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Comradez
stargazer



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What happens when we die? The problem of continuity...
#14460089 - 05/16/11 12:25 AM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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It has been one of the most burning questions of human existence: "What happens when we die?" In order to address this question, allow me to reformulate it slightly:
"What is it that maintains our sense of continuity? What is it that keeps us from experiencing the discontinuity of death?"
When I go to sleep tonight, I anticipate that I will wake up tomorrow and continue living, and I will experience myself as the *same* person as the night before, despite many changes that have occurred.
Molecularly, we are all Ships of Theseus. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ship_of_Theseus Our bodies have an entirely different set of cells every 20 years or so (for most organs, the change happens even more quickly--over the course of several years). The changeover of atoms is probably even more rapid--I am constantly inhaling and exhaling oxygen atoms. And yet I experience continuity over those 20 years. I do not experience myself as having died just because all of my previous cells have been recycled out.
So clearly, "my" consciousness does not adhere to any particular cells.
What about brain structures? Perhaps continuity of my brain structures explains the experienced continuity of my consciousness. My brain pathways, though, undergo a similar gradual change. New ideas form, old memories are forgotten or condensed or remembered slightly differently, new mental perspectives emerge.
I might think that I experience continuity of consciousness because I have memories of a second ago, of earlier today, of yesterday, of 10 years ago.
However, this doesn't explain the experienced continuity of my consciousness either. Consider a case in the future where we have sufficient knowledge of the brain to allow someone to put me in a coma and surgically alter my brain to erase old memories and create new memories for me.
Let's say, at first, they alter something minor, like the memory of one particular event. When I awoke from the coma, would "I" still exist? Common sense would say, yes. (Consider as well that this level of minor memory alteration and re-organization probably occurs in sleep all the time).
Let's take it a bit farther, though. Let's say that the surgeons alter my memories, such that I wake up from the coma thinking that I am Joe the bus driver rather than Larry the accountant. Will "I" still exist to experience life as "Joe the bus driver"?
Before answering that question, consider the experience of any "consciousness" "inhabiting" Joe the bus driver's recently-altered brain. This consciousness will experience no discontinuity. All of its memories are of being Joe the bus driver. It will think, "Yesterday I was Joe the bus driver, 10 years ago I was Joe the bus driver, I'm still Joe the bus driver, same as ever." when, in fact, that brain had the memories of Larry the accountant just the night before.
Now, let's consider both cases:
First, the case in which "I" don't continue to exist, but where some other consciousness "experiences" being Joe the bus driver. This would imply that my consciousness adheres to a particular brain structure of "Larry the accountant."
Consider then, a case where I go to sleep one night, and mad scientists snatch my body. They map it out entirely, cell by cell, kill my original body, and reconstruct a replica of me that they place in my bed. (Or, they could have used a teleporter if they were really advanced). This replica of me will have all of the same memories that I have. In-and-of-itself, it will experience no discontinuity. "I remember going to sleep in this bed last night, I remember being Larry the accountant yesterday, 10 years ago, etc." even though it didn't exist 10 years ago.
The question is, would "I" exist within that new body? Consider that it has the same brain pathways as I used to have, so if we are going to go with the hypothesis that "my" consciousness adheres to a particular neural pathway, then we have to answer, "yes." To be sure, that body of replica cells is constructed with a new set of atoms, but we already established that a changeover of atoms was not a problem for the continuity of consciousness, as consciousness does not "adhere" to any particular atoms.
And yet, it goes against common sense that "I" would wake up that next day as Larry the accountant, same as ever. Rather, we'd expect that "I" would be dead, and that consciousness and reality for me would have ceased. That implies, though, that "my" consciousness doesn't depend on any particular pattern of neural pathways for its continuity.
Now, let's assume that "my" consciousness does not depend on any particular pattern of neural pathways for its continuity, and let's go back to the thought experiment where the mad scientists change my memories from being Larry the accountant to being Joe the bus driver in the middle of the night. Under this assumption, wouldn't I still wake up the next morning (as Joe the bus driver) and experience no discontinuity?
This is despite the fact that: 1. My body is made up of a different set of atoms. 2. My brain is made up of a different set of memories.
And yet the continuity of my consciousness ostensibly continues. How is this scenario essentially different from when we go to sleep every night and recycle only *some* of our atoms, and where *some* of our neural pathways are re-arranged? Where do you draw the line between what seems plausible as allowing for continuity of consciousness and what doesn't?
Consider that, if you accept that the memory-re-arrangement surgery is not essentially different from the gradual "Ship of Theseus" phenomenon that we experience physically and mentally all the time, and if you thus accept that it is reasonable to expect to wake up the next day as Joe the bus driver (rather than die and not experience anything), then how can you object to this seemingly radical scenario that is, nevertheless, essentially the same:
You live to be an 88 year old man. One night, you go to sleep. In your sleep, your body dies. Somewhere else in the universe, there is a body consisting of different atoms and different neural pathways.
WHAT IS TO KEEP "YOU" FROM WAKING UP THE NEXT DAY WITH THE EXPERIENCE OF BEING THAT PERSON, AS IF YOU HAD ALWAYS BEEN THAT PERSON??????!!!!
If my reasoning has been sound, then the answer is: ABSOLUTELY NOTHING.
I suppose it could even be an animal...or anything. Where do you draw the line between something that has neural pathways, and something that doesn't? What about waking up as a C. Elegans organism?
Perhaps this is what happens when you die? Perhaps, in a split-second that lasts an eternity, you get to choose. It would be like reincarnation, but without the moral ranking of "advancing" or "falling back," necessarily.
In fact, during salvia trips on several occasions I have had the same very strange thought arise--the remembrance of having made a choice to inhabit this life long ago, that I had long forgotten. However, I am not one to give credence to unsupported salvia hallucinations, which is why I undertook this line of thought, to see if there was any way it could be justified.
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I suppose that what I am really pointing towards is something that is not really all that new--the idea that the continuity of subjective experience can only really be explained if we are essentially "souls."
This conclusion all stems from the problem of: why does subjective experience exist at all? Imagine a robot copy of me with the same circuit pathways, the same mechanical workings of its "brain" as mine. If it also has a similar body as me, it can say, write, and do all of the objective things that I can do, including write this post--and yet, it might not experience subjective consciousness at all!
Some would argue that it necessarily would--that subjective consciousness is an inherent epiphenomenon of certain brain circuits.
Okay, I could see how one particular subjective consciousness could emerge for a thin slice of time associated with a particular brain circuit. Why, then, would a different subjective consciousness not emerge a thin slice of time later with the emergence of a slightly different brain circuit? Why do we experience continuity when our brains, the things giving rise to the epiphenomenon of consciousness, are changing?
Consider another thought experiment. I'll call this one the "impostor demon." Let's say, during a trip, you experience completely dissociation from your body and lose all identification with your mind; instead, you look upon your thoughts entirely as an outside observer, powerless to control their course.
Now, let's say that you never actually come down from this trip. Instead, you observe a different consciousness, an impostor demon, resume the running of your body and mind during what should have been the come-down from the trip. You remain powerless to control your body or your thoughts. Instead, you observe this impostor-demon working, and you see that its consciousness is working with the same neural circuits that you had before, such that it produces the same objective behaviors and utterances that you would have before. Accordingly, your friends and parents don't suspect anything to be amiss; for all they can tell, you've returned to normal, so of course they will do nothing to help you restore your self-controllership. A frightening prison indeed! Meanwhile, your subjective experience is still divorced from the workings of your mind and body, and it is a different subjective experience that now experiences the "control" of your mind and body.
What happens if you ever do get control over your body and mind back? Will that other consciousness experience the end of ITS existence?
Following this line of thought, do we perhaps actually give rise to separate consciousnesses, embodied not in some hyper-dimensional space, but in OUR OWN BRAINS (in a very material fashion consistent with science) that, nevertheless, experience FROM THEIR SUBJECTIVE POINT OF VIEW, a sort of birth when you give rise to their existence by commencing the trip, and then death when the trip ends????
If conscious subjectivity is an epiphenomenon of certain brain circuits, then why could there not be several instances of it at once if there are several instances of that brain circuitry being run?
Think about it: if we applied the same reasoning to other physical human beings as we usually do to these "DMT machine elves" and whatnot, we would conclude that other people lack subjective consciousness, even despite displaying the objective behaviors and utterances correlating with the presence of subjective consciousness. Well, these DMT entities appear to be enormously intelligent--intelligent in a way that could only be possible with the help of subjective consciousness. So, if they display the objective behaviors indicating subjective consciousness, how are they not subjectively conscious of their birth (in immediate retrospect), their fleeting existence, and of the ending of their existence as your brain stops running the circuits responsible for their emergence as you come down from the trip???
(Remember, though, that we established earlier that subjective consciousnesses could jump from any neural circuit to any other neural circuit that they wished, and experience no apparent discontinuity, so don't feel too bad about "killing" your DMT elves. They could choose to immediately reincarnate as a puppy, or as a C. Elegans.)
If you accept this possibility, then you also have to accept the possibility that YOU are one of those subjective consciousnesses--that YOU are the product of someone else's trip, and that it is some informational circuitry that is responsible for the apparent laws of physics of this universe and for the apparent necessity of your "death" at some time in the future (and your subsequent choosing of some other slice of reality to experience).
I will admit that these conclusions all seem too bizarre to take seriously--and yet, I tried to be very careful in arriving at them.
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They say that life's a carousel / Spinning fast, you've got to ride it well / The world is full of kings and queens / Who blind your eyes and steal your dreams / It's heaven and hell - Ronnie James Dio (RIP)
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OrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group



Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 45,432
Loc: Under the C
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Re: What happens when we die? The problem of continuity... [Re: Comradez]
#14460182 - 05/16/11 12:47 AM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
WHAT IS TO KEEP "YOU" FROM WAKING UP THE NEXT DAY WITH THE EXPERIENCE OF BEING THAT PERSON, AS IF YOU HAD ALWAYS BEEN THAT PERSON??????!!!!
If my reasoning has been sound, then the answer is: ABSOLUTELY NOTHING.
That is a mighty big caveat with huge chasm jumps. This reminds me a poster here who could make God a reality out of walls of text and mind-bending pseudo-logic.
Quote:
the idea that the continuity of subjective experience can only really be explained if we are essentially "souls."
That is truly the only possibility? Try reading up on some neuroscience.
Better still, try living with a a person with Alzheimer's, brain damage or senior dementia. It is beyond obvious that consciousness is a property of brain function.
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Edited by OrgoneConclusion (05/16/11 01:54 AM)
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Comradez
stargazer



Registered: 03/21/10
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Re: What happens when we die? The problem of continuity... [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
#14460236 - 05/16/11 01:04 AM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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I do not so much dispute that consciousness is a property of brain function, but rather, I ask: whose brain function? Why is the brain function of this particular collection of cells important for the continuity of my consciousness, when these cells will be recycled out anyways without my experiencing any loss of continuity?
Certainly, memories are essential for providing a sense of continuity, so I would not expect brains with Alzheimer's or dementia to be giving rise to consciousness. But once again, there's the question of: which brain's memories? Give my brain a *different set* of memories, and will "I" still wake up the next day (except now under the impression that I have always been this other person)?
If you are willing to respond affirmatively, then I have to ask: what could it be about a particular brain, apart from its atoms, cells, or memories that gives a person the experience of being the same person? If you say:
same brain = same consciousness
Then what is it about that brain that provides the experience of continuity of consciousness? Because it is not continuity of physical matter--nor need it be continuity of memories. Certainly, if all memories are erased, then there is no place for consciousness in that brain. But what about a person living next door, with a brain with different cells and different memories?
How can my consciousness jump from one brain to another brain that has been made different across time (though it resides in the same skull, which shouldn't matter, obviously), and not be able to jump from one brain to another that happens to reside in a different skull? In the latter case, I will still experience continuity--I will think that my consciousness has always been residing in that (new) brain, because my consciousness will be working off of its memories.
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They say that life's a carousel / Spinning fast, you've got to ride it well / The world is full of kings and queens / Who blind your eyes and steal your dreams / It's heaven and hell - Ronnie James Dio (RIP)
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Cups
technically "here"


Registered: 12/24/09
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Re: What happens when we die? The problem of continuity... [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
#14461002 - 05/16/11 07:55 AM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
OrgoneConclusion said: Better still, try living with a a person with Alzheimer's, brain damage or senior dementia. It is beyond obvious that consciousness is a property of brain function.
I visited my grandmother last month and she has early stage alzheimers among other things. I sat there over 4 days and watched this brain try to put on the front of a continuous personality, but with enough observation it became obvious that what I was observing was some kind of tape recording type thing.
The same emotions, memories, etc presented over and over again to pass the time while her lungs kept breathing.
It was very insightful and disturbing at the same time.
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xFrockx


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Re: What happens when we die? The problem of continuity... [Re: Cups]
#14461072 - 05/16/11 08:20 AM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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The thing about finding another person with the same neural pathways in the universe is that in order to have the exact same brain connections and whatnot, they would have to have lived EXACTLY the SAME life as YOU.
If the universe comes full circle, in orther words, repeats itself, when you die you will be born again as yourself, and live the exact same life over and over again for all eternity. Your consciousness does not travel anywhere, it is not a thing. Your consciousness, being exactly what is in your brain, can only be returned to if your life is returned to, assuming that there really is no "soul" or "consciousness substance" which there seems no evidence of.
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Solomon Ash
Nudibranch

Registered: 05/16/11
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Re: What happens when we die? The problem of continuity... [Re: Comradez]
#14461157 - 05/16/11 09:08 AM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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Great post , very interesting question.
The basic issue - if "self-hood" is not in our cells, or our memories, where is it?
How can we perceive a continuity of self, if we have neither the same bodies, nor the same personalities, nor the same memories or minds during the course of our lives?
I see two major possibilities. One, like you say, is that we have some basic principle (call it a soul) that makes us remain fundamentally the same even in the face of drastic changes and transformations.
Another is that the continuity of self is in some ways an illusion, and a fragile one at that. In mental illness, under chemical suppression (disassociative or anesthetics) or during dreamless sleep, the sense of self collapses, only to be reassembled somehow later.
Perhaps sense of "self" is an emergent phenomenon of consciousness but not actually fundamental to awareness. This would explain the "clear light" awareness accessed in deep meditation, in which there is Consciousness without any sense of self or "I".
And perhaps consciousness is an ambient phenomenon pervading nature. Organic structures like our brains function as interface machinery for being manipulated by or used by consciousness. When our brains deteriorate in old age as with Alzheimer's, the reception becomes fuzzy. Thus the amount of consciousness in the universe is unchanged, and the "universal mind" remains eternal and lucid, but the amount of mind flowing in to that organic body is reduced, like a radio with bad reception.
When we die, the awareness or Logos that was interfacing with our brains saturates back out into the Noetic field. Thus mind could be eternal and immortal even as bodies remain transient and temporary.
Most likely then, "personality" is what occurs at the intersection or interface of mind and body. When mind is joined with body, personality emerges. When mind returns to mind (intelligent-spirit?) then body returns to matter and personality dissolves into the mind field.
I think at death we will cease to exist in the same way that an ice cube ceases to exist when melted in an ocean. Nothing of the ice cube is lost (none of its energy or substance is lost) and yet as an icecube it utterly ceases to exist.
Good post!
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Comradez
stargazer



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Re: What happens when we die? The problem of continuity... [Re: Solomon Ash]
#14463183 - 05/16/11 04:55 PM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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I like where you are going with those ideas, Solomon.
So if I understand the implications correctly, when we die, we lose consciousness but retain awareness? I have to say, I have already experienced something like that on salvia, and it really wasn't that bad. It was just unreflective, unsentient awareness of the universe...and it was really kind of peaceful and oddly familiar.
If that's what death is about, then I feel like I really need not fear it (nor need I embrace it any time soon, however, as reflective consciousness is a neat toy that I'm nowhere done playing with).
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They say that life's a carousel / Spinning fast, you've got to ride it well / The world is full of kings and queens / Who blind your eyes and steal your dreams / It's heaven and hell - Ronnie James Dio (RIP)
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MushroomTrip
Dr. Teasy Thighs



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Re: What happens when we die? The problem of continuity... [Re: Comradez]
#14463267 - 05/16/11 05:13 PM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
Comradez said: I have to say, I have already experienced something like that on salvia
Yeah, the only difference was that you still had brain activity.
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   All this time I've loved you And never known your face All this time I've missed you And searched this human race Here is true peace Here my heart knows calm Safe in your soul Bathed in your sighs
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OrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group



Registered: 04/01/07
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Re: What happens when we die? The problem of continuity... [Re: MushroomTrip]
#14463733 - 05/16/11 06:22 PM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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So there were really trillions upon trillions of differences then?
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Sunny
free-ballin



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Re: What happens when we die? The problem of continuity... [Re: Comradez]
#14463788 - 05/16/11 06:31 PM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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An interesting post, but full of holes none-the-less.
What if consciousness is an event that occurs, and not a thing you are in possession of? What if everything is subjectively consciousness, not just human beings. What if rocks remember being formed under pressure, trees being chopped down, etc.
The real paradox to discuss is whether matter manifests consciousness, or consciousness manifests matter.
There is a confliction in science about these things as well... On one hand, everything must be subjectively experienced and is therefore effected by the observer. On the other hand, the observer cannot observe lest he have a material body from which to subjectively experience.
-------------------- WAFFLEZZ!!!11!!!1!!!1!!!!
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