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Shop: Kraken Kratom Red Vein Kratom   Unfolding Nature Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

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InvisibleCarl Sagan
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Registered: 04/19/11
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Re: Can nature be evil? [Re: nemesis94]
    #14455530 - 05/15/11 10:11 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

nemesis94 said:
Quote:

xFrockx said:
Can a hurricane be evil?

Can a person be evil?

Is your answer the same for both of these?



Can anything at all be evil? Or good for that matter?



Short answer is NO.  If you feel the need for control over your environment/people
then you employ these tactics of defining and judging.


--------------------
“Sacred cows make the best hamburger”

Mark Twain



Independant Research Foundation

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Invisibledustinthewind13
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Re: Can nature be evil? [Re: Carl Sagan]
    #14455967 - 05/15/11 12:20 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Cognitive_Shift said:
Quote:

xFrockx said:
Can a hurricane be evil?

Can a person be evil?

Is your answer the same for both of these?



Nature is neither good nor evil, it's just nature.  Good and evil are ideas made up by humans applied to people/places/things in response to threatening things (evil) or beneficial things (good)




I agree. Who someone is defines what is good and what is evil. It's just a label people attach to things, which inherently are neither good or bad. Plus, everyone has their own definition for these two labels.


--------------------
"It is the peculiar quality of a fool to perceive the faults of others and forget his own." - Marcus Tullius Cicero

"A room without books is like a body without a soul."  - Marcus Tullius Cicero

"Do not bite at the bait of pleasure, till you know there is no hook beneath it." -Thomas Jefferson

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Invisiblemillzy
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Re: Can nature be evil? [Re: dustinthewind13]
    #14456774 - 05/15/11 03:04 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

good and evil are entirely products of our subjective experience of an event imo.


--------------------
I'm up to my ears in unwritten words. - J.D. Salinger

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OfflineThePhilosophizer
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Re: Can nature be evil? [Re: xFrockx]
    #14456875 - 05/15/11 03:19 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

xFrockx said:
"Good and evil are ideas made up by humans applied to people/places/things in response to threatening things (evil) or beneficial things (good) "

Is this nature too?



Yes, human nature.


--------------------
:pinkshroom:  :regularshroom:  :mushroomgrow: :greenshroom: :stinkyshroom: :scaryshroom: :mushdance: :dancingshroom: :cubie:  :mushroom2:  :supershroom:      :muahaha:

<<<<<<<<---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------->>>>>>>>

A game without challenges is boring. It is possible to live a happy optimistic life without being in denial about all the shit that goes on all around.
You just gotta get up and dance with the fire instead of moping about it. Be thankful for your problems.
Without them, your life would be a fucking bore.
But don't make it all about the problems. There are magnificent wonders in this world worth living for :wink:

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Invisibledustinthewind13
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Re: Can nature be evil? [Re: ThePhilosophizer]
    #14457164 - 05/15/11 04:02 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

ThePhilosophizer said:
Quote:

xFrockx said:
"Good and evil are ideas made up by humans applied to people/places/things in response to threatening things (evil) or beneficial things (good) "

Is this nature too?



Yes, human nature.




Exactly. We all do it.


--------------------
"It is the peculiar quality of a fool to perceive the faults of others and forget his own." - Marcus Tullius Cicero

"A room without books is like a body without a soul."  - Marcus Tullius Cicero

"Do not bite at the bait of pleasure, till you know there is no hook beneath it." -Thomas Jefferson

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OfflinexFrockx
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Re: Can nature be evil? [Re: ThePhilosophizer]
    #14457213 - 05/15/11 04:08 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Is human nature, nature?

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OfflinexFrockx
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Re: Can nature be evil? [Re: dustinthewind13]
    #14457223 - 05/15/11 04:08 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Some people do, some people don't. Don't generalize like that. You can't speak for everyone.

Edited by xFrockx (05/15/11 04:09 PM)

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Invisibledustinthewind13
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Re: Can nature be evil? [Re: xFrockx]
    #14457361 - 05/15/11 04:33 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

xFrockx said:
Is human nature, nature?




Yes. Human nature is nature too. Where else would it come from?

Quote:

xFrockx said:
Some people do, some people don't. Don't generalize like that. You can't speak for everyone.




I am not generalizing as far as I know. I think subjectivity is unavoidable. Do you think food is bad or good? If you chose neither, you are only fooling yourself. Things can be beneficial(good) and malevolent(bad) or both, depending on the observer. We all label things based on their effect on us. You can't say this doesn't apply to you. You just labeled my post as "bad", since you don't think it applies to everyone. It might not, but it does apply to everyone that's subjective and that's a shit load of people (including myself).


--------------------
"It is the peculiar quality of a fool to perceive the faults of others and forget his own." - Marcus Tullius Cicero

"A room without books is like a body without a soul."  - Marcus Tullius Cicero

"Do not bite at the bait of pleasure, till you know there is no hook beneath it." -Thomas Jefferson

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OfflinexFrockx
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Re: Can nature be evil? [Re: dustinthewind13]
    #14457487 - 05/15/11 04:56 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

"Do you think food is bad or good? If you chose neither, you are only fooling yourself."

Don't tell me how to think. Food is what food is. You're the one fooling yourself.

"You just labeled my post as "bad", since you don't think it applies to everyone."

No actually you labeled my post as saying yours was bad. I said no such thing.

"It might not, but it does apply to everyone that's subjective and that's a shit load of people (including myself)."

Ok.

Edited by xFrockx (05/15/11 04:58 PM)

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Invisibledustinthewind13
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Re: Can nature be evil? [Re: xFrockx]
    #14457833 - 05/15/11 05:59 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

xFrockx said:
"Do you think food is bad or good? If you chose neither, you are only fooling yourself."

Don't tell me how to think. Food is what food is. You're the one fooling yourself.

"You just labeled my post as "bad", since you don't think it applies to everyone."

No actually you labeled my post as saying yours was bad. I said no such thing.

"It might not, but it does apply to everyone that's subjective and that's a shit load of people (including myself)."

Ok.




I already said that things aren't inherently good or bad. We make them "good"/"bad". You didn't like my post. I was guessing you labeled it as bad, since you didn't accept it and decided to discard it. I would guess you would label it as good if you agreed with it.

We might not be using the same definition for good and bad. Lets use a dictionary:

Good: of a favorable character or tendency
Bad: failing to reach an acceptable standard

I just can't accept that these definitions don't apply to the interactions between human nature and the world. They're not the only definitions for the word good, but they help me prove my point.

Saying I don't have a preference to eat food, but I do have a preference to not eat it would be fooling myself. In reality I prefer to eat food, especially if its my favorite food. How would you label the fact that I want food in order to survive? I believe eating food is of a favorable character or tendency. Eating is beneficial to your psyche and body. A good symbol for that would be the word good IMO. On the other hand you don't need a virus and probably don't want it either (virus=bad).

I did fuck up by labeling what you said though. Wasn't trying to tell you how you think. It's what I learned from psychology about the human mind. It taught me that it's symbolic and doesn't equal reality. We have all subjectively used symbols at least once in our lifetime. I have yet to meet someone who is completely objective and wants everything life has to offer equally. I think we all attach symbols such as good, better and the best sooner or latter. I don't think that what I find to be good generalizes to everyone though. I just think everyone does what I do (discriminate between things). It seems pretty obvious to me. I might be delusional though.


--------------------
"It is the peculiar quality of a fool to perceive the faults of others and forget his own." - Marcus Tullius Cicero

"A room without books is like a body without a soul."  - Marcus Tullius Cicero

"Do not bite at the bait of pleasure, till you know there is no hook beneath it." -Thomas Jefferson

Edited by dustinthewind13 (05/15/11 06:04 PM)

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OfflinexFrockx
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Re: Can nature be evil? [Re: dustinthewind13]
    #14457903 - 05/15/11 06:11 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

"You didn't like my post."

I never said that either, sheesh. Can I say anything to you without it being made personal?

"I did fuck up by labeling what you said though. Wasn't trying to tell you how you think. It's what I learned from psychology about the human mind. It taught me that it's symbolic and doesn't equal reality. We have all subjectively used symbols at least once in our lifetime. I have yet to meet someone who is completely objective and wants everything life has to offer equally. I think we all attach symbols such as good, better and the best sooner or latter. I don't think that what I find to be good generalizes to everyone though. I just think everyone does what I do (discriminate between things). It seems pretty obvious to me. I might be delusional though."


Just because you can doesn't mean you should.

Edited by xFrockx (05/15/11 06:14 PM)

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Invisibledustinthewind13
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Re: Can nature be evil? [Re: xFrockx]
    #14458234 - 05/15/11 07:02 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

"You didn't like my post."

I never said that either, sheesh. Can I say anything to you without it being made personal?


Hehe. I know what you mean. Sry. My bad :tongue:. I keep on making the same mistake. I'm pissed off today. I take shit much more personal when I'm pissed. It sounded like you thought it was bad if you use the definition I posted. My post didn't reach an acceptable standard for what we are talking about according to my subjective perspective.

Just because you can doesn't mean you should.

I haven't meet anyone who never has though. Maybe I really shouldn't generalize. It just seems like something that does generalize. I need proof to debunk what I think.


--------------------
"It is the peculiar quality of a fool to perceive the faults of others and forget his own." - Marcus Tullius Cicero

"A room without books is like a body without a soul."  - Marcus Tullius Cicero

"Do not bite at the bait of pleasure, till you know there is no hook beneath it." -Thomas Jefferson

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OfflinexFrockx
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Re: Can nature be evil? [Re: dustinthewind13]
    #14458277 - 05/15/11 07:07 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Questions are much better than proof for debunking thoughts. Just a word of advice.

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Invisibledustinthewind13
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Re: Can nature be evil? [Re: xFrockx]
    #14458498 - 05/15/11 07:36 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

xFrockx said:
Questions are much better than proof for debunking thoughts. Just a word of advice.




How should I question myself? You seem to have gone through this path.

I can ask myself if everyone likes Pink Floyd as much as I do. The answer would be no from my experience. That means its good for me and the people who like it too. The people who also like it don't necessarily like it as much as me. It's either good or bad in varying degrees to someone. I do agree with you that Pink Floyd isn't inherently good or bad though. It is good or bad to individual minds that have listened to it. Someone might have no subjective thoughts on it, but they probably have had and will on something else sooner or later.


--------------------
"It is the peculiar quality of a fool to perceive the faults of others and forget his own." - Marcus Tullius Cicero

"A room without books is like a body without a soul."  - Marcus Tullius Cicero

"Do not bite at the bait of pleasure, till you know there is no hook beneath it." -Thomas Jefferson

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OfflinexFrockx
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Re: Can nature be evil? [Re: dustinthewind13]
    #14458606 - 05/15/11 07:52 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

"How should I question myself? "

That sounds like a start.

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Invisibledustinthewind13
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Re: Can nature be evil? [Re: xFrockx]
    #14458729 - 05/15/11 08:11 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

xFrockx said:
"How should I question myself? "

That sounds like a start.




Let me guess. I'm going to have to realize that free will doesn't exist first, right? Then I will have to apply that to what I said. If free will doesn't exist, that means that what I chose to be good is just an illusion my brain creates and is inevitable. Even though my brain made me feel that eating was of a favorable character or tendency, it was just molecules tricking me. There is no difference between reality and and what I perceive it to be. My perception is only giving me a fake feeling that I prefer Pink Floyd over most bands out there. Reality isn't good or bad, which means the experience didn't happen in REALITY. Even though I could attach symbols such as good or bad to the experience it wouldn't mean anything? It's not what is really there. It's only an experience people I have meet and read about share. Am I on the right track?


--------------------
"It is the peculiar quality of a fool to perceive the faults of others and forget his own." - Marcus Tullius Cicero

"A room without books is like a body without a soul."  - Marcus Tullius Cicero

"Do not bite at the bait of pleasure, till you know there is no hook beneath it." -Thomas Jefferson

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OfflinexFrockx
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Re: Can nature be evil? [Re: dustinthewind13]
    #14458749 - 05/15/11 08:14 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

"I'm going to have to realize that free will doesn't exist first, right? "

No. But do you know if it does or not?

Edited by xFrockx (05/15/11 08:16 PM)

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InvisibleCognitive_Shift
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Re: Can nature be evil? [Re: xFrockx]
    #14458782 - 05/15/11 08:20 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Yes humans are natural... and everything we make is natural.


--------------------
L'enfer est plein de bonnes volontés et désirs

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OfflinexFrockx
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Re: Can nature be evil? [Re: Cognitive_Shift]
    #14458888 - 05/15/11 08:33 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Is anything not natural?

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InvisibleCognitive_Shift
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Re: Can nature be evil? [Re: xFrockx]
    #14458931 - 05/15/11 08:40 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

My personal philosophical POV - No... we simply use "man made" to explain technically natural events because humans did them.  People like to think they are somehow special or inherently different from nature, and this is why we use words like artificial, man made ect ect. 

Cultural (public) POV - Yes man made things are not natural because humans made them.


--------------------
L'enfer est plein de bonnes volontés et désirs

Edited by Cognitive_Shift (05/15/11 08:48 PM)

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