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zzantium2999
Shroom Groomer



Registered: 03/22/11
Posts: 177
Loc: Toronto Canada
Last seen: 12 years, 3 months
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cloning and isolating...one and the same?>
#14486440 - 05/20/11 08:27 PM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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The other day I asked if someone had any isolated strains. They told me "no but I have some cloned." Are clones and isolated strains different? If so, how do they differ? I always thought once you removed flesh from inside a shroom, and put it in agar. That was an isolated strain, and from there you could grow a clone.
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A good friend would bail you out of jail, but your best friend would be the one sitting next to you saying, "damn that was awesome".
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anonjon
Partially Right

Registered: 11/03/08
Posts: 6,322
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Re: cloning and isolating...one and the same?> [Re: zzantium2999]
#14486471 - 05/20/11 08:31 PM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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Sometimes on a good flush primordia will intertwine and infuse themselves into a single fruit. So there's cases where u'll have a fruit that actually contains multiple strains.
Some people insist that they can see the sectoring on agar when they grow out a tissue sample.
I say if the multiple strains are similar enough to have cooperated in the construction of single handsome (not a fucked up mutant) fruit, then for all intents and purposes they are the same strain. Especially when you consider that the transfer of genetic material in the mycelium is really a messy business. There's nucleii flying around all over the place. At some level the differences in genetic code becomes insignificant.
So to me yes a clone is an isolate, end of story.
-------------------- The above post is fictional, hypothetical, or downright nonsensical.
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Doc_T
Random Dude




Registered: 03/06/09
Posts: 42,395
Loc: Colorado
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Re: cloning and isolating...one and the same?> [Re: anonjon]
#14486552 - 05/20/11 08:47 PM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
anonjon said: Some people insist that they can see the sectoring on agar when they grow out a tissue sample.
So to me yes a clone is an isolate, end of story.
I saw sectoring every time I have cloned a tissue sample. And yes they are related, but no they are not identical. An isolate is a single genetic organism. A clone may or may not be.
-------------------- You make it all possible. Doesn't it feel good?
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anonjon
Partially Right

Registered: 11/03/08
Posts: 6,322
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Re: cloning and isolating...one and the same?> [Re: Doc_T]
#14486761 - 05/20/11 09:26 PM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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Do you believe that an isolate would perform better than a grow that contained 2 or 3 strains?
I know we don't know. But what do you suspect?
Cuz to me this is what it comes down to, are they functionally / significantly different. Otherwise it's just semantics.
-------------------- The above post is fictional, hypothetical, or downright nonsensical.
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skiddy
RockStar


Registered: 03/25/11
Posts: 366
Last seen: 12 years, 7 months
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Re: cloning and isolating...one and the same?> [Re: anonjon]
#14486778 - 05/20/11 09:28 PM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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i agree totally.. to me either term could be used once and the same
-------------------- PESH : Pinning Transeski : colonizing Orrisa : colonizing Mex a : colonizing You're not a mycologist just because you grow mushrooms.
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Doc_T
Random Dude




Registered: 03/06/09
Posts: 42,395
Loc: Colorado
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Re: cloning and isolating...one and the same?> [Re: anonjon]
#14486793 - 05/20/11 09:30 PM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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I've seen clones that act all the same, and clones that look different as they go, more like multispore. Perfectly fine cultures, but not an isolate.
-------------------- You make it all possible. Doesn't it feel good?
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Matty_Rulez
Lurker, explorer



Registered: 01/13/02
Posts: 269
Loc: Canada
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Re: cloning and isolating...one and the same?> [Re: Doc_T]
#14486823 - 05/20/11 09:35 PM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
Doc_T said:
I saw sectoring every time I have cloned a tissue sample.
I noticed this as well. Here's a pic of 4 samples from the same fruit...

and here's the upper-right one 3 days later....
-------------------- Life would be tragic if it weren't funny. - Stephen Hawking
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mabachko
Just Strange



Registered: 02/11/11
Posts: 702
Last seen: 8 years, 7 months
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Re: cloning and isolating...one and the same?> [Re: Doc_T]
#14486860 - 05/20/11 09:43 PM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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I suppose, subs & condition variations may have alot to do with it also?
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RogerRabbit
Bans for Pleasure



Registered: 03/26/03
Posts: 42,214
Loc: Seattle
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Re: cloning and isolating...one and the same?> [Re: anonjon]
#14486876 - 05/20/11 09:45 PM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
anonjon said: Sometimes on a good flush primordia will intertwine and infuse themselves into a single fruit. So there's cases where u'll have a fruit that actually contains multiple strains.
Some people insist that they can see the sectoring on agar when they grow out a tissue sample.
I say if the multiple strains are similar enough to have cooperated in the construction of single handsome (not a fucked up mutant) fruit, then for all intents and purposes they are the same strain. Especially when you consider that the transfer of genetic material in the mycelium is really a messy business. There's nucleii flying around all over the place. At some level the differences in genetic code becomes insignificant.
So to me yes a clone is an isolate, end of story.
That is just flat-out wrong. It has nothing to do with multiple primordia 'intertwining' into a single fruit. When that happens it's perfectly visible. In addition, not only strains can be cooperating together in a fruiting body, but other species as well, along with numerous species of bacteria. The count can be dozens or more. They are not all the same.
An isolate is a single sector coherent mycelium network which will exhibit the exact same presentation every single time. An isolate is selected for vigorous growth, abundant fruiting, great taste, potency, etc., and all but the best are discarded. This culture can then be grown indefinitely. RR
-------------------- Download Let's Grow Mushrooms semper in excretia sumus solim profundum variat "I've never had a failed experiment. I've only discovered 10,000 methods which do not work." Thomas Edison
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mabachko
Just Strange



Registered: 02/11/11
Posts: 702
Last seen: 8 years, 7 months
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Re: cloning and isolating...one and the same?> [Re: mabachko]
#14486881 - 05/20/11 09:46 PM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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Grim definitely has sectors
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mabachko
Just Strange



Registered: 02/11/11
Posts: 702
Last seen: 8 years, 7 months
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Re: cloning and isolating...one and the same?> [Re: mabachko]
#14486903 - 05/20/11 09:49 PM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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ATa boy RR set us straight once again. Seen the video but not up to agar yet, just doing LC Cloning. Some day.
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anonjon
Partially Right

Registered: 11/03/08
Posts: 6,322
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Re: cloning and isolating...one and the same?> [Re: RogerRabbit]
#14487036 - 05/20/11 10:12 PM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
RogerRabbit said: In addition, not only strains can be cooperating together in a fruiting body, but other species as well, along with numerous species of bacteria. RR
We isolate to keep out the other species and bacteria? Are you medicated?
-------------------- The above post is fictional, hypothetical, or downright nonsensical.
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Doctor_Inoc
Vintage Hand
Registered: 04/30/11
Posts: 646
Loc:
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Re: cloning and isolating...one and the same?> [Re: mabachko]
#14487052 - 05/20/11 10:14 PM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
zzantium2999 said: The other day I asked if someone had any isolated strains. They told me "no but I have some cloned." Are clones and isolated strains different? If so, how do they differ? I always thought once you removed flesh from inside a shroom, and put it in agar. That was an isolated strain, and from there you could grow a clone.
Clones and isolates are 2 completely different things, achieved by to completely different methodologys. Since the differences between cloned and isolated cultures has already been explained, may I add, starting with known cloned cultures is better then starting with multispore, but not as good as starting with a known isolated culture.
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mabachko
Just Strange



Registered: 02/11/11
Posts: 702
Last seen: 8 years, 7 months
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Re: cloning and isolating...one and the same?> [Re: Doctor_Inoc]
#14487078 - 05/20/11 10:18 PM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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IMO starting with a clone is better than starting with a MS, but you can't get a clone without starting with a MS unless your neighbor has one.
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zzantium2999
Shroom Groomer



Registered: 03/22/11
Posts: 177
Loc: Toronto Canada
Last seen: 12 years, 3 months
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Re: cloning and isolating...one and the same?> [Re: RogerRabbit]
#14487459 - 05/20/11 11:30 PM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
RogerRabbit said:
An isolate is a single sector coherent mycelium network which will exhibit the exact same presentation every single time. An isolate is selected for vigorous growth, abundant fruiting, great taste, potency, etc., and all but the best are discarded. This culture can then be grown indefinitely. RR
So I find the best mushroom from my flushes and make a clone of it. inoculate some grains with it, and then fruit the newly colonized grain. Take the best mushroom from all the new flushes and then clone it. Keep cloning the best mushroom and then creating a new batch. then starting all over again, creating an isolate? If I'm correct. When would someone now consider it a isolate, rather then a clone?
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A good friend would bail you out of jail, but your best friend would be the one sitting next to you saying, "damn that was awesome".
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afrosheen
9Lives the cat



Registered: 03/06/10
Posts: 1,878
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Re: cloning and isolating...one and the same?> [Re: zzantium2999]
#14487493 - 05/20/11 11:38 PM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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That's not the way to isolate. To create an isolate, you start with spores on agar or a clone tissue sample on agar. You then observe growth in the plates, selecting the strongest sectors, cutting and transferring that growth to another set of agar dishes. You do this for a few generations and eventually you end up with an isolate that displays even growth with no sectoring on the plate.
This can take months depending on how you start and how aggressive the strain is. However, it's hard to argue with the results. Prof. Penis has created some Godzilla shrooms by cloning and isolating PE strains. They are consistently enormous because he has isolated the mycelium that produces the growth he desires.
That being said, you should focus on what you want your strain to accomplish from the beginning. If you want a full pinset, take your clone from a fruit in a cluster. If you want monsters, clone the largest fruit. You will still have to test and isolate, but your initial selection of genetic material should reflect your goals.
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anonjon
Partially Right

Registered: 11/03/08
Posts: 6,322
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Re: cloning and isolating...one and the same?> [Re: zzantium2999]
#14488886 - 05/21/11 09:24 AM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
zzantium2999 said:
Quote:
RogerRabbit said:
An isolate is a single sector coherent mycelium network which will exhibit the exact same presentation every single time. An isolate is selected for vigorous growth, abundant fruiting, great taste, potency, etc., and all but the best are discarded. This culture can then be grown indefinitely. RR
So I find the best mushroom from my flushes and make a clone of it. inoculate some grains with it, and then fruit the newly colonized grain. Take the best mushroom from all the new flushes and then clone it. Keep cloning the best mushroom and then creating a new batch. then starting all over again, creating an isolate? If I'm correct. When would someone now consider it a isolate, rather then a clone?
From the mouths of babes.
You may safely ignore the semantics. All u really need to know how to do is clone fruits and you will get big nice flushes. If later you want to show off your mad agar skills and isolate a strain out...go for it. But it will make no difference in your yields. It's just for blathering rights.
-------------------- The above post is fictional, hypothetical, or downright nonsensical.
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