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OfflineZenXi6
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Tibetan Freedom - A real nation, or a long lost part of China?
    #14476585 - 05/19/11 01:53 AM (13 years, 3 days ago)

So, I've always been fairly pro Tibetan freedom, but I know there are plenty that believe there is a lot more to the argument, and in my years, I've realised it's harder to find objective fact amongst tainted media stories and people's biases and the like.

I've had a discussion with a friend on Facebook who used to come and do Christiany stuff at my high school.  Now he's living in Hong Kong and spreading Christianity around.. I think.

It goes like this:

Quote:

Hey, I realised that you may have a unique perspective on something of interest to me - Tibet. How do you view China's occupation of Tibet / What do you hear in China of the occupation?


Do you remember the Chinese protests in International cities all over the world in 2008? Around the Beijing Olympics and the riots. These protests from Chinese in cities all over the world surly highlight one thing. The issue is more complicated then the Western media paints it.
     
I've no doubt about the complexity surrounding it.. I remember protests from the Tibetans and Tibetan-sympathisers around the time of the last olympics, but there still seems to be an overriding factor that the Chinese invaded Tibet, and are now aiming for cultural and economic dominance over the region.

     
The historic background is a lot more complicated. The Central Government give loads of freedom to the region. Preserving a lot of their culture as they do with Canton culture in the south.

        The Dalai Lama seems to be the only one blowing this trumpet. Historically under the Lama's it was pretty sick. Seems like a vocal minority to me.


       
This is what I've heard people say, but if it is true, I would expect to hear far more from the Tibetan's looking to get rid of the Dalai Lama and that particular system of governance. I know that to an extent, it is a theocracy, but is this better than China's Capitalist-communist-dictatorship machine?

It seems that the whole "Dalai Lama blowing the trumpet" thing is not something spoken from Tibetan mouths, nor Tibetan's in exhile, who had to leave their country due to monastery burnings and attacks on monks 60 odd years ago.

From what I hear, the Chinese Government doesn't have a right to the region in the first place, so even if they truly do five them loads of freedom of religion, isn't this irrelevent if the country wasn't their business in the first place?
     
http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/2008-04/20/content_8014622_1.htm <- Just found a couple of stories about the protests you were referring to. I understand the people's frustrations, but it seems to stem from strong patriotism, rather than an understanding as to why the protests were happening in the first place. What is their answer for the invasion and occupation of Tibet 60 years ago?

( / do you know that side of it?)
     

(And, sorry for the next post again before you reply), after reading Wiki -> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tibetan_independence_movement It seems to me that the issue is, that Tibet, although a nation of unique people and culture, was not governed in a way that was easily recognisable to the world of today. It seems it is an old-world society, caught up in globalisation. Just as with the (far smalled) tribes all around the world. That said, it still seems imperialistic toward one nation's ideal to bring commerce and industry into a nation that doesn't necessarily want it, nor have they been given the chance to vote or have their say about it... That doesn't seem right, but the issue makes a little more sense..

‎"China's Capitalist-communist-dictatorship machine" is very emotive and old fashioned talk. It gives an assumption that you're talking about the same Nation as during the Cultural Revolution in pre 1989 open China, not China in 2011.

        If the Tibetan people were really ready to be a separate nation you something more like in Libya. Protests in China are usually short winded and ended using peaceful means.

   
       
I think you're standing from a very pro-Chinese stance... I don't think it's all shining lights and glory... Australia has PLENTY of problems I'd be quick to point out with its governance, and I think China has just as many.

        The Tibetan people were essentially a seperate, self-governed nation up until the 1950's when the Chinese used military force to take over...

        That's a fact - That China sent their army in to make sure they took and held control of Tibet. It's also a fact that during that time, they did attack monasteries and cultural icons in Tibet and destroy many. Going back to then, what gave China the right to invade at that time?
     

No one defends the cultural revolution or the civil wars that took place. But you also seem to take a fairly anti-China position. The Australian military in the last few years sent their military into Aboriginal areas, against the land rights they had. That also is a more complicated issue. There are many people groups within China, each with their own preserved and distinct culture. All are still Chinese even though they may be a different ethnic group who make up the Nation.

        As I said in my first reply, "The issue is more complicated then the Western media paints it."



        I know it is, but I'm trying to understand what the Chinese argument is justifying their continued occupation of what was a seperate country up until the militaristic invasion.

        And, I in no way defend the Australian government doing what it did in the N.T. They were WRONG, very wrong. They went about it all the wrong ways, it was racist ideology that backed that and painted the aboriginals as stupid alcoholics who rape their children. It is not more complicated in that sense, because they shouldn't've done that. The complication is the underlying issue that was caused by the White Australia movement, but an act like that can not or never be justified by the complications of past generations. It should not have happened and is a disgrace. I don't understand what the Chinese point is for their continued occupation, considering it seems that it was mostly an imperialistic move in the first place, and still seems to be at the moment (I've read the stats on "improved livelihood" but that is a tweaked definition, considering not everyone in the world thinks more money, better education, better healthcare etc are necessarily good things - it all depends at what costs to the people, culture and the most complex thing to put on a scale - HAPPINESS)

        I don't have an anti-China view here, just anti-imperialism. I understand the issue might have to do with the central government being confused as to where their borders were, but they lost the Tibetan plateu culturally. They weren't connected nor the same people for a long time, therefore they really should have been a different country. To me, it seems on par with say, a European nation ivading another european nation and justifying it by mentioning some historical empire that once did occupy that land. Imperialism is greedy and controlling, with little objective good coming out of it. What one nation might think of as good, another may not think so..




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Invisiblejohnm214
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Re: Tibetan Freedom - A real nation, or a long lost part of China? [Re: ZenXi6]
    #14476629 - 05/19/11 02:16 AM (13 years, 3 days ago)

Sounds like that dude is buying the propoganda, personally.


Yes, China is better than the absolute hellish land it was during Mao's reign, and yes, they have instuted a bunch of capitalist reforms, but they still maintain the legality of all the bullshit they did during Mao's time and haven't ever really dealt with it.  He says that nobody defends the cultural revolution and great leap forward, but Mao's picture still hangs like a god over the country's buildings, and they pretty much blamed all the crap he did on some patzies in order to not have to deal with the conflict between their propoganda and the obvious reality that everyone could see.  It also prevented the government and chinese people from having any official recognition of the problems inherent in dictatorial/totalitarian oligarchies like the past and present Chinese states.  As a result, they never had the discussions and recognition of a problem that, say, Germany had after WWII .  Today, they still have a totalitarian state, lack of basic rights like freedom of speech, religion, right to jury trial or due process before being jailed or having your organs taken from you, and its still a paranoid, closed country like the Stalinist states.

China is only 'good' or 'better' in comparison to themselves some years ago and perhaps the worst of the oppressive states (DPRK, perhaps Myanmar, et cet), which isn't saying much, and they still won't even admit to themselves or their people that they did anything wrong- blaming it on various cliques they scapegoated, always the stalinist solution.



EDIT:  Lol, I notice he throws in the whol "western media" criticism that seems so popular amongst the deranged and liberal on this board (two different classes, not claiming they're the same thing).  I really wonder if he's comparing this to Chinese media, or what exactly 'Eastern Media" is supposed to refer to?  I have no trouble believing Chinese media is more consistant and coherent- totalitarian control/ownership of the media and all communication media does that nicely.

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Invisiblememes
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Re: Tibetan Freedom - A real nation, or a long lost part of China? [Re: ZenXi6]
    #14477108 - 05/19/11 06:28 AM (13 years, 3 days ago)

your friend has some points.  but so you do you.

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