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Invisible1983
Stranger

Registered: 04/14/11
Posts: 130
Re: Why is rape wrong? [Re: Fraggin]
    #14477705 - 05/19/11 09:49 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

How can there be victims if there is no right or wrong?

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InvisibleSleepwalker
Overshoes

Registered: 05/07/08
Posts: 5,503
Re: Why is rape wrong? [Re: Sleepwalker]
    #14477718 - 05/19/11 09:54 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Intellectual Rapee says:
Is that a penis entering my anus? I didn't agree to this... :goodmorning:
Good thing I understand that morality is subjective and based in emotions, or else this might have been a real problem for me. :levitate:



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Offline4896744
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Registered: 03/06/10
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Last seen: 11 years, 9 months
Re: Why is rape wrong? [Re: SlashOZ]
    #14477729 - 05/19/11 09:58 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

First of all, my basis for saying that all morality is subjective is that there is no objective basis for saying something is "right" or "wrong". That is unless you have discovered the objective basis for "right" and "wrong" oh wise one.

Secondly, when did i claim that subjective morality and the judging of "right" and "wrong" are mutually exclusive? Do you lack basic reading comprehension? If anything i implied the opposite of that.

Lastly, how can something be "true for someone" but not for someone else? People can have subjective opinions on things, but they hold no objective merit. People here are not claiming to merely prefer one system of morality over another, but that their preffered system is objectively true.


--------------------
Live your Life! :heart:

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Offline4896744
Small Town Girl
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Posts: 5,128
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Re: Why is rape wrong? [Re: 1983]
    #14477745 - 05/19/11 10:03 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

1983 said:
How can there be victims if there is no right or wrong?




Because "victim" is a labeling applied to the one having an action performed on them which is percieved as negative.


--------------------
Live your Life! :heart:

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InvisibleSleepwalker
Overshoes

Registered: 05/07/08
Posts: 5,503
Re: Why is rape wrong? [Re: 4896744]
    #14477749 - 05/19/11 10:06 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

iThink said:
Quote:

1983 said:
How can there be victims if there is no right or wrong?




Because "victim" is a labeling applied to the one having an action performed on them which is percieved as negative.




Wouldn't negative, in this case, be analogous to "wrong".

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Offline4896744
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Re: Why is rape wrong? [Re: Sleepwalker]
    #14477762 - 05/19/11 10:09 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Oweyervishice said:
Quote:

iThink said:
Quote:

1983 said:
How can there be victims if there is no right or wrong?




Because "victim" is a labeling applied to the one having an action performed on them which is percieved as negative.




Wouldn't negative, in this case, be analogous to "wrong".




Yes, but percieving something as negative is also subjective.


--------------------
Live your Life! :heart:

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Invisible1983
Stranger

Registered: 04/14/11
Posts: 130
Re: Why is rape wrong? [Re: 4896744]
    #14477785 - 05/19/11 10:15 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

So anything I perceive as negative done to me makes me a victim?

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InvisibleSleepwalker
Overshoes

Registered: 05/07/08
Posts: 5,503
Re: Why is rape wrong? [Re: 4896744]
    #14477789 - 05/19/11 10:16 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Well.  Yep.

I agree with you.  Rape can not be objectively wrong because wrong cannot be objective.


Still think this is a silly topic. :tongue:

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Offline4896744
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Re: Why is rape wrong? [Re: 1983]
    #14477815 - 05/19/11 10:25 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

1983 said:
So anything I perceive as negative done to me makes me a victim?




In your subjective view, yes.


--------------------
Live your Life! :heart:

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InvisibleSlashOZ
:D
Male


Registered: 10/20/06
Posts: 3,557
Loc: Following the water cycle
Re: Why is rape wrong? [Re: 4896744]
    #14477858 - 05/19/11 10:37 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

iThink said:
First of all, my basis for saying that all morality is subjective is that there is no objective basis for saying something is "right" or "wrong". That is unless you have discovered the objective basis for "right" and "wrong" oh wise one.

Ok, there is no objective morality. I'll buy your argument even without proof. Seems to be how things are done around here.

Secondly, when did i claim that subjective morality and the judging of "right" and "wrong" are mutually exclusive? Do you lack basic reading comprehension? If anything i implied the opposite of that.

I'm sorry. In that case I'll clear things up. I believe rape is wrong and i am correct since it is a subjective belief and subjective beliefs on morality cannot be dis-proven because there is no objective morality to compare it to.

Lastly, how can something be "true for someone" but not for someone else? People can have subjective opinions on things, but they hold no objective merit. People here are not claiming to merely prefer one system of morality over another, but that their preffered system is objectively true.

If you think all morality is subjective then when someone asserts their view on morality it is objectively true for that individual. Subjectivity is truth for the individual. The fact that i like toast is an objective truth about me based on my subjective views on toast.

Example:
If i think rape is wrong then you would be objectively correct to say that, 'SlashOZ believes rape to be wrong.'

If i believe rape is wrong you would objectively wrong to say 'SlashOZ believes rape is okay.'

If we are discussing an issue of morality and you begin with the stance of 'there is not objective morality' then to question others subjective beliefs is an effort in futility.







--------------------
"Life sucks but in this really beautiful way" - Axl Rose
"Life's a bitch and then you die that's why we get high cuz you never know when you're gonna go." - NAS
"When people don't know what you're about they put you down and shut you out" - Black Sabbath
"An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind" - Gandhi
"Look up at me I am God, look down on me and I am evil, look at me I am you." - Charles Manson.
"Don't question my reality." - Me (as far as I know)

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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group
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Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 45,432
Loc: Under the C
Re: Why is rape wrong? [Re: SlashOZ]
    #14477974 - 05/19/11 11:05 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

A woman flirts with her date and voluntarily drinks herself into a near stupor. She is still conscious and her date takes her to bed with no objection. The next morning she protests.

Was the man wrong?


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Invisiblejohnm214
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Registered: 05/31/07
Posts: 17,582
Loc: Americas
Re: Why is rape wrong? [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #14478010 - 05/19/11 11:14 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Probably, but I wouldn't convict him if I was on the jury if the victim didn't object and was capable of.  He's probably still an ass, but you should be damn sure of the facts when you convict someone, and I couldn't be sure that this was not just regret after the fact, shame, whatnot, rather than forced intercourse.

False reports do happen, for a variety of reasons, and it seems the more heinous and infamous the crime the more careful one should be that the nastyness of the subject or allegations doesn't color the decision made as to the merits of the claims.

Not everything has a legal solution.

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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 45,432
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Re: Why is rape wrong? [Re: johnm214]
    #14478077 - 05/19/11 11:29 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

I had two incidents with women over the years that were the antithesis to this type of situation.

Both women (years apart) asked to sleep over, but told me directly that they explicitly did NOT want to have sex. I agreed and made no attempt.

The first woman never spoke to me again. Her friends told me she was pissed for me not taking her. Did I not find her attractive? Did I need a written invitation? Hell, She was in her underwear lying next to me, how much clearer could she make her desire known?

The second woman I had pursued for months and then gave up because she was in a committed relationship, then one night to my surprise and delight, she asked me out and wined and dined me. Hottie: "OC, I am too tipsy to drive home, Can I stay the night without us having sex?" Me: "Um... OK."

I kiss her goodnight, but not too passionately as it is impossible to sleep with an erection. We lay quietly side-by-side in bed for like 20 minutes in the dark. Suddenly she pops up and jumps on top of me. "You silly! You didn't think we were just going to sleep did you?" We then proceeded to have the most amazing sex ever.

Conclusion: When a woman says "No!", she could mean yes, no or maybe.


--------------------

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OfflineFraggin
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Registered: 01/05/05
Posts: 8,707
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Re: Why is rape wrong? [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #14478258 - 05/19/11 12:03 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

:facepalm:

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OfflinegrimR
hippiousmaximous
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Registered: 03/29/06
Posts: 1,235
Loc: North America
Last seen: 8 years, 2 days
Re: Why is rape wrong? [Re: Fraggin]
    #14478503 - 05/19/11 12:57 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

this era keeps us too busy to appreciate rape. I mean who can afford to get raped randomly wen we have so much to do... back in more primitive times rape was probably much more appreciated than it is today :thumbup:


--------------------
- grimR


-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
http://egolost.com 
"I am already given to the power that rules my fate. And I cling to nothing, so I will have nothing to defend. I have no thoughts, so I will see. I fear nothing, so I will remember myself."

- Don Juan teachings

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OfflinexFrockx
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Registered: 09/17/06
Posts: 10,455
Loc: Northeast
Last seen: 26 days, 6 hours
Re: Why is rape wrong? [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #14478521 - 05/19/11 01:01 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

It's like in telemarketing, no's are maybe's until they hang up.  Uhh...

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OfflinegrimR
hippiousmaximous
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Registered: 03/29/06
Posts: 1,235
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Re: Why is rape wrong? [Re: xFrockx]
    #14478574 - 05/19/11 01:13 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

dont give up hope. keep casting ur rod n eventually you shall catch one that takes  :bonghit3: :smoker:


--------------------
- grimR


-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
http://egolost.com 
"I am already given to the power that rules my fate. And I cling to nothing, so I will have nothing to defend. I have no thoughts, so I will see. I fear nothing, so I will remember myself."

- Don Juan teachings

Edited by grimR (05/19/11 01:16 PM)

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OfflineOrium
NEWB
Female


Registered: 05/12/11
Posts: 35
Last seen: 11 years, 4 months
Re: Why is rape wrong? [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #14478663 - 05/19/11 01:32 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

OrgoneConclusion said:
I had two incidents with women over the years that were the antithesis to this type of situation.

Both women (years apart) asked to sleep over, but told me directly that they explicitly did NOT want to have sex. I agreed and made no attempt.

The first woman never spoke to me again. Her friends told me she was pissed for me not taking her. Did I not find her attractive? Did I need a written invitation? Hell, She was in her underwear lying next to me, how much clearer could she make her desire known?

The second woman I had pursued for months and then gave up because she was in a committed relationship, then one night to my surprise and delight, she asked me out and wined and dined me. Hottie: "OC, I am too tipsy to drive home, Can I stay the night without us having sex?" Me: "Um... OK."

I kiss her goodnight, but not too passionately as it is impossible to sleep with an erection. We lay quietly side-by-side in bed for like 20 minutes in the dark. Suddenly she pops up and jumps on top of me. "You silly! You didn't think we were just going to sleep did you?" We then proceeded to have the most amazing sex ever.

Conclusion: When a woman says "No!", she could mean yes, no or maybe.




Wow...  I'm sorry that shit happens.  Some people are really stupid about this kinda shit.  I'd be happy that you didn't do anything - it really shows that you can be trusted. 

Just be safe and go with no means no unless they initiate it like what happened in the second case.  No means no, but one can change their mind after the alcohol loosens things up... But they have to be the ones to initiate it at that point. Others who are too afraid to say what they want are probably full of shit anyway, no loss to you.


--------------------

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Invisiblejohnm214
Male User Gallery
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Registered: 05/31/07
Posts: 17,582
Loc: Americas
Re: Why is rape wrong? [Re: Orium]
    #14478836 - 05/19/11 02:09 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Orium said:


Wow...  I'm sorry that shit happens.  Some people are really stupid about this kinda shit.  I'd be happy that you didn't do anything - it really shows that you can be trusted. 

Just be safe and go with no means no unless they initiate it like what happened in the second case.  No means no, but one can change their mind after the alcohol loosens things up... But they have to be the ones to initiate it at that point. Others who are too afraid to say what they want are probably full of shit anyway, no loss to you.





Well, I think the whole point of this was that no doesn't neccesarily mean no.  I don't think cautionary advice is particularly needed however: I find it hard to believe someone could rape someone as a result of an innocent misunderstanding unless the victim was mentally ill or something and not with full mental/physical faculties.  I don't really understand the whole "no means no" stuff- it seems relatively obvious and not particularly helpful.  This may just be my bias though- as a male who believes the differences between the sexes in regards to sexuality is mostly cultural and that males get a bad rap more for cultural and physical reasons than anything inherent.


Orgone's older than a lot of people here though, so perhaps this was 'a different time'.  I've never experienced anything similar and would find the whole thing kinda creepy, honestly, if someone acted like that.  That sounds like exactly the kinda person who is so hung up on self doubt and judgment that they'd be the type to accuse you of rape if it was just regret, et cet.  Either way, its weird, and not at all attractive.

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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 45,432
Loc: Under the C
Re: Why is rape wrong? [Re: Orium]
    #14478852 - 05/19/11 02:12 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Wow...  I'm sorry that shit happens.




Me, too! I hate amazing sex. :wink:


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