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OfflineLightShedder
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The catastrophe that mankind will leave behind, and ideas to counter effects
    #14470692 - 05/17/11 10:55 PM (13 years, 5 days ago)

If you've got any ideas on manmade technology that ,upon mans inability to maintain once he's wiped out, will leave behind nasty effects on the planet then post em here. Anything like nuclear power plants, oil pipelines, stored diseases etc.

More importantly, help come up with ideas to remedy such technological malfunctions and post them here too.


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InvisibleSleepwalker
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Re: The catastrophe that mankind will leave behind, and ideas to counter effects [Re: LightShedder] * 3
    #14471324 - 05/18/11 01:24 AM (13 years, 5 days ago)

Who cares? The remaining life will adapt to whatever environment remains.

You know oxygen came about as essentially a poisonous pollutant?

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Invisiblekoraks
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Re: The catastrophe that mankind will leave behind, and ideas to counter effects [Re: Sleepwalker] * 2
    #14471480 - 05/18/11 02:12 AM (13 years, 5 days ago)

Quote:

Oweyervishice said:
Who cares? The remaining life will adapt to whatever environment remains.




This. The whole concept of 'malfunctions' is based on an implicit assumption that the world after we've gone is supposed to work in a particular way. Which isn't the case; life will simply adapt.

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OfflineLightShedder
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Re: The catastrophe that mankind will leave behind, and ideas to counter effects [Re: koraks]
    #14472488 - 05/18/11 10:27 AM (13 years, 4 days ago)

Don't be all "it is what it is".

Think.

Not too hard, just a little.

The entire atmosphere is filled with the radiation from 500+ nuclear power plants melting down, eventually megatons of poisonous gas, which no living creature would adapt to, will be packing our atmosphere as well. Massive catastrophic earthquakes from disturbances in the faultline after our oil drilling plants burst and malfunction......
And u quoted me saying "malfunction" is based on some irrelevant assumption, no I said technological malfunction, meaning the technology ceases to work properly and has a strong influence on the condition of the planet. I wouldn't mind letting the earth do whatever it's gonna do naturally knowing that our technology isn't going to cause a significant change in it's functioning.
I don't see any current life on this planet withstanding such a catastrophe. The thread is not titled "do you care if all life will be wiped out after humans are gone?"

I, personally do, and just for fun am interested in plans to prevent such a catastrophe from occurring.

If you dint give a shit about life remaining on this planet then don't bother telling me about it in this thread because it's irrelevant. Thanks.


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Edited by LightShedder (05/18/11 10:38 AM)

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OfflineLightShedder
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Re: The catastrophe that mankind will leave behind, and ideas to counter effects [Re: koraks]
    #14472499 - 05/18/11 10:31 AM (13 years, 4 days ago)

Quote:

koraks said:
Quote:

Oweyervishice said:
Who cares? The remaining life will adapt to whatever environment remains.




This. The whole concept of 'malfunctions' is based on an implicit assumption that the world after we've gone is supposed to work in a particular way. Which isn't the case; life will simply adapt.




I'm not assuming anything is "supposed to work in a particular way".

But you are implying that because you don't believe so, you're content with us causing the destruction of every creature because "nothing is supposed to work in any particular way"

I am in such admiration of your non-dualistic philosophy!


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OfflineLightShedder
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Re: The catastrophe that mankind will leave behind, and ideas to counter effects [Re: LightShedder]
    #14472508 - 05/18/11 10:34 AM (13 years, 4 days ago)

I'll start the thread off by pasting a post I made in another thread in regards to a solution for the NPPs.



"Have a computerized system in place with every facility that requires a password to be typed in every day. If the password is ever not typed in every day, then after 3 non-password-authorized days, the computer engages a deconstruction program on the reactors uranium/plutonium etc. with equipment installed into facility. This way, if were not around for 3 days it'd be a good indicator that it has got to be disabled within 3 weeks or however long the generators would last."


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Offlinedjnoktirnal
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Re: The catastrophe that mankind will leave behind, and ideas to counter effects [Re: LightShedder]
    #14472551 - 05/18/11 10:44 AM (13 years, 4 days ago)

Quote:

LightShedder said:
, stored diseases etc.

The entire atmosphere is filled with the radiation from 500+ nuclear power plants melting down, eventually megatons of poisonous gas, which no living creature would adapt to, will be packing our atmosphere as well. Massive catastrophic earthquakes from disturbances in the faultline after our oil drilling plants burst and malfunction......





um... maybe a better understanding of how some of this works would be required to know that mere absense of humans does not mean disaster. In fact, the end result would be a planet similar to the one that existed before our arrival on the scene.
Stored diseases? Where did we collect these from? Did we not wipe some of these organisms from the globe?(destruction of nature?) Some diseases only exist in CDC labs.
Power plants are mostly automated. Hydroelectric dams could possibly proce electricty for 50yrs or more with no human intervention. Nuclear plants have an automatic shutdown feature. For 500 plants across the world to be melting down, some catastrophe would have to cause damage. With damage that widespread across the globe, some global natural disaster would have had to occur; in which case the planet's remaining life will have much bigger problems than what WE left behind. Nature works with or without us... we should not presume to think we know how to "fix" nature. We can't engineer the planet's environment without harmful consequences.


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WWJDWWMD's?

What Would Jesus Do With Weapons of Mass Destruction?

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OfflineLightShedder
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Re: The catastrophe that mankind will leave behind, and ideas to counter effects [Re: djnoktirnal]
    #14472572 - 05/18/11 10:49 AM (13 years, 4 days ago)

Before you tell someone who's obviously done far more research than yourself, why dont you actually go take your own advice?

Look at links I posted in the overpopulation thread and you'll be guided in the direction towards some truth.


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OfflineLightShedder
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Re: The catastrophe that mankind will leave behind, and ideas to counter effects [Re: djnoktirnal]
    #14472577 - 05/18/11 10:50 AM (13 years, 4 days ago)

Before you tell someone who's obviously done far more research than yourself to do research, why dont you actually go take your own advice?

Look at links I posted in the overpopulation thread and you'll be guided in the direction towards some truth.


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OfflineLightShedder
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Re: The catastrophe that mankind will leave behind, and ideas to counter effects [Re: LightShedder]
    #14472621 - 05/18/11 10:59 AM (13 years, 4 days ago)

Are you sure NPP have automated shutdown features??? I've read a lot that would confirm that they don't.


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Offlinedjnoktirnal
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Re: The catastrophe that mankind will leave behind, and ideas to counter effects [Re: LightShedder]
    #14472669 - 05/18/11 11:10 AM (13 years, 4 days ago)

actually they do
check out the incidents at Browns Ferry Nuclear Power Plant, run by TVA. Last month, tornadoes took out all electricity to the plant. Backup generators came online. The reactor shut itself down. This is the way they are designed to work. Obviously, with major damage this is not always the case. Fukushima tried to shut itself down.... just too much damage from the earthquake and following tsunami. I have done research. It's pretty much all I do. I read 5-6 hours a day.
From what I have observed in life, humans seem to do more harm than good when trying to fix something we don't even know for sure is broken, because we don't fully understand it. I believe we have begun using technologies too early, without understanding consequences.
Also, i fail to see the similarities between a planet overpopulated with Humans and one with none.
Why are ALL humans going to gone? Will the event that removes us from the planet leave all other species unharmed?
Would "bad" things happen if we all were gone? I think so. Everything we build will eventually crumble. But would the tragedy not be much worse, if the same events occurred with us here?
I'm not getting what specific things would harm the planet without active human participation. For example, dams would eventually fail, releasing captive waters - the river returns to its natural state. Locally, wildlife will die, but not widespread. If stored diseases are released, with the exception of bio engineered or weaponized bugs, things just go back to the way they were before we captured said disease. Bio-weapons usually target humans if im not mistaken, so they probably wouldn't survive long without us.
Personally, I just don't see much to actively fear. Definitely not enough to stir up fears in others. Besides if ALL humans are gone, it doesn't matter anyway. Sustainable living should be a means of preservation of our species. Not preservation of all other species at the expense of our eradication.


--------------------
WWJDWWMD's?

What Would Jesus Do With Weapons of Mass Destruction?

Edited by djnoktirnal (05/18/11 11:28 AM)

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InvisibleDieCommie

Registered: 12/11/03
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Re: The catastrophe that mankind will leave behind, and ideas to counter effects [Re: koraks]
    #14472771 - 05/18/11 11:28 AM (13 years, 4 days ago)

Quote:

Oweyervishice said:
Who cares? The remaining life will adapt to whatever environment remains.

You know oxygen came about as essentially a poisonous pollutant?



Quote:

koraks said:
Quote:

Oweyervishice said:
Who cares? The remaining life will adapt to whatever environment remains.




This. The whole concept of 'malfunctions' is based on an implicit assumption that the world after we've gone is supposed to work in a particular way. Which isn't the case; life will simply adapt.





Great posts, I agree whole heartedly.

If we dont leave behind broken nuclear waste containers, then we deny future species the ability utilize that unique environment.  Choosing not to leave nuclear waste is still making a choice, a choice that is against one future species and for another.  All man's 'waste' can be viewed as such.  For every six pack plastic ring we cut up - we deny some species a meal.

If we choose not to decide we still have made a choice.

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Invisiblekoraks
Registered: 06/02/03
Posts: 26,729
Re: The catastrophe that mankind will leave behind, and ideas to counter effects [Re: LightShedder]
    #14472772 - 05/18/11 11:28 AM (13 years, 4 days ago)

Quote:

LightShedder said:
But you are implying that because you don't believe so, you're content with us causing the destruction of every creature because "nothing is supposed to work in any particular way"

I am in such admiration of your non-dualistic philosophy!



You make the false assumption that, because I know that life will adapt through processes of evolution to whatever mess we leave behind whenever humanity ceases to exist, I don't care about how we treat our environment. Again, that is a false assumption.

Anyway, what you seem to be trying to say, is that our current use of technology will ultimately lead to undesirable results, and our current behavior is therefore maybe even immoral. My response to that is that nature itself has, in my firm belief, no inherent concept of morality; not as an abstract concept, and not in the form of specific norms. Normative thinking is a human construct, and hence, when humans seize to be, our norms seize to be. The 'undesirable' results I mention are an example of what a human being considers as essentially 'wrong'. However, 'wrong' doesn't exist in nature outside the human mind. When we are gone, our concepts of right and wrong will be gone along with us. The fact that we may (will) leave an environment that is uninhabitable to humans is then irrelevant, because we are gone already. Whatever is left of nature will adapt to the circumstances. And maybe, somewhere very far in the future, some emergent life form will reinvent normative thinking, and the concepts of right and wrong. It would be interesting to see how the specific implementation of those concepts will look like: i.e. what will they (the intelligent species that comes long after we've gone) consider as right and wrong? I believe that it is highly unlikely that they will have exactly the same general conceptions of right and wrong that we humans have (apart from the fact that in this respect, humans themselves are very much divided to begin with).

I ask you then: what is the relevance of applying our human norms to a world in which humans have ceased to be, as you essentially asked in your initial question? I'm not trying to prove you wrong here, I'm just pointing towards a very fundamental philosophical issue that your question relies on, and I think it's too easy to step over it by attempting to insult those who bring it to the fore. You want discussion? Then you'll get it. Then don't whine if it goes somewhere where you appear to be unable to follow it.

Quote:

LightShedder said:
Are you sure NPP have automated shutdown features??? I've read a lot that would confirm that they don't.



Then you haven't really read much. Here's a very brief overview of what you've missed in your 'research':
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scram
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_safety_systems

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Offlinedjnoktirnal
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Re: The catastrophe that mankind will leave behind, and ideas to counter effects [Re: koraks]
    #14472865 - 05/18/11 11:44 AM (13 years, 4 days ago)

Quote:

koraks said:
Quote:

LightShedder said:
But you are implying that because you don't believe so, you're content with us causing the destruction of every creature because "nothing is supposed to work in any particular way"

I am in such admiration of your non-dualistic philosophy!



You make the false assumption that, because I know that life will adapt through processes of evolution to whatever mess we leave behind whenever humanity ceases to exist, I don't care about how we treat our environment. Again, that is a false assumption.

Anyway, what you seem to be trying to say, is that our current use of technology will ultimately lead to undesirable results, and our current behavior is therefore maybe even immoral. My response to that is that nature itself has, in my firm belief, no inherent concept of morality; not as an abstract concept, and not in the form of specific norms. Normative thinking is a human construct, and hence, when humans seize to be, our norms seize to be. The 'undesirable' results I mention are an example of what a human being considers as essentially 'wrong'. However, 'wrong' doesn't exist in nature outside the human mind. When we are gone, our concepts of right and wrong will be gone along with us. The fact that we may (will) leave an environment that is uninhabitable to humans is then irrelevant, because we are gone already. Whatever is left of nature will adapt to the circumstances. And maybe, somewhere very far in the future, some emergent life form will reinvent normative thinking, and the concepts of right and wrong. It would be interesting to see how the specific implementation of those concepts will look like: i.e. what will they (the intelligent species that comes long after we've gone) consider as right and wrong? I believe that it is highly unlikely that they will have exactly the same general conceptions of right and wrong that we humans have (apart from the fact that in this respect, humans themselves are very much divided to begin with).

I ask you then: what is the relevance of applying our human norms to a world in which humans have ceased to be, as you essentially asked in your initial question? I'm not trying to prove you wrong here, I'm just pointing towards a very fundamental philosophical issue that your question relies on, and I think it's too easy to step over it by attempting to insult those who bring it to the fore. You want discussion? Then you'll get it. Then don't whine if it goes somewhere where you appear to be unable to follow it.

Quote:

LightShedder said:
Are you sure NPP have automated shutdown features??? I've read a lot that would confirm that they don't.



Then you haven't really read much. Here's a very brief overview of what you've missed in your 'research':
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scram
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_safety_systems


:thumbup:
i love you gave him the link to a specific emergency shutdown technology.
Without these safeties, every nuclear plant would probably already have melted down. I don't know, but I assume the NRC has documentation of every incident of a reactor automatically shutting down in the US. How many humans have died as a result of nuclear power plant incidents worldwide since the first reactor came online? Wildlife? Check the death tolls for natural disasters over the same period. Which is higher?
I tend to think that nature > humans, and nature has the abilities to destroy all life in the universe, along with the universe itself. We humans think very highly of ourselves, thinking we can rule nature and thinking we can destroy it. We would be even more arrogant to assume that nature would somehow need us back if we were gone.
Although, humans did come about to serve a purpose on the planet, as all species did. The loss of ANY species is a great loss. Nature always finds a way to fit another creature into that niche.
IMO, If you really wanna break down right and wrong, in nature, wrong is that which is impossible or goes against natural laws, and right is possible and is consistent with natural laws.


--------------------
WWJDWWMD's?

What Would Jesus Do With Weapons of Mass Destruction?

Edited by djnoktirnal (05/18/11 01:13 PM)

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InvisibleFunkMasterShroom
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Re: The catastrophe that mankind will leave behind, and ideas to counter effects [Re: djnoktirnal]
    #14475966 - 05/18/11 10:34 PM (13 years, 4 days ago)

Anyone heard of the Venus Project?






http://venusproject.com/rational-critical-thinking.html


--------------------
Why did the chicken cross the road?
To get to the other side.

"Adapt.
Adjust.
Accommodate."

"Professional help is being thought." - Bill Hicks

It would be hilarious... if it wasn't so sad...

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Invisiblekoraks
Registered: 06/02/03
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Re: The catastrophe that mankind will leave behind, and ideas to counter effects [Re: koraks]
    #14478679 - 05/19/11 01:35 PM (13 years, 3 days ago)

Quote:

koraks said:
I think it's too easy to step over it by attempting to insult those who bring it to the fore. You want discussion? Then you'll get it. Then don't whine if it goes somewhere where you appear to be unable to follow it.




I was being too harsh when I wrote this. I take this passage back. I still stand for the other things I wrote though. My point is valid. My communication was flawed though.

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Invisiblejohnm214
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Re: The catastrophe that mankind will leave behind, and ideas to counter effects [Re: DieCommie]
    #14479280 - 05/19/11 03:34 PM (13 years, 3 days ago)

Quote:

DieCommie said:
Quote:

Oweyervishice said:
Who cares? The remaining life will adapt to whatever environment remains.

You know oxygen came about as essentially a poisonous pollutant?



Quote:

koraks said:
Quote:

Oweyervishice said:
Who cares? The remaining life will adapt to whatever environment remains.




This. The whole concept of 'malfunctions' is based on an implicit assumption that the world after we've gone is supposed to work in a particular way. Which isn't the case; life will simply adapt.





Great posts, I agree whole heartedly.

If we dont leave behind broken nuclear waste containers, then we deny future species the ability utilize that unique environment.  Choosing not to leave nuclear waste is still making a choice, a choice that is against one future species and for another.  All man's 'waste' can be viewed as such.  For every six pack plastic ring we cut up - we deny some species a meal.

If we choose not to decide we still have made a choice.




Yep.  Why limit the biodiversity of our planet? Those that benefit from radiation, for example, would be stunted. 

This is a decent issue I think with a lot of the approaches to environmental protection.  The whole thing seems pretty ad hoc.  Is there any particular reason we should care about species going extinct per se?  I can dig the efforts to reduce pollution and soforth thats noxious and stinky, but nonutilitarian efforts or speculative ones (much of the global warming remediation efforts or ideas) seem to often be based on some unjustified presumptions.

Basically, the original poster seems to be begging the question of whether this would be a 'bad' situation.  Is there any particular way to tell that's persuasive?  How exactly do we decide such in the event of humans not existing?  It seems the best measures we have are basically utilitarian and based on our preferences for clean water, air, et cet.  Without us, though, does it really matter?


edit: wrote this while half-way through the thread.  Koraks said essentially the same thing as I did, didn't mean to disregard his position.  especially:  "I ask you then: what is the relevance of applying our human norms to a world in which humans have ceased to be, as you essentially asked in your initial question?"

Edited by johnm214 (05/19/11 03:37 PM)

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InvisibleFlasharaFirewind
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Re: The catastrophe that mankind will leave behind, and ideas to counter effects [Re: FunkMasterShroom]
    #14480713 - 05/19/11 08:06 PM (13 years, 3 days ago)



I like this one


--------------------
The dream is over...or has it just begun?

"Was it the trout? the tuna? No sir, it was the halibut!" - April 17 2010 trippin ballz on dxm

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InvisibleI R Crankey
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Re: The catastrophe that mankind will leave behind, and ideas to counter effects [Re: FlasharaFirewind]
    #14489159 - 05/21/11 10:58 AM (13 years, 1 day ago)

"try a google search. goodbye."

BWAHHAHAHHAHAHA
that was great :thumbup::rofl:

i wish i could have everything ill ever need/want for free.

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Re: The catastrophe that mankind will leave behind, and ideas to counter effects [Re: I R Crankey]
    #14519014 - 05/27/11 01:26 AM (12 years, 11 months ago)

"you're content with us causing the destruction of every creature "

Please tell me how we could destroy every creature.

All the environmental damage we have done, and all we will do, pales in comparison to the 100's of asteroid impacts and
super volcano eruptions that have occurred throughout earth's history.
The only thing needed to recover from these effects is time.

As long as liquid water exists on earth, life will persist.

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