Is it all you want it to be?



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Invisibledownforpot
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Re: Moscow Times Editorial on the War [Re: Murex]
    #1451413 - 04/12/03 01:13 AM (13 years, 7 months ago)

RUSSIANS ARE STUPID? You fuckin faggot, russian schools are 10 times harder than american, i had my ass learning times tables in 1st grade mother fucker, fuck eat my dick bitch. Your ass would be out on the streets, russias dont waste their time on stupid mother fuckers that dont want to learn, ok, had to get that out.


--------------------



http://www.myspace.com/4th25


"And I don't care if he was handcuffed
Then shot in his head
All I know is dead bodies
Can't fuck with me again"


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OfflineMurex
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Re: Moscow Times Editorial on the War [Re: downforpot]
    #1451419 - 04/12/03 01:15 AM (13 years, 7 months ago)

I didn't say Russians were stupid you idiot.


--------------------
What if everything around you
Isn't quite as it seems?
What if all the world you think you know,
Is an elaborate dream?
And if you look at your reflection,
Is it all you want it to be?



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Invisibledownforpot
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Re: Moscow Times Editorial on the War [Re: Murex]
    #1451428 - 04/12/03 01:19 AM (13 years, 7 months ago)

not you, the other mother fucker.


--------------------



http://www.myspace.com/4th25


"And I don't care if he was handcuffed
Then shot in his head
All I know is dead bodies
Can't fuck with me again"


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OfflineMurex
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Re: Moscow Times Editorial on the War [Re: downforpot]
    #1451526 - 04/12/03 02:02 AM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Then next time, reply to the one you are addressing.


--------------------
What if everything around you
Isn't quite as it seems?
What if all the world you think you know,
Is an elaborate dream?
And if you look at your reflection,
Is it all you want it to be?



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OfflineBaby_Hitler
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Re: Moscow Times Editorial on the War [Re: downforpot]
    #1451679 - 04/11/03 08:39 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Stupid Russians trying to teach first graders multiplication.

Apparently the teachers arent very smart either.


--------------------


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