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InvisiblePoid
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Ultimate VS immediate responsibility
    #14485772 - 05/20/11 06:16 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

What is your take on the distinction between the two?


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

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OfflineEpigallo
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Re: Ultimate VS immediate responsibility [Re: Poid]
    #14486160 - 05/20/11 07:34 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

SHORT TERM VERSUS LONG TERM CONSEQUENCES?


my take? what is your take on the linguistic origins of "your take"? what am i taking?

nothing matters, it seems, ultimately. the earth will perish. but immediately, it can matter greatly. so i value immediate responsibility more. but often i find it necessary to sacrifice the immediate consequences in order to align with more favorable lonng term consequences. truth be told, this matter still confuses me and i never figured it out. it caused a crisis in me and i chose to usually just concentrate on immediate responsibility because otherwise i will go crazy. i appreciate your question.

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OfflineEpigallo
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Re: Ultimate VS immediate responsibility [Re: Epigallo]
    #14486509 - 05/20/11 08:38 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

the quote in your signature seems to be drivel.

when you have a sentence of the form "it's one thing to "A", but another thing to "B", A and B should be such that B is a more severe instance of action A, usually of a magnitude to almost warrant classifying "B" in an entirely different category than "A". But there should still be some resemblance. If we look at FWG's statement, we see that he compares enjoying an unconventional or largely unaccepted lifestyle with the act of disparaging another's lifestyle. Obviously, these are not two instances of disparagement or chastisement. He compares the doer to the done. His statement is akin to reading something along the lines of "It is one thing to eat an apple, but it is another to plant a tree that grows apples". The subjects in the two clauses of his sentence just don't fit the meaning that is conventionally implied by his grammar. It is usually something like "It is one thing to eat an apple, but it is another to consume an entire grocery store's worth of produce".

Next, "rationalization" is usually making an excuse for something that has deleterious effects. you rationalize your over indulgent drinking by stating that alcohol has many antioxidants and can increase social connections. you don't "rationalize" another's faults as being faults, in my opinion.

and who is to say that "rationalizing" someone's faults as inferior is a result of personal fear or control issues? I cannot criticize a serial rapist's actions without being accused of merely projecting my fear or control issues onto him? get real.

that quote you have is just drivel just praying to be accepted as a profound insight.

---written from my drunken bod

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InvisibleCognitive_Shift
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Re: Ultimate VS immediate responsibility [Re: Poid]
    #14486843 - 05/20/11 09:40 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Poid said:
What is your take on the distinction between the two?



What is ultimate responsibility?


--------------------
L'enfer est plein de bonnes volontés et désirs

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InvisibleDieCommie

Registered: 12/11/03
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Re: Ultimate VS immediate responsibility [Re: Poid]
    #14487450 - 05/20/11 11:28 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Generally they are more similar than one wants to admit.

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OfflinexFrockx
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Re: Ultimate VS immediate responsibility [Re: Epigallo]
    #14487800 - 05/21/11 12:58 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

"I cannot criticize a serial rapist's actions without being accused of merely projecting my fear or control issues onto him? get real."

How can you without doing so then?

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InvisiblePoid
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Re: Ultimate VS immediate responsibility [Re: Epigallo]
    #14487939 - 05/21/11 01:36 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

bradley said:
nothing matters, it seems, ultimately. the earth will perish. but immediately, it can matter greatly. so i value immediate responsibility more. but often i find it necessary to sacrifice the immediate consequences in order to align with more favorable lonng term consequences. truth be told, this matter still confuses me and i never figured it out. it caused a crisis in me and i chose to usually just concentrate on immediate responsibility because otherwise i will go crazy. i appreciate your question.


And I appreciate your response. :smile:


Quote:

bradley said:
the quote in your signature seems to be drivel.


I feel like it was contrived with literary genius. :shrug:


Quote:

bradley said:
If we look at FWG's statement, we see that he compares enjoying an unconventional or largely unaccepted lifestyle with the act of disparaging another's lifestyle.


Huh? There is no mention of unconventionality in that quote, you are merely assuming there is.


Quote:

bradley said:
Obviously, these are not two instances of disparagement or chastisement. He compares the doer to the done. His statement is akin to reading something along the lines of "It is one thing to eat an apple, but it is another to plant a tree that grows apples".


He's comparing merely living an enjoyable lifestyle to judging the lifestyles of others as a result of a personal fear/control issue..I don't see the dilemma. :shrug:


Quote:

bradley said:
The subjects in the two clauses of his sentence just don't fit the meaning that is conventionally implied by his grammar. It is usually something like "It is one thing to eat an apple, but it is another to consume an entire grocery store's worth of produce".


IMO the sentence fits the meaning that is conventionally implied by his grammar.


Quote:

bradley said:
you don't "rationalize" another's faults as being faults, in my opinion.


Why not?


Quote:

bradley said:
and who is to say that "rationalizing" someone's faults as inferior is a result of personal fear or control issues?


Definitely not FWG (at least not in that quote)..he is only speaking about people who rationalize someone's lifestyle as a result of personal fear/control issues.


Quote:

bradley said:
that quote you have is just drivel just praying to be accepted as a profound insight.


IMO, the insight isn't extremely profound (although it is somewhat profound), what's profound is the style of prose in which it was worded..you assumed a lot of things that weren't explicitly stated in that quote, and I suspect your incorrect interpretation of it has prevented you from seeing its intrinsic profundity.


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

Edited by Poid (05/21/11 02:15 AM)

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InvisiblePoid
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Re: Ultimate VS immediate responsibility [Re: DieCommie]
    #14487943 - 05/21/11 01:37 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Cognitive_Shift said:
Quote:

Poid said:
What is your take on the distinction between the two?



What is ultimate responsibility?


I asked for your take for a reason. :shrug:


Quote:

DieCommie said:
Generally they are more similar than one wants to admit.


May you give an example?


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

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OfflinexFrockx
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Re: Ultimate VS immediate responsibility [Re: Poid] * 1
    #14488159 - 05/21/11 02:51 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

They are as different as a person makes them. A person might believe they have a personal responsibility to do something due to their ultimate responsibility to something else, or believe that they have an ultimate responsibility to uphold their personal responsibility. Or, a person might separate the two completely and believe they have an ultimate responsibility they are not fulfilling, but have personal responsibilities that they are, like when people have kids and forget their dreams. Or, a person might believe they are upholding an ultimate responsibility but shuck aside their personal responsibilities, like someone who sacrifices themselves for a greater cause but leaves behind their family. Family might be considered an ultimate responsibility, I'm just using it as an example. Either way, anything that can be an ultimate responsibility can be a personal one and vice versa. One might hold one above the other, but neither intrinsically has more worth in pursuit than the other. The source of each comes from the same place, the difference in how one views either one depends on what one finds important. One might feel as strongly about upholding their personal responsibility as one feels about upholding their ultimate responsibility, and vice versa, and one person's ultimate responsibility can be another person's personal responsibility, and vice versa.

I think that about covers it, and not once did I spell responsibility correctly without using the spellcheck. Hurrah.

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OfflineEpigallo
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Re: Ultimate VS immediate responsibility [Re: Poid]
    #14488190 - 05/21/11 03:04 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

that was a rant. i guess that is what happens when i drink Arrogant Bastard ale. appropriately named.

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InvisibleCognitive_Shift
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Re: Ultimate VS immediate responsibility [Re: Poid]
    #14489565 - 05/21/11 01:19 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Poid said:
Quote:

Cognitive_Shift said:
Quote:

Poid said:
What is your take on the distinction between the two?



What is ultimate responsibility?


I asked for your take for a reason. :shrug:




Any question where the words are open to interpretation is going to be a philosophical discussion that not only will never end, it can never properly begin.

Edited by Cognitive_Shift (05/21/11 01:25 PM)

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InvisibleDisoRDeR
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Re: Ultimate VS immediate responsibility [Re: Cognitive_Shift]
    #14492003 - 05/21/11 11:28 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

I see immediate responsibility as instinctual or emotional.  It is an impulsive desire --> action process. 

Immediate responsibility applies our present programming to the immediate environment of our perception.  If I see someone inured I feel an immediate responsibility to help them.

Ultimate responsibility comes in when we (attempt to) consciously reason our way toward a favourable future state.  With memory in mind and data in hand, we extrapolate upon pictures with patterns, painting the universe beyond the horizon of our perception.

The scope of one's ultimate responsibility is dependent upon their model of reality and the values applied to it.  One seeking world peace may feel inclined to take actions with repercussions on a global scale.  One for whom inner peace is of primary importance may pass through the world without attempting to leave a trace.

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Offlinethe bizzle
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Re: Ultimate VS immediate responsibility [Re: DisoRDeR]
    #14492271 - 05/22/11 01:05 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Poid said:
What is your take on the distinction between the two?




In short: I need to be more proactive


--------------------
MY HAIR IS A BIRD 
YOUR ARGUMENT IS INVALID


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InvisibleCognitive_Shift
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Re: Ultimate VS immediate responsibility [Re: the bizzle]
    #14492427 - 05/22/11 02:04 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Ultimate responsibility vs Immediate Responsibility

Live:

Ultimate responsibility - To get a job that i enjoy and pays with in my needs.

Immediate Responsibility - To go to class so i can graduate with good grades to raise my chances of getting that job.

When i was actively a junkie:

Ultimate responsibility - Kick this habit

Immediate Responsibility - Get high so i don't get dope sick.


--------------------
L'enfer est plein de bonnes volontés et désirs

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Offlinedesert father
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Re: Ultimate VS immediate responsibility [Re: Poid]
    #14492744 - 05/22/11 05:16 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

ultimate responsibility = self

immediate responsibility = family


--------------------
vi veri veniversum vivus vici

What she said :
"I smoke 'cos I'm hoping for an
Early death
AND I NEED TO CLING TO SOMETHING !"

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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: Ultimate VS immediate responsibility [Re: Epigallo]
    #14492855 - 05/22/11 06:25 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

bradley said:
you rationalize your over indulgent drinking by stating that alcohol has many antioxidants and can increase social connections. you don't "rationalize" another's faults as being faults, in my opinion.




I don't understand such a limited definition of the word rationalization. Not only does the dictionary specify that the word refers to producing explanations for acts, opinions, etc. in general, it also logically follows that it's an action that can occur regardless of whether or not it is one's own behavior that one is trying to rationalize.
I can think of a number of common cases in which, not only is the word actually used in this sense, but an individual actually carries out the action of the verb, in regards to behavior of someone else.

Quote:


and who is to say that "rationalizing" someone's faults as inferior is a result of personal fear or control issues?




Who said it was necessarily implied? The quotation is a comparison between two actions. It didn't explicitly state or subtly allude that such an action is a result of such issues. It is talking about an instance in which it is.

Quote:


I cannot criticize a serial rapist's actions without being accused of merely projecting my fear or control issues onto him? get real.




I don't comprehend how my quotation implies accusations, or that all criticism is rooted in unresolved fear or control issues. :shrug:

Quote:


when you have a sentence of the form "it's one thing to "A", but another thing to "B", A and B should be such that B is a more severe instance of action A, usually of a magnitude to almost warrant classifying "B" in an entirely different category than "A".




Uh, not necessarily, dude. In this case, it's highlighting the juxtaposition between two actions through comparing them as both being options in the same circumstance.

Quote:


that quote you have is just drivel just praying to be accepted as a profound insight.





Whatever you say, homeboy. :thumbup:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:

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InvisibleCups
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Re: Ultimate VS immediate responsibility [Re: fireworks_god]
    #14492881 - 05/22/11 06:45 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

fireworks_god said:
Whatever you say, homeboy. :thumbup:




So, you're saying it was a profound insight?  :tongue:


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What's up everybody?!

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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: Ultimate VS immediate responsibility [Re: Cups]
    #14492887 - 05/22/11 06:50 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

A more illuminous insight there certainly has not been. :sunny:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:

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InvisibleCups
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Re: Ultimate VS immediate responsibility [Re: fireworks_god]
    #14492893 - 05/22/11 06:55 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

:lol:

Well, given the implications behind the subject of this thread..and your quote...it could be argued that's absolutely true.  :strokebeard:

BTW_ Still digging the pandas.  I always stop to look at how cute they are when I see one of your posts. :thumbup:


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What's up everybody?!

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OfflinexFrockx
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Re: Ultimate VS immediate responsibility [Re: fireworks_god]
    #14493688 - 05/22/11 11:54 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

The idea that some insights are more illuminating than others is about as enlightening as a curtain.

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