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Amazon Shop: Portable Greenhouse, Salvia

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Invisiblefjbk47985
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Why does salvia exist?
    #1448054 - 04/10/03 10:41 PM (14 years, 8 months ago)

Or rather, how does it exist? I mean, apparently it very rarely produces viable seeds, and there is quite a bit around. Has it been propagated JUST buy taking cuttings and rooting them?


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Offlineblaze2
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Re: Why does salvia exist? [Re: fjbk47985]
    #1448159 - 04/10/03 11:15 PM (14 years, 8 months ago)

some dude hoffman?? found it growing in the rain forest down there he took a cutting and that is one line of salvia found in the headshops today the other is from a more recent excursion to the rainforest, so there is only two different genetic stains of salvia in headshops. in the wild it sometimes drops a limb for whatever reason and then that may root where it falls and that was how it would propogate itself. peace

blaze2


--------------------
"Religion without science is blind, Science without religion is lame." Albert Einstein

"peace is not maintained through force it is acheived through intelligence." Albert Einstein

"Those who desire to give up Freedom in order to gain Security, will not have, nor do they deserve, either one."
Thomas Jefferson

"To compel a man to furnish contributions of money for the propagation of opinions which he disbelieves and abhors, is sinful and tyrannical." --Thomas Jefferson


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Invisiblefjbk47985
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Re: Why does salvia exist? [Re: blaze2]
    #1448244 - 04/10/03 11:46 PM (14 years, 8 months ago)

holy shit man..this is like an endangered species!


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Offlineneuro
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Re: Why does salvia exist? [Re: fjbk47985]
    #1448363 - 04/11/03 12:43 AM (14 years, 8 months ago)

Mr_Mushrooms will be here soon, so watch out.


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InvisibleKOPELANDIAA
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Re: Why does salvia exist? [Re: neuro]
    #1448624 - 04/11/03 02:43 AM (14 years, 8 months ago)

hahaaaaaaaa !!!!! what did i saw there ???! hmmm ??? hehe


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Invisibleeric_the_red
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Re: Why does salvia exist? [Re: fjbk47985]
    #1448656 - 04/11/03 03:03 AM (14 years, 8 months ago)

Why does salvia exist?

to scare the living shit out of you. :smile:
 


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Anno cock? is that some kind of Greek liqueur? -Geo's All Knowing Sex Slave


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InvisibleKOPELANDIAA
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Re: Why does salvia exist? [Re: eric_the_red]
    #1448659 - 04/11/03 03:06 AM (14 years, 8 months ago)

huuuuuhuuuu one more time !!!!  :smile:


Edited by KOPELANDIAA (04/11/03 03:06 AM)


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OfflineTodcasil
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Re: Why does salvia exist? [Re: KOPELANDIAA]
    #1448704 - 04/11/03 03:34 AM (14 years, 8 months ago)

eric the red--- "to scare the hell out of you!"

lol thats exactly what i was thinking :smile:

~Tod


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Men look at themselves and they see flawed humans, we look at women and we see perfect
GODDESSES
Women look at themselves and they seem utterly human, when looking at men they see proud
GODS.


~Casil



:cactus:


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Offlineblaze2
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Re: Why does salvia exist? [Re: Todcasil]
    #1448762 - 04/11/03 04:28 AM (14 years, 8 months ago)

well it wont go extinct as long as there are large farms of it in hawaii and other places for our benefits.


--------------------
"Religion without science is blind, Science without religion is lame." Albert Einstein

"peace is not maintained through force it is acheived through intelligence." Albert Einstein

"Those who desire to give up Freedom in order to gain Security, will not have, nor do they deserve, either one."
Thomas Jefferson

"To compel a man to furnish contributions of money for the propagation of opinions which he disbelieves and abhors, is sinful and tyrannical." --Thomas Jefferson


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OfflineEvilGir
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Re: Why does salvia exist? [Re: blaze2]
    #1448861 - 04/11/03 06:41 AM (14 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

holy shit man..this is like an endangered species




Thats why evalution didnt let the plant produce seeds, its probably an evolutionary dead end.


--------------------
Fighting the man the best way I can.


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OfflinePaid
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Re: Why does salvia exist? [Re: EvilGir]
    #1448890 - 04/11/03 07:14 AM (14 years, 8 months ago)

Does it not also self produce by suckers?i havent grown it but this is how many seedless plants propergate them selfs.Its certainly not endangered as its spreading allover the world from what i can tell.So maybe its propergation method is to make its self usefull to humans so we do the donkey work :-)

Also though it doesnt set seed in cultivation oftern i think i have read that it has ,and also is anyone sure it doesnt set seed in its natural enviroment?

As i have yet to grow it i know nada about it and am just guessing these things.


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OfflineNirvana
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Re: Why does salvia exist? [Re: Paid]
    #1448896 - 04/11/03 07:24 AM (14 years, 8 months ago)

Salvia isn't endangered in my house anyway... I've probably got more than the Mexican ravines.
Salvia still exists because like blaze2 said, there are farms for it which produce it in vast quantities. Also, Mexican farmers are paid to harvest it and import it so they'll be keeping their fields in bloom because it's a good source of income for them.
Many people are generous with salvia cuttings. You can easily obtain one for a small price from many of the Salvia newsgroups generous members.
They believe in preserving this fine specimen and encourage home growth and distribution. There should be a FSCE Ring (Free Salvia Cutting Europe Ring) IMO. This way we could prolong its survival. Not like there's any need to, as far as I'm aware it's in plentiful supply right now.


--------------------
====* I Made My Avatar *====


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InvisibleKOPELANDIAA
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Re: Why does salvia exist? [Re: Paid]
    #1448898 - 04/11/03 07:26 AM (14 years, 8 months ago)

yes, some people obtained seeds...so there is hope !


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OfflineSalviaEngland
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Re: Why does salvia exist? [Re: KOPELANDIAA]
    #1448941 - 04/11/03 08:23 AM (14 years, 8 months ago)

Plants produce alkaloids and chemicals for protection and as a part of metabolism. Many of these chemicals and alkaloids affect the human body, some by design and others by luck. Through evolution the plant will produce a chemical or alkaloid, which stops another organism consuming a plant. Humans naturally find bitter plants as not very pleasant to eat, bitterness is a sign that the plant could contain poisons so humans naturally stay away from these plants. Through thousands of years of discovery some humans may decided that the effect of these poisons are desirable and induces some change in metal or physical state. Salvia divinorum produces Salvinorin A, which is not an alkaloid but I think the same principle applies. Through the Maztecs discoveries this plant became desirable for divination . It was cultivated through cuttings and runners. The problem is that these cultivars rarely produce viable seeds. To solve this problem some wild Salvia divinorum needs to be introduced into the gene pool. Some articles suggest that Salvia divinorum does not exist in the wild and patches of Salvia divinorum found on the rain forest are all from cultivated sources. Other people believe that Salvia divinorum is in fact a unique hybrid of other tropical salvias and never existed in the wild as a viable species.

Salvia Divinorum History


--------------------

Cactus


Edited by SalviaEngland (04/11/03 09:04 AM)


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OfflineSalviaEngland
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Re: Why does salvia exist? [Re: SalviaEngland]
    #1448966 - 04/11/03 08:39 AM (14 years, 8 months ago)

The Botany of Salvia divinorum (Labiatae) by Aaron S. Reisfield. A fantastic HTML version of his paper with lots of great photos. Originally published in SIDA (1993) 15: 349-366.

The Barrier to Fertility

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Meiocytes from anthers of S. divinorum (Reisfield 1242) flower buds were suitable for chromosome counting during the first and second metaphase. No irregularities in pairing were observed, and the species was found to be diploid, with n=11 (photograph of squash in Reisfield 1987), which is the number most common in species of subg. Calosphace. Nevertheless, many examples of species are known in which chromosome pairing appears normal, but meiosis breaks down in the later stages and pollen grains fail to develop, due to various types and degrees of chromosome non-homology or genic sterility (Stebbins 1958). A failure during the late stages of meiosis or during gametogenesis would normally lead to unviable pollen grains, often reflecting a disharmonious interaction of parental genes, usually indicating hybridity. A scan of pollen from preserved flowers of Salvia sessei Benth. (Reisfield 1252), S. flaccidifolia Fern. (Reisfield 1218), and S. mexicana L. (Reisfield 1244), revealed that virtually all the pollen grains took up the stain. Pollen grains of S. Divinorum from greenhouse-grown plants (mixed collections) were much less viable, with 882 (56%) of the 1587 pollen grains observed aborted. Pollen from flowers of S. Divinorum collected at Cerro Quemado (Reisfield 1242) showed a similarly low degree of fertility relative to other Salvia species, with 1592 (53%) aborted pollen grains out of 3027 observed. Haplontic and/or diplontic sterility of interspecific hybrids is often similarly manifested, indicating the taxon may be of hybrid origin. Still, the inviability of the haploid stage in the life cycle is only partial, and can not explain why the plants apparently set no seed in Mexico.

Hand pollinations in the greenhouse clearly showed the chief barrier to fertility in S. Divinorum is not a failure to be pollinated. Of a total of 108 self-pollinations (108 stigmas dusted with pollen from the same plant or genetically identical plants), only 11 mericarps developed fully into dark, indurate, viable nutlets. Since each pollinated flower could potentially yield four nutlets, the 11 fruit represent 2.5% of a total potential yield of 432 fruit. Of 190 cross-pollinations, only 24 (3%) nutlets fully matured from a potential of 760 fruit. Most of the calyces abscised between 5 and 10 days after pollination, and quite often one or two (sometimes more) mericarps were noticed to be developing before the calyx and ovary fell from the plant. Several of the mature seeds were germinated in the UW Greenhouses, and vigorous seedlings developed into plants indistinguishable (though not grown to flowering) from their parents. Since flowering is so sporadic in Mexico, pollination may, in fact, be undependable. Furthermore, pollen seems not to adhere to the stigma with great effeciency. Still, many viable pollen grains that were deposited on receptive stigmas did not lead to fruit set, indicating some failure after this stage in the life cycle of S. Divinorum.

It has been suggested that S. Divinorum is self-sterile (Vald?s 1983; Vald?s et al. 1987) which, if true, would explain the observed failure to set fruit. Individual populations all seem to be clonal, and plants of adjacent populations could feasably be genetically identical. Given the anthropogenic distribution of S. Divinorum throughout the region inhabited by the Mazatec, it is also quite possible that many distinct populations are derived from a single source. Such a situation would explain why artificial cross-pollinations resulted in no greater fruit set than self-pollinations, since the so called cross-pollinations would, in reality, be between genetically identical plants. Even if plants were not genetically identical, a common self-incompatability factor shared by the functional male and female plants would prevent successful fertilization. This type of self rejection, though, seems to be rare in Salvia (few studies have been done), and also could not account for the reduction in pollen fertility.

Further resolution of the problem was obtained by studying pollen germination and tube growth through styles of hand-pollinated flowers. Of 39 styles observed, 13 (33%) had four or more pollen tubes that traversed the entire length of the style, reaching the ovary. Three or more pollen tubes reached the ovary in almost one half the styles observed. Of the 20 styles in which four or more pollen grains or tubes were observable at all, 14 had three or more pollen tubes that reached the ovary. Also, no difference was noted between the self- and supposed cross-pollinations.

In classical genetic self-incompatability systems, the site of pollen tube inhibition is on the stigma surface or somewhere in the style. A pollen grain may fail to germinate, or produces a tube that grows abnormally and is soon occluded by callose, or produces a tube that is eventually rejected by the transmitting tissue of the style (Heslop-Harrison 1975). Although this type of active inhibition of the pollen tube may not be the only form of genetic mate discrimination in plants (Mulcahy & Mulcahy 1983), the best understood self-rejection systems (oppositional systems) do involve observable changes (e.g., swelling) in the growing tip of the pollen tube. No such abnormalities were observed for S. Divinorum, and no occlusions were found anywhere in the style. A barrier to seed set is apparently encountered after pollen tubes reach the ovary, at some point between the time the tube enters the micropyle of the ovule and the early development of the embryo. Since calyces often abscise while the included nutlets are developing, post-zygotic embryo abortion or endosperm failure is probable. Whether this is due to inbreeding depression, hybridity, or a late acting (delayed) self-incompatability reaction is difficult to know with certainty. The latter is unlikely, especially because gametogenesis and other stages of the life cycle are also irregular, and one would think the various aberrations have a common cause. Inbreeding depression is often the fate of taxa that become closely associated with man, and could potentially cause the observed irregularities.

The various anomalies that characterize Salvia Divinorum might perhaps be best explained as due to hybridity, but unfortunately, additional evidence is lacking. To none of the almost 500 species that comprise the Neotropical Salvia subg. Calosphace (Benth.) Benth. does S. Divinorum show any obvious affinity, nor is intermediacy between two known species evident. Although the various character states of S. Divinorum are encountered at one place or another within subg. Calosphace, I have been unable to identify the two species, out of the hundreds, which, when crossed, might have produced offspring that look like S. Divinorum. The species is certainly anomalous in sect. Dusenostachys Epl. (Epling 1939), to which it was originally assigned (Epling & J?tiva 1962).

The Mazatecs say that "La Maria [S. Divinorum] speaks with a quiet voice," which may explain, in part, why many issues concerning this enigmatic plant remain unsolved. Whether of hybrid origin or an inbred cultigen, questions regarding taxonomic affinities, fruit abortion, native distribution, and pharmacology are yet to be conclusively resolved.


--------------------

Cactus


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Invisiblefjbk47985
Has Been AbsentFor Far Too Long
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Re: Why does salvia exist? [Re: SalviaEngland]
    #1449013 - 04/11/03 09:17 AM (14 years, 8 months ago)

Wow, that was really interesting.
I'm no scientist but this still got me thinking about weather or not it would be possible to cross salvia with something else, something else that actually reproduces correctly.


On an even less scientific note, maybe the plant is not even from this world. Maybe the first original seeds blew in from some cosmic wind in outerspace thousands of years ago (maybe as far back as when mars had water and a possible extraterestrial colony) and landed in the area we now call the rainforest and the reason they don't reproduce is because they're incompatible with this planet and need some other alien plant to breed with.

Or maybe it's the last surviving plant from the dinosaur era or even furtur back.

(^see this si what drugs do to ur mind, they make u more creative and open minded :smile:


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Anonymous

Re: Why does salvia exist? [Re: SalviaEngland]
    #1449799 - 04/11/03 02:59 PM (14 years, 8 months ago)

- Post History Deleted Upon User's Request -


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Amazon Shop: Portable Greenhouse, Salvia

Mushrooms, Mycology and Psychedelics >> The Ethnobotanical Garden

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