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Invisibledustinthewind13
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Re: Can nature be evil? [Re: xFrockx]
    #14458974 - 05/15/11 08:46 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

xFrockx said:
"I'm going to have to realize that free will doesn't exist first, right? "

No. But do you know if it does or not? For certain?




No. I don't. I have no idea. If it does, we are separated (in our minds) from the chemicals that created our ability to judge what is good or bad for us. If it doesn't exist, we are not choosing with our selves/spirit/awarness (whatever term u want to use... i have difficulty differentiating between them). It just happens. The experience that does happen, by free will or without it, does differentiate between things and does label it according to the definitions I posted. Our perception is limited and we have no idea what our experience of life is. The definitions for good or bad along with the experience does exist though. Even if its only in our mind. For example, when a baby is born he cries if he is slapped on the behind. If he wouldn't cry, it would be a sign of abnormality. He doesn't want the pain. He feels its bad, if he doesn't think it.

Our experience is though by many to be collective. People who adhere to the belief that the collective unconsciousness exists would agree that good and bad are integral to human nature. You can still overcome good and bad and not be biased. I am just saying that I haven't meet anyone that never differentiates things on some form of a good or bad scale. Or in other words, I haven't meet anyone that has overcome everything he once labeled as good or bad or didn't need to because he was born that way. I believe the experience of good or bad is legit either as an illusion or a model of reality. IMO it is happening on a grand scale in the human race. There wouldn't be as many differences between people otherwise IMO.


--------------------
"It is the peculiar quality of a fool to perceive the faults of others and forget his own." - Marcus Tullius Cicero

"A room without books is like a body without a soul."  - Marcus Tullius Cicero

"Do not bite at the bait of pleasure, till you know there is no hook beneath it." -Thomas Jefferson

Edited by dustinthewind13 (05/15/11 08:50 PM)

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OfflinexFrockx
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Re: Can nature be evil? [Re: dustinthewind13]
    #14460898 - 05/16/11 07:05 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

"People who adhere to the belief that the collective unconsciousness exists would agree that good and bad are integral to human nature."

If this exists then were is it and how do our brains all connect to it?

Edited by xFrockx (05/16/11 07:07 AM)

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Invisibledustinthewind13
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Re: Can nature be evil? [Re: xFrockx]
    #14461312 - 05/16/11 10:09 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

xFrockx said:
"People who adhere to the belief that the collective unconsciousness exists would agree that good and bad are integral to human nature."

If this exists then were is it and how do our brains all connect to it?




I'm not sure. I am guessing it's passed down from generation to generation through DNA. It's not my idea. It only makes sense to me that it exists.

Collective Unconscious - if u feel like reading more about it.


--------------------
"It is the peculiar quality of a fool to perceive the faults of others and forget his own." - Marcus Tullius Cicero

"A room without books is like a body without a soul."  - Marcus Tullius Cicero

"Do not bite at the bait of pleasure, till you know there is no hook beneath it." -Thomas Jefferson

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Invisibleunam sanctum
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Re: Can nature be evil? [Re: xFrockx]
    #14461356 - 05/16/11 10:24 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

xFrockx said:
Can a hurricane be evil?

Can a person be evil?

Is your answer the same for both of these?




Hurricanes only form to maintain atmospheric balances, like tornadoes and storms.  So I would say no regardless of whether it is conscience or not (and who's to say they don't?).  The destruction natural disasters cause is a direct effect of us building something to be destroyed in the first place, probably after death raping the planet for those same resources. 

People, like all existing things, are only empty vessels.  I would say that certain environments, experiences, situations etc are so negative and powerful that they could aid in turning someone into a more or less "evil" person.  But we also have the ability to overcome such obstacles and let them make us better people. Personally I feel like people are inherently good at (and before) birth, and the fucked up conditions of this planet in general just get to some people. With this question it's all in the set of lenses you're using.

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OfflinexFrockx
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Re: Can nature be evil? [Re: dustinthewind13]
    #14461358 - 05/16/11 10:24 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Sorry if this sounds rude, but do you know what DNA is? DNA is like the blueprint of a house. Its the coding for the protien synthesis that goes on in an organism. DNA doesn't cause thoughts directly any more than a blueprint determines how a house will be used.

Does there need to be a collective unconsciousness for us to explain thoughts? I mean, if there were a collective unconscious how come we can disagree over the meanings of words? If we were all tapped in together in our minds, wouldn't there be fewer disagreements? Couldn't the similarities in our thoughts be explained merely by the similarity of the place we live?

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Invisibledustinthewind13
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Re: Can nature be evil? [Re: xFrockx]
    #14461579 - 05/16/11 11:26 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

I didn't say we were connected telepathically.

As far as DNA goes, it is what creates our minds. It is a blueprint for it. I know that. DNA is IMO only the reason it is passed on from human to human. After it is created we don't need to observe the DNA to observe the collective unconscious. We just need to focus on the similarities our mind has with our ancestors and the people around us. I wasn't saying DNA carries a collective unconscious blueprint. I was saying it carries a blueprint that in effect creates the collective unconscious. IMO the collective unconscious is the result of the interaction between human nature and nature over the time it took us to evolve to what we are right now. It is what never changed, because it didn't need to. I am no anthropologist, but it could be survival based. Some of it might not. I don't know. It just seems obvious to me that the human race shares certain functions the brain creates. It is what connects us as a human race. It could be based on biology. We do have the same thinking tool, do we not? If the tool is basically the same, then there should be similarities. I am not saying it is a separate layer that lies under our subconscious. I am not differentiating between the brain and mind. I have no proof for that. It is just an abstract model that makes sense to me and other people as well.

A good example would be one by Robert Anton Wilson. He said that certain animals (cant remember well) were flown over with cardboard shaped in the form of a predator. The baby birds perceived that shape and became scared. The shape for their predator was ingrained in their brain and they automatically went into fight or flight mode. This might not prove what I am talking about, but it seems to point in the right direction. There are also a bunch of other examples of the collective unconscious that make sense. Saying we are all telepathically connected would be one that makes no sense though :smile:.


--------------------
"It is the peculiar quality of a fool to perceive the faults of others and forget his own." - Marcus Tullius Cicero

"A room without books is like a body without a soul."  - Marcus Tullius Cicero

"Do not bite at the bait of pleasure, till you know there is no hook beneath it." -Thomas Jefferson

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OfflinexFrockx
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Re: Can nature be evil? [Re: dustinthewind13]
    #14464129 - 05/16/11 07:31 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

"A good example would be one by Robert Anton Wilson. He said that certain animals (cant remember well) were flown over with cardboard shaped in the form of a predator. The baby birds perceived that shape and became scared. The shape for their predator was ingrained in their brain and they automatically went into fight or flight mode. This might not prove what I am talking about, but it seems to point in the right direction. There are also a bunch of other examples of the collective unconscious that make sense. Saying we are all telepathically connected would be one that makes no sense though :smile:."

I wouldn't normally consider that thing the "collective unconscious." Those kind of things are like reflexes. The problem, I think, with calling it "collective" is that there is not really anything collective about it. Its a lot of individuals with similarities. Not everyone has the same DNA, of course, and as a result individually there are differences in how our consciousness functions. Day to day variety can seem slim, but when you look at the whole population there's an unbelievable amount of difference. So much that to call consciousness collective is to mash together something that, in reality, is unbelievably complex and different in every single person. Even identical twins receive the world from two different sets of eyes.

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InvisibleCognitive_Shift
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Re: Can nature be evil? [Re: xFrockx]
    #14465283 - 05/16/11 10:38 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Nature can be evil only to those who believe it to be...  Otherwise it just exists as is... void of words.


--------------------
L'enfer est plein de bonnes volontés et désirs

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OfflineThePhilosophizer
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Re: Can nature be evil? [Re: xFrockx]
    #14465694 - 05/17/11 12:12 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

xFrockx said:
Is human nature, nature?




Umm yes and no.

Human nature is what it is: human nature. Yes, it arises from nature and so through a simple syllogism, you'd arrive at a definite 'yes'. And human nature has changed quite a bit over the course of history. As we evolved over time, our conditions of living changed, which in turn led to changes in our priorities (hunting isn't so much of one for most of us these days, is it?), which led to different ways of thinking or prioritizing, in other words a human nature that's different than the human nature that cavemen possessed. And human nature in this modern context is a little (seemingly) paradoxical: we strive by taking resources from the very nature that created us and re-working them into unrecognizable forms.

Now, this is the society's definition of un-natural and actually has a few other names, like artificial or man-made. Artificial is a (seeming) paradox in it of itself: artificial is just a construct created through the way of thinking according to human nature. In other words, artificial is un-natural because it is natural. Paradox? Could be. Unless you see illusions as being natural parts of our world. Here's my ultimate opinion on the matter: everything artificial is just as natural as anything that grows out of the ground. Illusions are also natural. An illusion is not something tangible like a tree, but whoever said that nature only includes material objects? That would rule out consciousness as being natural. But that's illogical, if you take into account our definition of un-natural. We defined un-natural as man-made. And yes, humans give birth to other humans, so in a way consciousness is man-made, but that's not the kind of man-made we defined. We defined it as "taking resources from the very nature that created us and re-working them into unrecognizable forms". If we are to assume that the definition is valid, then consciousness is not artificial, so therefore it is natural.

And consciousness thrives on many different kinds of illusions that this world creates, from lies and deceptions of our society to perceptual errors, such as the the idea that the world is flat or that heaven and the earth meet at the horizon. If you are to accept that illusions are natural as well, there is no paradox. The idea that man-made is un-natural is just an illusion. Human nature is nature. Problem solved. I think :ahahaha: ........

I'm actually very curious on hearing your thoughts on this, xFrocksx (or shall I call you Mr. Socrates for solely asking questions :biggrin:)


--------------------
:pinkshroom:  :regularshroom:  :mushroomgrow: :greenshroom: :stinkyshroom: :scaryshroom: :mushdance: :dancingshroom: :cubie:  :mushroom2:  :supershroom:      :muahaha:

<<<<<<<<---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------->>>>>>>>

A game without challenges is boring. It is possible to live a happy optimistic life without being in denial about all the shit that goes on all around.
You just gotta get up and dance with the fire instead of moping about it. Be thankful for your problems.
Without them, your life would be a fucking bore.
But don't make it all about the problems. There are magnificent wonders in this world worth living for :wink:

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OfflineBlueCoyote
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Re: Can nature be evil? [Re: xFrockx]
    #14467258 - 05/17/11 10:31 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

I agree with some former poster that 'nature' always acts in a way of bringing something into balance, or act against disbalance.
I think, humans have the most potential of all things and creatures on this planet to act against that 'principle'.


--------------------
Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'

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OfflinexFrockx
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Re: Can nature be evil? [Re: BlueCoyote]
    #14467517 - 05/17/11 11:42 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

What makes things out of balance then?

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OfflineBlueCoyote
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Re: Can nature be evil? [Re: xFrockx]
    #14467535 - 05/17/11 11:47 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Self overestimation (/limited insight) ? Hehe, IDK :shrug:

I mean, nature stands for growth and progress, but in an 'universal' way, for all kind of being. If this universe is meant for overwhelming earthquakes, so it might be ha, but as I can see, we developed far ahead from those...

The EarthQuakeRider

edit: No, now I know: Death anxiety ! Hubris ! :lol: Damned, Ice, where are you :laugh:


--------------------
Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'

Edited by BlueCoyote (05/17/11 12:49 PM)

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InvisibleCognitive_Shift
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Re: Can nature be evil? [Re: xFrockx]
    #14468360 - 05/17/11 03:08 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

xFrockx said:
What makes things out of balance then?



Hurricanes, tornadoes, floods, average ocean temp changes, average surafce temp changes, average ocean salinity ect ect.  Things that according to probability shouldn't happen, but do.


--------------------
L'enfer est plein de bonnes volontés et désirs

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Invisibledustinthewind13
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Re: Can nature be evil? [Re: BlueCoyote]
    #14469371 - 05/17/11 06:46 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

xFrockx said:
"A good example would be one by Robert Anton Wilson. He said that certain animals (cant remember well) were flown over with cardboard shaped in the form of a predator. The baby birds perceived that shape and became scared. The shape for their predator was ingrained in their brain and they automatically went into fight or flight mode. This might not prove what I am talking about, but it seems to point in the right direction. There are also a bunch of other examples of the collective unconscious that make sense. Saying we are all telepathically connected would be one that makes no sense though :smile:."

I wouldn't normally consider that thing the "collective unconscious." Those kind of things are like reflexes. The problem, I think, with calling it "collective" is that there is not really anything collective about it. Its a lot of individuals with similarities. Not everyone has the same DNA, of course, and as a result individually there are differences in how our consciousness functions. Day to day variety can seem slim, but when you look at the whole population there's an unbelievable amount of difference. So much that to call consciousness collective is to mash together something that, in reality, is unbelievably complex and different in every single person. Even identical twins receive the world from two different sets of eyes.





Your DNA creates your brain. Your brain has built in functions that work unconsciously. When you're an infant you already have primitive reflexes. Reflexes are produced by the brain and are unconscious (until you reflect on them). These traits were collected from the DNA your mother and father shared. It was passed down from them. And they got theirs from their parents. That's why I would call it the collective unconscious. DNA is the blueprint for certain unconscious drives that influence our behavior. The primitive reflexes are eventually inhibited as you continue developing your brain. After the inhibition we go through a few stages of brain development that psychologists agree are the same for every genetically "normal" human. The difference is that our brain develops at different speeds and some people don't reach every stage. Eventually we are capable of feeling love, which is also a feeling many people share. It might just be chemical reactions we share, but it has been happening for thousands of years in unrelated people. The similarity between people is how the brain works (not in every aspect of course). The difference is in what it is working with. All IMO though :grin:.


--------------------
"It is the peculiar quality of a fool to perceive the faults of others and forget his own." - Marcus Tullius Cicero

"A room without books is like a body without a soul."  - Marcus Tullius Cicero

"Do not bite at the bait of pleasure, till you know there is no hook beneath it." -Thomas Jefferson

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InvisibleCognitive_Shift
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Re: Can nature be evil? [Re: dustinthewind13]
    #14469467 - 05/17/11 07:10 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

dustinthewind13 said:
Your DNA creates your brain. Your brain has built in functions that work unconsciously. When you're an infant you already have primitive reflexes. Reflexes are produced by the brain and are unconscious (until you reflect on them). These traits were collected from the DNA your mother and father shared. It was passed down from them. And they got theirs from their parents. That's why I would call it the collective unconscious.



lol your so full of shit.  Don't try to call instincts "the collective unconscious."  They are simply instincts, and there is nothing super natural or mysterious about them.


--------------------
L'enfer est plein de bonnes volontés et désirs

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Invisibledustinthewind13
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Re: Can nature be evil? [Re: Cognitive_Shift]
    #14469570 - 05/17/11 07:29 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Cognitive_Shift said:
Quote:

dustinthewind13 said:
Your DNA creates your brain. Your brain has built in functions that work unconsciously. When you're an infant you already have primitive reflexes. Reflexes are produced by the brain and are unconscious (until you reflect on them). These traits were collected from the DNA your mother and father shared. It was passed down from them. And they got theirs from their parents. That's why I would call it the collective unconscious.



lol your so full of shit.  Don't try to call instincts "the collective unconscious."  They are simply instincts, and there is nothing super natural or mysterious about them.




Are they not passed down through DNA?

"Instinct or innate behavior is the inherent inclination of a living organism toward a particular behavior."

"A reflex action, also known as a reflex, is an involuntary and nearly instantaneous movement in response to a stimulus"

I never said anything about them being supernatural or mysterious. I just said they are unconscious and we all share their function. I agree that terming it the "collective unconscious" would be wrong, because it is also applied to the definition Jung proposed. Both instincts and reflexes are unconscious. It even says instincts are inherent in the definition. The DNA was collected from your parents DNA, which was collected from their parents DNA. Maybe "inherent unconscious" would be better.


--------------------
"It is the peculiar quality of a fool to perceive the faults of others and forget his own." - Marcus Tullius Cicero

"A room without books is like a body without a soul."  - Marcus Tullius Cicero

"Do not bite at the bait of pleasure, till you know there is no hook beneath it." -Thomas Jefferson

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Offlinezoomfan
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Re: Can nature be evil? [Re: dustinthewind13]
    #14469783 - 05/17/11 08:13 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

somebodys been watching the history channel?


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Thinking is dreaming wake up and enjoy the dream.

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Invisibledustinthewind13
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Re: Can nature be evil? [Re: zoomfan]
    #14469855 - 05/17/11 08:29 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

zoomfan said:
somebodys been watching the history channel?




:lol: You got to learn from somewhere right? This was mostly google :smile:.

And just felt like I would post this. INSTINCTS

Interesting read that sort of reflects what we are talking about.

I love the last part.

Quote:

In the book An Instinct for Dragons[7] anthropologist David E. Jones suggests a hypothesis that humans, just like monkeys, have inherited instinctive reactions to snakes, large cats and birds of prey. Folklore dragons have features that are combinations of these three, which would explain why dragons with similar features occur in stories from independent cultures on all continents. Other authors have suggested that especially under the influence of drugs or in dreams, this instinct may give raise to fantasies about dragons, snakes, spiders, which makes these symbols popular in drug culture. The traditional mainstream explanation to the folklore dragons does however not rely on human instinct, but on the assumption that fossil remains of dinosaurs gave raise to similar speculations all over the world.




--------------------
"It is the peculiar quality of a fool to perceive the faults of others and forget his own." - Marcus Tullius Cicero

"A room without books is like a body without a soul."  - Marcus Tullius Cicero

"Do not bite at the bait of pleasure, till you know there is no hook beneath it." -Thomas Jefferson

Edited by dustinthewind13 (05/17/11 08:30 PM)

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OfflinexFrockx
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Re: Can nature be evil? [Re: BlueCoyote]
    #14470184 - 05/17/11 09:32 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

So are hurricanes unnatural? What about other destructive forces? Black holes? Floods? Your mom?

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OfflinexFrockx
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Re: Can nature be evil? [Re: dustinthewind13]
    #14470188 - 05/17/11 09:33 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

"I just said they are unconscious and we all share their function."

Not one single thing in the human consciousness is shared by all. Not one single thing.

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