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Offlinesaxcidjazz
Male


Registered: 06/02/09
Posts: 1,831
Last seen: 9 years, 4 months
Re: My dirty little psychedelic drug habit [Re: joemolloy]
    #14486313 - 05/20/11 08:04 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

joemolloy said:
Quote:

maestroelite said:
Cigarettes, alcohol and marijuana are all way more readily accessible than other drugs too.  What's your point?




All drugs are readily accessible.  You know what the point is, connect the dots, take the blinders off. 

Both sides of the Gateway Theory have been heavily researched and after considering many of the studies it seems obvious to me that softer drug use often leads to harder drug use.  Deny it all you want and hope my asshole opinion is wrong because if I am not, you may be more fucked than you imagine.




I really don't think they are.  You're unlikely to find LSD for example until you start getting into the drug culture a bit, usually through smoking weed.  Lots of people on here complain about it not even existing.  I've known people that took psychedelics as one of their first drug experiences and it wasn't a big deal.  To me, figuring out that you like drugs makes you want to try more drugs.  Which ones depend on how much/what you're willing to risk.  :shrug:  I fail to see how psychedelics could lead to harder drug use.  If anything on my comedowns I want to stop using all drugs and just take care of my body.  If anything psychedelics tend to diminish the desire to use hard drugs.

I may be more fucked?  Please explain.  I've been at this game of substance for a while now and taken plenty of time off when I need to and give my real world stuff priority.

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Invisiblejoemolloy
DMT is Bullshit


Registered: 04/12/09
Posts: 6,525
Re: My dirty little psychedelic drug habit [Re: saxcidjazz]
    #14486672 - 05/20/11 09:09 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

maestroelite said:
I may be more fucked?  Please explain.  I've been at this game of substance for a while now and taken plenty of time off when I need to and give my real world stuff priority.




If you are wrong and the Gateway Theory is applicable to many or most drug use trajectories, the odds that you will follow the path from psychedelics to harder drugs may be increased.  In that scenario you would be fucked, unless you can successfully navigate the waters of hard drug use.  I have hope for you though because you've been at this game for a while.


--------------------
Don't PM me with bullshit.  I don't sell or trade cactus and I don't know where you can get any, other than your mother's ass.

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Invisiblejoemolloy
DMT is Bullshit


Registered: 04/12/09
Posts: 6,525
Re: My dirty little psychedelic drug habit [Re: Vsnares.Zappa]
    #14486714 - 05/20/11 09:17 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Vsnares.Zappa said:
Joe , you have to admit that the evolution of your critical thinking/consciousness is intimatly tied to your drug use.To say that the  delusional thought patterns are detrimental is debatable. They  can shed a light on habitual thought patterns and give you a better understanding of your own mind.





I think I was living in a psychedelic cloud for two years.  I thought I was liberated from the shackles of 21st century, capitalist, democratic, Judeo-Christian thought.  Instead I was shackled by a powerful drug and incorporating the likes of Terence Mckenna, Alan Watts, and the rest of the psychedelic gurus into my mental life.  I was eagerly devouring all of the psychedelic literature and reading all of the forums absorbing this new world and its culture.  I traded one prison for another.  If I am a slave, I'd rather not be a slave to a drug.  I'd rather deal with my reality using my own intelligence and gifts rather than have them distorted and altered by chemicals.  Psychedelics never sharpened or helped me hone my thinking abilities, sober reflection did that.


--------------------
Don't PM me with bullshit.  I don't sell or trade cactus and I don't know where you can get any, other than your mother's ass.

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Invisible1983
Stranger

Registered: 04/14/11
Posts: 130
Re: My dirty little psychedelic drug habit [Re: joemolloy]
    #14486739 - 05/20/11 09:23 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

joemolloy said:
Quote:

maestroelite said:
I may be more fucked?  Please explain.  I've been at this game of substance for a while now and taken plenty of time off when I need to and give my real world stuff priority.




If you are wrong and the Gateway Theory is applicable to many or most drug use trajectories, the odds that you will follow the path from psychedelics to harder drugs may be increased.  In that scenario you would be fucked, unless you can successfully navigate the waters of hard drug use.  I have hope for you though because you've been at this game for a while.




Psychedelics showed me why I used hard drugs and helped me stop.
I don't buy this gateway theory, no one I know started on psychedelics and moved to harder drugs. It was the opposite. I think you are demonizing the psychedelics because they kicked your ass.

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OfflineBenBanned
Oblivious
Male

Registered: 04/30/11
Posts: 24
Loc: NJ
Last seen: 10 years, 1 month
Re: My dirty little psychedelic drug habit [Re: joemolloy]
    #14486798 - 05/20/11 09:30 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

I think a person that is not afraid of themselves has no need for hard drugs. Through realisations from mushrooms I now have realised things that would make it nearly impossible for me to even want to to take hard drugs.

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Invisiblejoemolloy
DMT is Bullshit


Registered: 04/12/09
Posts: 6,525
Re: My dirty little psychedelic drug habit [Re: 1983]
    #14486818 - 05/20/11 09:34 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

I think you are demonizing the psychedelics because they kicked your ass.




I think you are glorifying them because they make you feel good. 

I think you are glorifying them because its the verbal currency of the psychedelic culture and this rationalization to continue taking powerful chemicals negates guilt while minimizing and even denying the negative impact.

One of us is full of shit and lying to himself.  One of us is brutally honest to the point of bearing his fucking soul.  Which is which?


--------------------
Don't PM me with bullshit.  I don't sell or trade cactus and I don't know where you can get any, other than your mother's ass.

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Offlinesaxcidjazz
Male


Registered: 06/02/09
Posts: 1,831
Last seen: 9 years, 4 months
Re: My dirty little psychedelic drug habit [Re: joemolloy]
    #14486833 - 05/20/11 09:38 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

joemolloy said:
Quote:

maestroelite said:
I may be more fucked?  Please explain.  I've been at this game of substance for a while now and taken plenty of time off when I need to and give my real world stuff priority.




If you are wrong and the Gateway Theory is applicable to many or most drug use trajectories, the odds that you will follow the path from psychedelics to harder drugs may be increased.  In that scenario you would be fucked, unless you can successfully navigate the waters of hard drug use.  I have hope for you though because you've been at this game for a while.




I've seen the consequences of hard drug abuse first hand and second hand through stories of my idols.. its not really that appealing to me.  Be wary of sweeping generalizations.  I've known a LOT of psychedelic drug users/pot smokers and very few of them experimented with other stuff unless they intended to to begin with.

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OfflineBenBanned
Oblivious
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Registered: 04/30/11
Posts: 24
Loc: NJ
Last seen: 10 years, 1 month
Re: My dirty little psychedelic drug habit [Re: saxcidjazz]
    #14486865 - 05/20/11 09:43 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

But who has a bigger ego?

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Invisible1983
Stranger

Registered: 04/14/11
Posts: 130
Re: My dirty little psychedelic drug habit [Re: joemolloy]
    #14486985 - 05/20/11 10:05 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

joemolloy said:
Quote:

I think you are demonizing the psychedelics because they kicked your ass.




I think you are glorifying them because they make you feel good. 

I think you are glorifying them because its the verbal currency of the psychedelic culture and this rationalization to continue taking powerful chemicals negates guilt while minimizing and even denying the negative impact.

One of us is full of shit and lying to himself.  One of us is brutally honest to the point of bearing his fucking soul.  Which is which?




I think you are full of shit and lying to yourself. If you were to admit that you failed it would bruise your ego and you can't handle that. Instead of admitting that you and you alone went off the deep end, you rally against the evil psychedelics that do these horrible things to everyone.

Where did I glorify them?

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Invisiblejoemolloy
DMT is Bullshit


Registered: 04/12/09
Posts: 6,525
Re: My dirty little psychedelic drug habit [Re: 1983]
    #14487126 - 05/20/11 10:27 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:


I think you are full of shit and lying to yourself. If you were to admit that you failed it would bruise your ego and you can't handle that. Instead of admitting that you and you alone went off the deep end, you rally against the evil psychedelics that do these horrible things to everyone.





My posts are heartfelt, honest, self-deprecating, and very open about my drug use and their effects on me.  I don't candycoat any of it.  I'm never scared to beat myself up.  You can call me a lot of things, but full of shit?  Nah.  My honesty threatens you and the webs you've weaved and the tales you tell yourself:


Quote:

Where did I glorify them?



Here's a quote from you in a previous thread: I frequently use knowledge gained from taking psychedelics to better my life.

Ah, the glory of these knowledge giving drugs!  How profound and original.  1983 takes drugs and gets smart!  He's a believer in this psychedelic cult.  My ideas contradict yours and are insulting to you.  They deny that your drug experiences gave you knowledge, they imply that you're the slave who thinks he's free.  You're the Christian confronting the atheist.  I understand where you are coming from.


--------------------
Don't PM me with bullshit.  I don't sell or trade cactus and I don't know where you can get any, other than your mother's ass.

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Invisible1983
Stranger

Registered: 04/14/11
Posts: 130
Re: My dirty little psychedelic drug habit [Re: joemolloy]
    #14487380 - 05/20/11 11:11 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

You sure like to embellish my posts. You are ate up dude. I do use knowledge gained from my trips to better my life. I went deep into my subconscious and confronted things that are real and verifiable. Such as feeling resentment about things my parents did. I used this knowledge to stop using cocaine, marijuana and and the various assortment of other drugs I used to numb my pain.

I don't seek this mysterious vague knowledge of the universe you seem to have sought. If you seek that you are a fool.

Your views don't threaten me, they annoy me because you won't STFU. Some SWIM on a message board isn't going to change my mind about something I have done for 33 years.

Proceed to project your experience on to me and everyone else if it helps you cope.

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OfflinePhantomPower
Stranger


Registered: 06/19/04
Posts: 80
Loc: Canada
Last seen: 9 years, 10 months
Re: My dirty little psychedelic drug habit [Re: joemolloy]
    #14488531 - 05/21/11 06:27 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

joemolloy said:
Quote:

Vsnares.Zappa said:
Joe , you have to admit that the evolution of your critical thinking/consciousness is intimatly tied to your drug use.To say that the  delusional thought patterns are detrimental is debatable. They  can shed a light on habitual thought patterns and give you a better understanding of your own mind.





I think I was living in a psychedelic cloud for two years.  Psychedelics never sharpened or helped me hone my thinking abilities, sober reflection did that.




Would I be off base in suggesting that sober reflection about your psychedelic cloud period led you to the conclusions you've reached?  And has this strengthened your confidence in your own intelligence and gifts?

I guess I'm asking, did you need to go through there to get here?


--------------------


When the going gets tough, I get high.

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OfflineComradez
stargazer
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Registered: 03/21/10
Posts: 615
Last seen: 3 years, 5 months
Re: My dirty little psychedelic drug habit [Re: joemolloy]
    #14488593 - 05/21/11 07:06 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

joemolloy said:
Quote:

Vsnares.Zappa said:
Joe , you have to admit that the evolution of your critical thinking/consciousness is intimatly tied to your drug use.To say that the  delusional thought patterns are detrimental is debatable. They  can shed a light on habitual thought patterns and give you a better understanding of your own mind.





I think I was living in a psychedelic cloud for two years.  I thought I was liberated from the shackles of 21st century, capitalist, democratic, Judeo-Christian thought.  Instead I was shackled by a powerful drug and incorporating the likes of Terence Mckenna, Alan Watts, and the rest of the psychedelic gurus into my mental life.  I was eagerly devouring all of the psychedelic literature and reading all of the forums absorbing this new world and its culture.  I traded one prison for another.  If I am a slave, I'd rather not be a slave to a drug.  I'd rather deal with my reality using my own intelligence and gifts rather than have them distorted and altered by chemicals.  Psychedelics never sharpened or helped me hone my thinking abilities, sober reflection did that.




Careful here.  Be sure not to overestimate your rationality or objectivity now.  Our sober minds always use "prisons" (or "structures," to use a more neutral term) in order to facilitate thinking.  Thinking about everything from first principles all the time is not practical (nor can you actually go anywhere with it in the end, because any system based upon a set of first principles will be logically unable to prove the objective validity of those first principles, a la Godel's Incompleteness Theorem).  So, at some point, you have to judge a thought structure by the practical uses it confers--what it does for you in your life--and not based on its objective truth, because determining that is impossible.

So, Judeo-Christian religion is a structure.  Terence Mckenna's occasionally profound and occasionally delusional insights are a structure.  You are using a different structure right now, a different "operating system," (as Terence Mckenna would call it).

At least Terence Mckenna's operating system encourages me to occasionally suspend the running of any operating system to see what sort of inherently unprovable axioms I am running off of, and to compare the merits of the different operating systems.  An operating system that implicitly calls itself into question appears to me to most likely be more self-limiting and robust. 

Any culture is a thought structure.  When Terence Mckenna says, "Culture is not your friend," he's not just talking about Judeo-Christian culture, or some other modern mainstream culture.  He's also talking about some indigenous, ayahuasca-using culture.  He's talking about modern psychedelic culture.  He is talking about any culture. 

I have no way of verifying this, but Terence Mckenna claims that shamans are somewhat estranged from even their own indigenous cultures because they venture outside of it so often to the meta-operating system level via psychedelics.  In the same vein, then, it is fine to read stuff other people post on the shroomery, and to consider psychedelic culture as an operating system one could use for practical purposes (I think current psychedelic culture still leaves a lot to be desired in this aspect), but at the end of the day, one need not be constrained by what Terence Mckenna or Alan Watts or any other psychedelic guru says. 

I must applaud Terence Mckenna, actually, for constantly stressing the need to avoid guru-driven thinking and to instead constantly go back to the primary source material--the psychedelic experience.  Don't necessarily accept secondhand lessons.  That, funnily enough, applies to Terence Mckenna as well.  "Baba-gi" is not as good as psilocybin, and neither is Terence Mckenna.


--------------------

They say that life's a carousel / Spinning fast, you've got to ride it well / The world is full of kings and queens / Who blind your eyes and steal your dreams / It's heaven and hell - Ronnie James Dio (RIP) :headbanger:

Edited by Comradez (05/21/11 07:10 AM)

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Invisiblejoemolloy
DMT is Bullshit


Registered: 04/12/09
Posts: 6,525
Re: My dirty little psychedelic drug habit [Re: 1983]
    #14488603 - 05/21/11 07:12 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Quote:

1983 said:
You sure like to embellish my posts. You are ate up dude. I do use knowledge gained from my trips to better my life. I went deep into my subconscious and confronted things that are real and verifiable. Such as feeling resentment about things my parents did. I used this knowledge to stop using cocaine, marijuana and and the various assortment of other drugs I used to numb my pain.




I can appreciate what you are saying but I ultimately found this disempowering and a weak type of thinking for me.  When I'd trip, I'd feel as if I had twenty years worth of psychotherapy in three hours.  My whole life and all of its problems would be paraded before me and laid out in new perspectives for me to interpret.  I'd feel refreshed, relieved, and much better.  But after a while, the anti-depressant type of afterglow would wear off and my resolution, insights, and knowledge would seem simplistic and trite and I was back to square one.  So I'd take another trip and believe I was making progress, but the trips don't connect and the growth is illusory and the mindset is really one of self-reinforcing drug behavior.  The underlying problems are still there, the scars never fully go away, but for a while I feel better.

If you have sustained and consistent positive outcomes from your psychedelic use, then I'm glad you found your peace.  There's always that part of me that thought I'd found peace too but it was anything but peace and I couldn't distinguish between them.

1983, its hard not to degenerate into a dick when we talk about these issues and I respect your opinions about these drugs and how you feel about them.  I'm in a different headspace than I was for a long time and I seem to see through all the stuff (lies?) I told myself for a long time when I was heavily tripping.  I understand too well every post that contradicts mine.  Part of me thinks I should just shut the fuck up and another part needs to express my feelings because I need a fucking outlet for this shit.  Its heavy.


--------------------
Don't PM me with bullshit.  I don't sell or trade cactus and I don't know where you can get any, other than your mother's ass.

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Invisiblejoemolloy
DMT is Bullshit


Registered: 04/12/09
Posts: 6,525
Re: My dirty little psychedelic drug habit [Re: Comradez]
    #14488614 - 05/21/11 07:20 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:


Careful here.  Be sure not to overestimate your rationality or objectivity now.  Our sober minds always use "prisons" (or "structures," to use a more neutral term) in order to facilitate thinking.  Thinking about everything from first principles all the time is not practical (nor can you actually go anywhere with it in the end, because any system based upon a set of first principles will be logically unable to prove the objective validity of those first principles, a la Godel's Incompleteness Theorem).  So, at some point, you have to judge a thought structure by the practical uses it confers--what it does for you in your life--and not based on its objective truth, because determining that is impossible.





Interesting post, Comradez.  I think the proof is in the pudding.  I seem to operate maximally and most successfully in consensus reality.  Perhaps exposure to psychedelic culture can enhance metaphorical thinking, creativity, and non-linear thought and that can transfer over to practical tools in real life.  I think I somehow was tipping the scales and trying to incorporate consensus reality into psychedelic life.  I had it ass backwards.


--------------------
Don't PM me with bullshit.  I don't sell or trade cactus and I don't know where you can get any, other than your mother's ass.

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InvisibleFerdinando
Male

Registered: 11/15/09
Posts: 3,682
Re: My dirty little psychedelic drug habit [Re: Comradez]
    #14488637 - 05/21/11 07:30 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

I'm glad you seem to be doing ok joemolloy

I have never gotten far out theories on psychs that did not hold my water afterwards (huh?)

I guess I am more simple than you
I have made meditation effort to simplify myself (read A New Earth by Tolle, if you want to know what that is all about - some of the book is metaphysical nonsense, some is symbol of/pointer to something more valuable than the money you will make in your life time)

peace is found when you learn to let go


--------------------
with our love with our love we could save the world

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Invisible1983
Stranger

Registered: 04/14/11
Posts: 130
Re: My dirty little psychedelic drug habit [Re: joemolloy]
    #14488775 - 05/21/11 08:29 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

joemolloy said:
Quote:

Quote:

1983 said:
You sure like to embellish my posts. You are ate up dude. I do use knowledge gained from my trips to better my life. I went deep into my subconscious and confronted things that are real and verifiable. Such as feeling resentment about things my parents did. I used this knowledge to stop using cocaine, marijuana and and the various assortment of other drugs I used to numb my pain.




I can appreciate what you are saying but I ultimately found this disempowering and a weak type of thinking for me.

.......

  I'm in a different headspace than I was for a long time and I seem to see through all the stuff (lies?) I told myself for a long time when I was heavily tripping.  I understand too well every post that contradicts mine.  Part of me thinks I should just shut the fuck up and another part needs to express my feelings because I need a fucking outlet for this shit.  Its heavy.




I don't see it as dis-empowering. I see it as a way to get clues, it doesn't magically cure me. I use the clues to see what to work on when I am sober.

There is nothing wrong with talking about what happened to you. I just had to point out that this doesn't happen to everybody.

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Invisible1983
Stranger

Registered: 04/14/11
Posts: 130
Re: My dirty little psychedelic drug habit [Re: 1983]
    #14488784 - 05/21/11 08:33 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

joemolloy said:
Quote:

Quote:

1983 said:
You sure like to embellish my posts. You are ate up dude. I do use knowledge gained from my trips to better my life. I went deep into my subconscious and confronted things that are real and verifiable. Such as feeling resentment about things my parents did. I used this knowledge to stop using cocaine, marijuana and and the various assortment of other drugs I used to numb my pain.







I can appreciate what you are saying but I ultimately found this disempowering and a weak type of thinking for me.

.......

  I'm in a different headspace than I was for a long time and I seem to see through all the stuff (lies?) I told myself for a long time when I was heavily tripping.  I understand too well every post that contradicts mine.  Part of me thinks I should just shut the fuck up and another part needs to express my feelings because I need a fucking outlet for this shit.  Its heavy.




I don't see it as dis-empowering. I see it as a way to get clues, it doesn't magically cure me. I use the clues to see what to work on when I am sober.

There is nothing wrong with talking about what happened to you if you keep it to your experience. I just had to point out that this doesn't happen to everybody.

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Offlinefantasticfungus
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Registered: 09/08/10
Posts: 684
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Re: My dirty little psychedelic drug habit [Re: 1983]
    #14489681 - 05/21/11 01:52 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

It's an exploration joe, it ain't dirty.

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Invisiblefloydisgod
whoa
Male User Gallery

Registered: 03/03/08
Posts: 802
Loc: satur9 Flag
Re: My dirty little psychedelic drug habit [Re: fantasticfungus]
    #14489714 - 05/21/11 01:57 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Posting to check this out later


--------------------
Fearlessly the idiot faced the crowd
Smiling

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