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OfflinexFrockx
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Can nature be evil? * 1
    #14452989 - 05/14/11 06:56 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Can a hurricane be evil?

Can a person be evil?

Is your answer the same for both of these?


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InvisibleDiploidM
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Re: Can nature be evil? [Re: xFrockx]
    #14453149 - 05/14/11 07:33 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

You're gonna have to define evil if you want any kind of meaningful answers.


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


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OfflineRagecage
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Re: Can nature be evil? [Re: xFrockx] * 1
    #14453155 - 05/14/11 07:36 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Good Question!

First you must define evil. I consider evil to be pure negative energy that has consciousness.

A hurricane is destructive, it causes entropy, not harmony. This means it is a negative energy. But does it have consciousness? As far as i'm aware, the answer is no (although one could presume otherwise as we can't prove that it doesn't have consciousness). Therefore, a force of nature such as a hurricane probably can't be evil.

A person does have consciousness and can create either negative or positive energy. However, people have the ability to change their energy from negative to positive and vice versa, and since we are defining evil in this case to be PURE 100% negative energy w/consciousness, it is hard to believe that people can be truly evil when they are able to change their state (I think consciousness that is entirely just one type of energy probably cannot change their energy state, because being able to fluctuate between both means that one has both).

Also, you could say that nature could be evil, as animals, and most likely plants too, have a consciousness.
However, with exception to humans, all living organisms we know of abide by the natural cycle of life which keeps everything in balance, which in the larger scheme of things produces harmony, not entropy. So with animals and other living organisms, it is difficult to determine whether they can be "evil," or not, but its certainly possible.

In regards to positive energy/harmony versus negative energy/entropy, I theorize that if the universe were completely in a state of one or the other, both would produce the same result, which is a united oneness of the universe (which on a further tangent, I believe is what ends one universe and begins another, aka the big bang). Its like if you go halfway around the world going east, or if you go halfway around going west. You will be traveling in opposite directions, see completely different geographical locations, yet the destination will remain the same.

"Well, the universe is shaped exactly like the earth
if you go straight long enough you'll end up where you were." -modest mouse

SO! Does it matter if you (or anything/one) is good or evil? In the broad scheme of things, no, it probably does not. But for you and your personal trip through this dimension, yes it does, but only because you have a preference of what kind of existence you want to experience.

Good or evil. Harmony or Entropy. Heaven or Hell. Its our choice.

This is my last thought, promise. Negative energy tends to suck up all energy in its path (know some people that "drain" you?), much like a black hole. Positive energy does the opposite, which is to give out energy, like a sun. But wait!!! A black hole is created by a collapsed star, so what the fuck does that mean with our little metaphor?!?!?

Keep asking these kind of questions! :smile: Their answers are much more fulfilling and helpful than "What do my friends think of me?" or what have you.


Edited by Ragecage (05/14/11 07:52 PM)


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OfflinexFrockx
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Re: Can nature be evil? [Re: Ragecage]
    #14453161 - 05/14/11 07:37 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Why is having consciousness a prerequisite for being able to be evil for you?

Also, is consciousness natural for you?


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Invisible1983
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Re: Can nature be evil? [Re: xFrockx]
    #14453163 - 05/14/11 07:38 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

xFrockx said:
Can a hurricane be evil?

Can a person be evil?

Is your answer the same for both of these?




Hurricanes can't be evil because they aren't able to make choices.


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OfflinexFrockx
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Re: Can nature be evil? [Re: 1983]
    #14453167 - 05/14/11 07:39 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

And people can?


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Invisible1983
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Re: Can nature be evil? [Re: xFrockx]
    #14453173 - 05/14/11 07:42 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

xFrockx said:
And people can?




yes.


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OfflinexFrockx
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Re: Can nature be evil? [Re: 1983]
    #14453176 - 05/14/11 07:42 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Ok.


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Invisible1983
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Re: Can nature be evil? [Re: xFrockx]
    #14453187 - 05/14/11 07:46 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Ok


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OfflinexFrockx
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Re: Can nature be evil? [Re: 1983]
    #14453206 - 05/14/11 07:51 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Ok


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OfflineRagecage
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Re: Can nature be evil? [Re: xFrockx]
    #14453249 - 05/14/11 08:01 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Consciousness is a requirement to be evil for me, because evil by the english dictionary means to be proufoundly immoral, which you must have consciousness to have morals. Also, if you did not include consciousness as a requirement to be evil, you would have to consider anything something that causes sadness, entropy, or just something you just don't like to be evil.


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OfflinexFrockx
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Re: Can nature be evil? [Re: Ragecage]
    #14453268 - 05/14/11 08:07 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Why can choices be evil?


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InvisibleCognitive_Shift
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Re: Can nature be evil? [Re: xFrockx]
    #14453671 - 05/14/11 09:36 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

xFrockx said:
Can a hurricane be evil?

Can a person be evil?

Is your answer the same for both of these?



Nature is neither good nor evil, it's just nature.  Good and evil are ideas made up by humans applied to people/places/things in response to threatening things (evil) or beneficial things (good)


--------------------
L'enfer est plein de bonnes volontés et désirs


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Offlinenemesis94
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Re: Can nature be evil? [Re: xFrockx]
    #14453722 - 05/14/11 09:43 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

xFrockx said:
Can a hurricane be evil?

Can a person be evil?

Is your answer the same for both of these?



Can anything at all be evil? Or good for that matter?


--------------------
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

"It's just simply it's"



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OfflinexFrockx
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Re: Can nature be evil? [Re: Cognitive_Shift]
    #14454192 - 05/14/11 11:44 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

"Good and evil are ideas made up by humans applied to people/places/things in response to threatening things (evil) or beneficial things (good) "

Is this nature too?


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OfflinexFrockx
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Re: Can nature be evil? [Re: nemesis94]
    #14454195 - 05/14/11 11:45 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

I don't know.


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InvisibleStranger
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Re: Can nature be evil? [Re: xFrockx]
    #14454206 - 05/14/11 11:49 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Good and evil is a human rationalization that nature and animals do not sure.


--------------------
"If the doors of perception were cleansed every thing would appear to man as it is, infinite." Huxley


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OfflinexFrockx
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Re: Can nature be evil? [Re: Stranger]
    #14454220 - 05/14/11 11:54 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

"Good and evil is a human rationalization that nature and animals do not sure."

Are humans natural? Why aren't the ideas of good and evil, in a sense, also natural?


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OfflineZiggy-Shr00mdust
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Re: Can nature be evil? [Re: xFrockx]
    #14455399 - 05/15/11 09:17 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

The question is one of objective morality. Can morality exist without consciousness?

Can one man alone on an island be evil? Suppose that god does exist, can it be good or evil? I don't think so. The concept of evil is pretty subjective.

Am I evil for burning ants with a magnifying glass as a child? Would an infinitely superior alien race who's last chance at survival was to convert our entire galaxy into raw energy, destroying it in the prossess, be evil?

Maybe I'm over thinking things...

peace.


--------------------
He who attains his ideal by that very fact transcends it


To the mind that is still, the whole universe surrenders



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InvisibleSenor_Doobie
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Re: Can nature be evil? [Re: xFrockx]
    #14455407 - 05/15/11 09:20 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Remember that old Buddhist story about the village.  In the village there was a young prince and on the prince's 11th birthday he received the gift of a horse and the villagers all said "How wonderful!" and the Buddhist master said "We shall see."  Later the boy was out riding the horse and was thrown and broke his leg and all of the villagers said "How terrible!" and the Buddhist master said "We'll see."  Later the village becomes involved in a war and all the young villagers go off to fight except for the prince who is still laid up from his accident and the villagers say "How fortunate for him!" and the Buddhist master says "We shall see."

And so on.

Positive, negative, good, evil, justice, salvation, choice.  None of these are real or definable elements of the natural world.  What truly exists are those things that are existential.


--------------------
"America: Fuck yeah!" -- Alexthegreat

“Nothing can now be believed which is seen in a newspaper. Truth itself becomes suspicious by being put into that polluted vehicle. The real extent of this state of misinformation is known only to those who are in situations to confront facts within their knowledge with the lies of the day.”  -- Thomas Jefferson

The greatest sin of mankind is ignorance.

The press takes [Trump] literally, but not seriously; his supporters take him seriously, but not literally. --Salena Zeto (9/23/16)


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InvisibleCarl Sagan
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Re: Can nature be evil? [Re: nemesis94]
    #14455530 - 05/15/11 10:11 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

nemesis94 said:
Quote:

xFrockx said:
Can a hurricane be evil?

Can a person be evil?

Is your answer the same for both of these?



Can anything at all be evil? Or good for that matter?



Short answer is NO.  If you feel the need for control over your environment/people
then you employ these tactics of defining and judging.


--------------------
“Sacred cows make the best hamburger”

Mark Twain



Independant Research Foundation


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Invisibledustinthewind13
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Re: Can nature be evil? [Re: Carl Sagan]
    #14455967 - 05/15/11 12:20 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Cognitive_Shift said:
Quote:

xFrockx said:
Can a hurricane be evil?

Can a person be evil?

Is your answer the same for both of these?



Nature is neither good nor evil, it's just nature.  Good and evil are ideas made up by humans applied to people/places/things in response to threatening things (evil) or beneficial things (good)




I agree. Who someone is defines what is good and what is evil. It's just a label people attach to things, which inherently are neither good or bad. Plus, everyone has their own definition for these two labels.


--------------------
"It is the peculiar quality of a fool to perceive the faults of others and forget his own." - Marcus Tullius Cicero

"A room without books is like a body without a soul."  - Marcus Tullius Cicero

"Do not bite at the bait of pleasure, till you know there is no hook beneath it." -Thomas Jefferson


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Invisiblemillzy
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Re: Can nature be evil? [Re: dustinthewind13]
    #14456774 - 05/15/11 03:04 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

good and evil are entirely products of our subjective experience of an event imo.


--------------------
I'm up to my ears in unwritten words. - J.D. Salinger


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OfflineThePhilosophizer
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Re: Can nature be evil? [Re: xFrockx]
    #14456875 - 05/15/11 03:19 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

xFrockx said:
"Good and evil are ideas made up by humans applied to people/places/things in response to threatening things (evil) or beneficial things (good) "

Is this nature too?



Yes, human nature.


--------------------
:pinkshroom:  :regularshroom:  :mushroomgrow: :greenshroom: :stinkyshroom: :scaryshroom: :mushdance: :dancingshroom: :cubie:  :mushroom2:  :supershroom:      :muahaha:

<<<<<<<<---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------->>>>>>>>

A game without challenges is boring. It is possible to live a happy optimistic life without being in denial about all the shit that goes on all around.
You just gotta get up and dance with the fire instead of moping about it. Be thankful for your problems.
Without them, your life would be a fucking bore.
But don't make it all about the problems. There are magnificent wonders in this world worth living for :wink:


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Invisibledustinthewind13
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Re: Can nature be evil? [Re: ThePhilosophizer]
    #14457164 - 05/15/11 04:02 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

ThePhilosophizer said:
Quote:

xFrockx said:
"Good and evil are ideas made up by humans applied to people/places/things in response to threatening things (evil) or beneficial things (good) "

Is this nature too?



Yes, human nature.




Exactly. We all do it.


--------------------
"It is the peculiar quality of a fool to perceive the faults of others and forget his own." - Marcus Tullius Cicero

"A room without books is like a body without a soul."  - Marcus Tullius Cicero

"Do not bite at the bait of pleasure, till you know there is no hook beneath it." -Thomas Jefferson


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OfflinexFrockx
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Re: Can nature be evil? [Re: ThePhilosophizer]
    #14457213 - 05/15/11 04:08 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Is human nature, nature?


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OfflinexFrockx
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Re: Can nature be evil? [Re: dustinthewind13]
    #14457223 - 05/15/11 04:08 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Some people do, some people don't. Don't generalize like that. You can't speak for everyone.


Edited by xFrockx (05/15/11 04:09 PM)


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Invisibledustinthewind13
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Re: Can nature be evil? [Re: xFrockx]
    #14457361 - 05/15/11 04:33 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

xFrockx said:
Is human nature, nature?




Yes. Human nature is nature too. Where else would it come from?

Quote:

xFrockx said:
Some people do, some people don't. Don't generalize like that. You can't speak for everyone.




I am not generalizing as far as I know. I think subjectivity is unavoidable. Do you think food is bad or good? If you chose neither, you are only fooling yourself. Things can be beneficial(good) and malevolent(bad) or both, depending on the observer. We all label things based on their effect on us. You can't say this doesn't apply to you. You just labeled my post as "bad", since you don't think it applies to everyone. It might not, but it does apply to everyone that's subjective and that's a shit load of people (including myself).


--------------------
"It is the peculiar quality of a fool to perceive the faults of others and forget his own." - Marcus Tullius Cicero

"A room without books is like a body without a soul."  - Marcus Tullius Cicero

"Do not bite at the bait of pleasure, till you know there is no hook beneath it." -Thomas Jefferson


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OfflinexFrockx
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Re: Can nature be evil? [Re: dustinthewind13]
    #14457487 - 05/15/11 04:56 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

"Do you think food is bad or good? If you chose neither, you are only fooling yourself."

Don't tell me how to think. Food is what food is. You're the one fooling yourself.

"You just labeled my post as "bad", since you don't think it applies to everyone."

No actually you labeled my post as saying yours was bad. I said no such thing.

"It might not, but it does apply to everyone that's subjective and that's a shit load of people (including myself)."

Ok.


Edited by xFrockx (05/15/11 04:58 PM)


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Invisibledustinthewind13
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Re: Can nature be evil? [Re: xFrockx]
    #14457833 - 05/15/11 05:59 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

xFrockx said:
"Do you think food is bad or good? If you chose neither, you are only fooling yourself."

Don't tell me how to think. Food is what food is. You're the one fooling yourself.

"You just labeled my post as "bad", since you don't think it applies to everyone."

No actually you labeled my post as saying yours was bad. I said no such thing.

"It might not, but it does apply to everyone that's subjective and that's a shit load of people (including myself)."

Ok.




I already said that things aren't inherently good or bad. We make them "good"/"bad". You didn't like my post. I was guessing you labeled it as bad, since you didn't accept it and decided to discard it. I would guess you would label it as good if you agreed with it.

We might not be using the same definition for good and bad. Lets use a dictionary:

Good: of a favorable character or tendency
Bad: failing to reach an acceptable standard

I just can't accept that these definitions don't apply to the interactions between human nature and the world. They're not the only definitions for the word good, but they help me prove my point.

Saying I don't have a preference to eat food, but I do have a preference to not eat it would be fooling myself. In reality I prefer to eat food, especially if its my favorite food. How would you label the fact that I want food in order to survive? I believe eating food is of a favorable character or tendency. Eating is beneficial to your psyche and body. A good symbol for that would be the word good IMO. On the other hand you don't need a virus and probably don't want it either (virus=bad).

I did fuck up by labeling what you said though. Wasn't trying to tell you how you think. It's what I learned from psychology about the human mind. It taught me that it's symbolic and doesn't equal reality. We have all subjectively used symbols at least once in our lifetime. I have yet to meet someone who is completely objective and wants everything life has to offer equally. I think we all attach symbols such as good, better and the best sooner or latter. I don't think that what I find to be good generalizes to everyone though. I just think everyone does what I do (discriminate between things). It seems pretty obvious to me. I might be delusional though.


--------------------
"It is the peculiar quality of a fool to perceive the faults of others and forget his own." - Marcus Tullius Cicero

"A room without books is like a body without a soul."  - Marcus Tullius Cicero

"Do not bite at the bait of pleasure, till you know there is no hook beneath it." -Thomas Jefferson


Edited by dustinthewind13 (05/15/11 06:04 PM)


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OfflinexFrockx
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Re: Can nature be evil? [Re: dustinthewind13]
    #14457903 - 05/15/11 06:11 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

"You didn't like my post."

I never said that either, sheesh. Can I say anything to you without it being made personal?

"I did fuck up by labeling what you said though. Wasn't trying to tell you how you think. It's what I learned from psychology about the human mind. It taught me that it's symbolic and doesn't equal reality. We have all subjectively used symbols at least once in our lifetime. I have yet to meet someone who is completely objective and wants everything life has to offer equally. I think we all attach symbols such as good, better and the best sooner or latter. I don't think that what I find to be good generalizes to everyone though. I just think everyone does what I do (discriminate between things). It seems pretty obvious to me. I might be delusional though."


Just because you can doesn't mean you should.


Edited by xFrockx (05/15/11 06:14 PM)


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Invisibledustinthewind13
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Re: Can nature be evil? [Re: xFrockx]
    #14458234 - 05/15/11 07:02 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

"You didn't like my post."

I never said that either, sheesh. Can I say anything to you without it being made personal?


Hehe. I know what you mean. Sry. My bad :tongue:. I keep on making the same mistake. I'm pissed off today. I take shit much more personal when I'm pissed. It sounded like you thought it was bad if you use the definition I posted. My post didn't reach an acceptable standard for what we are talking about according to my subjective perspective.

Just because you can doesn't mean you should.

I haven't meet anyone who never has though. Maybe I really shouldn't generalize. It just seems like something that does generalize. I need proof to debunk what I think.


--------------------
"It is the peculiar quality of a fool to perceive the faults of others and forget his own." - Marcus Tullius Cicero

"A room without books is like a body without a soul."  - Marcus Tullius Cicero

"Do not bite at the bait of pleasure, till you know there is no hook beneath it." -Thomas Jefferson


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OfflinexFrockx
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Re: Can nature be evil? [Re: dustinthewind13]
    #14458277 - 05/15/11 07:07 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Questions are much better than proof for debunking thoughts. Just a word of advice.


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Invisibledustinthewind13
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Re: Can nature be evil? [Re: xFrockx]
    #14458498 - 05/15/11 07:36 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

xFrockx said:
Questions are much better than proof for debunking thoughts. Just a word of advice.




How should I question myself? You seem to have gone through this path.

I can ask myself if everyone likes Pink Floyd as much as I do. The answer would be no from my experience. That means its good for me and the people who like it too. The people who also like it don't necessarily like it as much as me. It's either good or bad in varying degrees to someone. I do agree with you that Pink Floyd isn't inherently good or bad though. It is good or bad to individual minds that have listened to it. Someone might have no subjective thoughts on it, but they probably have had and will on something else sooner or later.


--------------------
"It is the peculiar quality of a fool to perceive the faults of others and forget his own." - Marcus Tullius Cicero

"A room without books is like a body without a soul."  - Marcus Tullius Cicero

"Do not bite at the bait of pleasure, till you know there is no hook beneath it." -Thomas Jefferson


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OfflinexFrockx
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Re: Can nature be evil? [Re: dustinthewind13]
    #14458606 - 05/15/11 07:52 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

"How should I question myself? "

That sounds like a start.


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Invisibledustinthewind13
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Re: Can nature be evil? [Re: xFrockx]
    #14458729 - 05/15/11 08:11 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

xFrockx said:
"How should I question myself? "

That sounds like a start.




Let me guess. I'm going to have to realize that free will doesn't exist first, right? Then I will have to apply that to what I said. If free will doesn't exist, that means that what I chose to be good is just an illusion my brain creates and is inevitable. Even though my brain made me feel that eating was of a favorable character or tendency, it was just molecules tricking me. There is no difference between reality and and what I perceive it to be. My perception is only giving me a fake feeling that I prefer Pink Floyd over most bands out there. Reality isn't good or bad, which means the experience didn't happen in REALITY. Even though I could attach symbols such as good or bad to the experience it wouldn't mean anything? It's not what is really there. It's only an experience people I have meet and read about share. Am I on the right track?


--------------------
"It is the peculiar quality of a fool to perceive the faults of others and forget his own." - Marcus Tullius Cicero

"A room without books is like a body without a soul."  - Marcus Tullius Cicero

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Re: Can nature be evil? [Re: dustinthewind13]
    #14458749 - 05/15/11 08:14 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

"I'm going to have to realize that free will doesn't exist first, right? "

No. But do you know if it does or not?


Edited by xFrockx (05/15/11 08:16 PM)


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Re: Can nature be evil? [Re: xFrockx]
    #14458782 - 05/15/11 08:20 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Yes humans are natural... and everything we make is natural.


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Re: Can nature be evil? [Re: Cognitive_Shift]
    #14458888 - 05/15/11 08:33 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Is anything not natural?


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Re: Can nature be evil? [Re: xFrockx]
    #14458931 - 05/15/11 08:40 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

My personal philosophical POV - No... we simply use "man made" to explain technically natural events because humans did them.  People like to think they are somehow special or inherently different from nature, and this is why we use words like artificial, man made ect ect. 

Cultural (public) POV - Yes man made things are not natural because humans made them.


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L'enfer est plein de bonnes volontés et désirs


Edited by Cognitive_Shift (05/15/11 08:48 PM)


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Re: Can nature be evil? [Re: xFrockx]
    #14458974 - 05/15/11 08:46 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

xFrockx said:
"I'm going to have to realize that free will doesn't exist first, right? "

No. But do you know if it does or not? For certain?




No. I don't. I have no idea. If it does, we are separated (in our minds) from the chemicals that created our ability to judge what is good or bad for us. If it doesn't exist, we are not choosing with our selves/spirit/awarness (whatever term u want to use... i have difficulty differentiating between them). It just happens. The experience that does happen, by free will or without it, does differentiate between things and does label it according to the definitions I posted. Our perception is limited and we have no idea what our experience of life is. The definitions for good or bad along with the experience does exist though. Even if its only in our mind. For example, when a baby is born he cries if he is slapped on the behind. If he wouldn't cry, it would be a sign of abnormality. He doesn't want the pain. He feels its bad, if he doesn't think it.

Our experience is though by many to be collective. People who adhere to the belief that the collective unconsciousness exists would agree that good and bad are integral to human nature. You can still overcome good and bad and not be biased. I am just saying that I haven't meet anyone that never differentiates things on some form of a good or bad scale. Or in other words, I haven't meet anyone that has overcome everything he once labeled as good or bad or didn't need to because he was born that way. I believe the experience of good or bad is legit either as an illusion or a model of reality. IMO it is happening on a grand scale in the human race. There wouldn't be as many differences between people otherwise IMO.


--------------------
"It is the peculiar quality of a fool to perceive the faults of others and forget his own." - Marcus Tullius Cicero

"A room without books is like a body without a soul."  - Marcus Tullius Cicero

"Do not bite at the bait of pleasure, till you know there is no hook beneath it." -Thomas Jefferson


Edited by dustinthewind13 (05/15/11 08:50 PM)


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Re: Can nature be evil? [Re: dustinthewind13]
    #14460898 - 05/16/11 07:05 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

"People who adhere to the belief that the collective unconsciousness exists would agree that good and bad are integral to human nature."

If this exists then were is it and how do our brains all connect to it?


Edited by xFrockx (05/16/11 07:07 AM)


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Re: Can nature be evil? [Re: xFrockx]
    #14461312 - 05/16/11 10:09 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

xFrockx said:
"People who adhere to the belief that the collective unconsciousness exists would agree that good and bad are integral to human nature."

If this exists then were is it and how do our brains all connect to it?




I'm not sure. I am guessing it's passed down from generation to generation through DNA. It's not my idea. It only makes sense to me that it exists.

Collective Unconscious - if u feel like reading more about it.


--------------------
"It is the peculiar quality of a fool to perceive the faults of others and forget his own." - Marcus Tullius Cicero

"A room without books is like a body without a soul."  - Marcus Tullius Cicero

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Re: Can nature be evil? [Re: xFrockx]
    #14461356 - 05/16/11 10:24 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

xFrockx said:
Can a hurricane be evil?

Can a person be evil?

Is your answer the same for both of these?




Hurricanes only form to maintain atmospheric balances, like tornadoes and storms.  So I would say no regardless of whether it is conscience or not (and who's to say they don't?).  The destruction natural disasters cause is a direct effect of us building something to be destroyed in the first place, probably after death raping the planet for those same resources. 

People, like all existing things, are only empty vessels.  I would say that certain environments, experiences, situations etc are so negative and powerful that they could aid in turning someone into a more or less "evil" person.  But we also have the ability to overcome such obstacles and let them make us better people. Personally I feel like people are inherently good at (and before) birth, and the fucked up conditions of this planet in general just get to some people. With this question it's all in the set of lenses you're using.


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Re: Can nature be evil? [Re: dustinthewind13]
    #14461358 - 05/16/11 10:24 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Sorry if this sounds rude, but do you know what DNA is? DNA is like the blueprint of a house. Its the coding for the protien synthesis that goes on in an organism. DNA doesn't cause thoughts directly any more than a blueprint determines how a house will be used.

Does there need to be a collective unconsciousness for us to explain thoughts? I mean, if there were a collective unconscious how come we can disagree over the meanings of words? If we were all tapped in together in our minds, wouldn't there be fewer disagreements? Couldn't the similarities in our thoughts be explained merely by the similarity of the place we live?


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Re: Can nature be evil? [Re: xFrockx]
    #14461579 - 05/16/11 11:26 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

I didn't say we were connected telepathically.

As far as DNA goes, it is what creates our minds. It is a blueprint for it. I know that. DNA is IMO only the reason it is passed on from human to human. After it is created we don't need to observe the DNA to observe the collective unconscious. We just need to focus on the similarities our mind has with our ancestors and the people around us. I wasn't saying DNA carries a collective unconscious blueprint. I was saying it carries a blueprint that in effect creates the collective unconscious. IMO the collective unconscious is the result of the interaction between human nature and nature over the time it took us to evolve to what we are right now. It is what never changed, because it didn't need to. I am no anthropologist, but it could be survival based. Some of it might not. I don't know. It just seems obvious to me that the human race shares certain functions the brain creates. It is what connects us as a human race. It could be based on biology. We do have the same thinking tool, do we not? If the tool is basically the same, then there should be similarities. I am not saying it is a separate layer that lies under our subconscious. I am not differentiating between the brain and mind. I have no proof for that. It is just an abstract model that makes sense to me and other people as well.

A good example would be one by Robert Anton Wilson. He said that certain animals (cant remember well) were flown over with cardboard shaped in the form of a predator. The baby birds perceived that shape and became scared. The shape for their predator was ingrained in their brain and they automatically went into fight or flight mode. This might not prove what I am talking about, but it seems to point in the right direction. There are also a bunch of other examples of the collective unconscious that make sense. Saying we are all telepathically connected would be one that makes no sense though :smile:.


--------------------
"It is the peculiar quality of a fool to perceive the faults of others and forget his own." - Marcus Tullius Cicero

"A room without books is like a body without a soul."  - Marcus Tullius Cicero

"Do not bite at the bait of pleasure, till you know there is no hook beneath it." -Thomas Jefferson


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Re: Can nature be evil? [Re: dustinthewind13]
    #14464129 - 05/16/11 07:31 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

"A good example would be one by Robert Anton Wilson. He said that certain animals (cant remember well) were flown over with cardboard shaped in the form of a predator. The baby birds perceived that shape and became scared. The shape for their predator was ingrained in their brain and they automatically went into fight or flight mode. This might not prove what I am talking about, but it seems to point in the right direction. There are also a bunch of other examples of the collective unconscious that make sense. Saying we are all telepathically connected would be one that makes no sense though :smile:."

I wouldn't normally consider that thing the "collective unconscious." Those kind of things are like reflexes. The problem, I think, with calling it "collective" is that there is not really anything collective about it. Its a lot of individuals with similarities. Not everyone has the same DNA, of course, and as a result individually there are differences in how our consciousness functions. Day to day variety can seem slim, but when you look at the whole population there's an unbelievable amount of difference. So much that to call consciousness collective is to mash together something that, in reality, is unbelievably complex and different in every single person. Even identical twins receive the world from two different sets of eyes.


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Re: Can nature be evil? [Re: xFrockx]
    #14465283 - 05/16/11 10:38 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Nature can be evil only to those who believe it to be...  Otherwise it just exists as is... void of words.


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Re: Can nature be evil? [Re: xFrockx]
    #14465694 - 05/17/11 12:12 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

xFrockx said:
Is human nature, nature?




Umm yes and no.

Human nature is what it is: human nature. Yes, it arises from nature and so through a simple syllogism, you'd arrive at a definite 'yes'. And human nature has changed quite a bit over the course of history. As we evolved over time, our conditions of living changed, which in turn led to changes in our priorities (hunting isn't so much of one for most of us these days, is it?), which led to different ways of thinking or prioritizing, in other words a human nature that's different than the human nature that cavemen possessed. And human nature in this modern context is a little (seemingly) paradoxical: we strive by taking resources from the very nature that created us and re-working them into unrecognizable forms.

Now, this is the society's definition of un-natural and actually has a few other names, like artificial or man-made. Artificial is a (seeming) paradox in it of itself: artificial is just a construct created through the way of thinking according to human nature. In other words, artificial is un-natural because it is natural. Paradox? Could be. Unless you see illusions as being natural parts of our world. Here's my ultimate opinion on the matter: everything artificial is just as natural as anything that grows out of the ground. Illusions are also natural. An illusion is not something tangible like a tree, but whoever said that nature only includes material objects? That would rule out consciousness as being natural. But that's illogical, if you take into account our definition of un-natural. We defined un-natural as man-made. And yes, humans give birth to other humans, so in a way consciousness is man-made, but that's not the kind of man-made we defined. We defined it as "taking resources from the very nature that created us and re-working them into unrecognizable forms". If we are to assume that the definition is valid, then consciousness is not artificial, so therefore it is natural.

And consciousness thrives on many different kinds of illusions that this world creates, from lies and deceptions of our society to perceptual errors, such as the the idea that the world is flat or that heaven and the earth meet at the horizon. If you are to accept that illusions are natural as well, there is no paradox. The idea that man-made is un-natural is just an illusion. Human nature is nature. Problem solved. I think :ahahaha: ........

I'm actually very curious on hearing your thoughts on this, xFrocksx (or shall I call you Mr. Socrates for solely asking questions :biggrin:)


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<<<<<<<<---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------->>>>>>>>

A game without challenges is boring. It is possible to live a happy optimistic life without being in denial about all the shit that goes on all around.
You just gotta get up and dance with the fire instead of moping about it. Be thankful for your problems.
Without them, your life would be a fucking bore.
But don't make it all about the problems. There are magnificent wonders in this world worth living for :wink:


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Re: Can nature be evil? [Re: xFrockx]
    #14467258 - 05/17/11 10:31 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

I agree with some former poster that 'nature' always acts in a way of bringing something into balance, or act against disbalance.
I think, humans have the most potential of all things and creatures on this planet to act against that 'principle'.


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Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
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Re: Can nature be evil? [Re: BlueCoyote]
    #14467517 - 05/17/11 11:42 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

What makes things out of balance then?


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Re: Can nature be evil? [Re: xFrockx]
    #14467535 - 05/17/11 11:47 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Self overestimation (/limited insight) ? Hehe, IDK :shrug:

I mean, nature stands for growth and progress, but in an 'universal' way, for all kind of being. If this universe is meant for overwhelming earthquakes, so it might be ha, but as I can see, we developed far ahead from those...

The EarthQuakeRider

edit: No, now I know: Death anxiety ! Hubris ! :lol: Damned, Ice, where are you :laugh:


--------------------
Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'


Edited by BlueCoyote (05/17/11 12:49 PM)


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Re: Can nature be evil? [Re: xFrockx]
    #14468360 - 05/17/11 03:08 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

xFrockx said:
What makes things out of balance then?



Hurricanes, tornadoes, floods, average ocean temp changes, average surafce temp changes, average ocean salinity ect ect.  Things that according to probability shouldn't happen, but do.


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Re: Can nature be evil? [Re: BlueCoyote]
    #14469371 - 05/17/11 06:46 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

xFrockx said:
"A good example would be one by Robert Anton Wilson. He said that certain animals (cant remember well) were flown over with cardboard shaped in the form of a predator. The baby birds perceived that shape and became scared. The shape for their predator was ingrained in their brain and they automatically went into fight or flight mode. This might not prove what I am talking about, but it seems to point in the right direction. There are also a bunch of other examples of the collective unconscious that make sense. Saying we are all telepathically connected would be one that makes no sense though :smile:."

I wouldn't normally consider that thing the "collective unconscious." Those kind of things are like reflexes. The problem, I think, with calling it "collective" is that there is not really anything collective about it. Its a lot of individuals with similarities. Not everyone has the same DNA, of course, and as a result individually there are differences in how our consciousness functions. Day to day variety can seem slim, but when you look at the whole population there's an unbelievable amount of difference. So much that to call consciousness collective is to mash together something that, in reality, is unbelievably complex and different in every single person. Even identical twins receive the world from two different sets of eyes.





Your DNA creates your brain. Your brain has built in functions that work unconsciously. When you're an infant you already have primitive reflexes. Reflexes are produced by the brain and are unconscious (until you reflect on them). These traits were collected from the DNA your mother and father shared. It was passed down from them. And they got theirs from their parents. That's why I would call it the collective unconscious. DNA is the blueprint for certain unconscious drives that influence our behavior. The primitive reflexes are eventually inhibited as you continue developing your brain. After the inhibition we go through a few stages of brain development that psychologists agree are the same for every genetically "normal" human. The difference is that our brain develops at different speeds and some people don't reach every stage. Eventually we are capable of feeling love, which is also a feeling many people share. It might just be chemical reactions we share, but it has been happening for thousands of years in unrelated people. The similarity between people is how the brain works (not in every aspect of course). The difference is in what it is working with. All IMO though :grin:.


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"A room without books is like a body without a soul."  - Marcus Tullius Cicero

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Re: Can nature be evil? [Re: dustinthewind13]
    #14469467 - 05/17/11 07:10 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

dustinthewind13 said:
Your DNA creates your brain. Your brain has built in functions that work unconsciously. When you're an infant you already have primitive reflexes. Reflexes are produced by the brain and are unconscious (until you reflect on them). These traits were collected from the DNA your mother and father shared. It was passed down from them. And they got theirs from their parents. That's why I would call it the collective unconscious.



lol your so full of shit.  Don't try to call instincts "the collective unconscious."  They are simply instincts, and there is nothing super natural or mysterious about them.


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Re: Can nature be evil? [Re: Cognitive_Shift]
    #14469570 - 05/17/11 07:29 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Cognitive_Shift said:
Quote:

dustinthewind13 said:
Your DNA creates your brain. Your brain has built in functions that work unconsciously. When you're an infant you already have primitive reflexes. Reflexes are produced by the brain and are unconscious (until you reflect on them). These traits were collected from the DNA your mother and father shared. It was passed down from them. And they got theirs from their parents. That's why I would call it the collective unconscious.



lol your so full of shit.  Don't try to call instincts "the collective unconscious."  They are simply instincts, and there is nothing super natural or mysterious about them.




Are they not passed down through DNA?

"Instinct or innate behavior is the inherent inclination of a living organism toward a particular behavior."

"A reflex action, also known as a reflex, is an involuntary and nearly instantaneous movement in response to a stimulus"

I never said anything about them being supernatural or mysterious. I just said they are unconscious and we all share their function. I agree that terming it the "collective unconscious" would be wrong, because it is also applied to the definition Jung proposed. Both instincts and reflexes are unconscious. It even says instincts are inherent in the definition. The DNA was collected from your parents DNA, which was collected from their parents DNA. Maybe "inherent unconscious" would be better.


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Re: Can nature be evil? [Re: dustinthewind13]
    #14469783 - 05/17/11 08:13 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

somebodys been watching the history channel?


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Re: Can nature be evil? [Re: zoomfan]
    #14469855 - 05/17/11 08:29 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

zoomfan said:
somebodys been watching the history channel?




:lol: You got to learn from somewhere right? This was mostly google :smile:.

And just felt like I would post this. INSTINCTS

Interesting read that sort of reflects what we are talking about.

I love the last part.

Quote:

In the book An Instinct for Dragons[7] anthropologist David E. Jones suggests a hypothesis that humans, just like monkeys, have inherited instinctive reactions to snakes, large cats and birds of prey. Folklore dragons have features that are combinations of these three, which would explain why dragons with similar features occur in stories from independent cultures on all continents. Other authors have suggested that especially under the influence of drugs or in dreams, this instinct may give raise to fantasies about dragons, snakes, spiders, which makes these symbols popular in drug culture. The traditional mainstream explanation to the folklore dragons does however not rely on human instinct, but on the assumption that fossil remains of dinosaurs gave raise to similar speculations all over the world.




--------------------
"It is the peculiar quality of a fool to perceive the faults of others and forget his own." - Marcus Tullius Cicero

"A room without books is like a body without a soul."  - Marcus Tullius Cicero

"Do not bite at the bait of pleasure, till you know there is no hook beneath it." -Thomas Jefferson


Edited by dustinthewind13 (05/17/11 08:30 PM)


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Re: Can nature be evil? [Re: BlueCoyote]
    #14470184 - 05/17/11 09:32 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

So are hurricanes unnatural? What about other destructive forces? Black holes? Floods? Your mom?


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Re: Can nature be evil? [Re: dustinthewind13]
    #14470188 - 05/17/11 09:33 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

"I just said they are unconscious and we all share their function."

Not one single thing in the human consciousness is shared by all. Not one single thing.


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Re: Can nature be evil? [Re: xFrockx] * 1
    #14470819 - 05/17/11 11:13 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

xFrockx said:
"I just said they are unconscious and we all share their function."

Not one single thing in the human consciousness is shared by all. Not one single thing.




The brain is now being mapped with neuroscience. We share locations for specific functions. Plus, the structures of these functions are shaped similarly. Since the brain creates consciousness, I would say the locations of these functions is one thing shared by humans. Each function happening in our brains that we are not aware of affects our consciousness. We also share the same neurotransmitters.:syringe: Dopamine and serotonin both produce :feelsgoodman:.


--------------------
"It is the peculiar quality of a fool to perceive the faults of others and forget his own." - Marcus Tullius Cicero

"A room without books is like a body without a soul."  - Marcus Tullius Cicero

"Do not bite at the bait of pleasure, till you know there is no hook beneath it." -Thomas Jefferson


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Re: Can nature be evil? [Re: dustinthewind13]
    #14471934 - 05/18/11 06:50 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

But the real world action of these mechanisms, in people, happens completely differently in each individual. The similarities are only visible when we step back and generalize.


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Re: Can nature be evil? [Re: xFrockx]
    #14472088 - 05/18/11 08:08 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

What are your premises to the conclusion that, "Not one single thing in the human consciousness is shared by all"?


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Re: Can nature be evil? [Re: Cognitive_Shift]
    #14472456 - 05/18/11 10:18 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Cognitive_Shift said:
Quote:

xFrockx said:
What makes things out of balance then?



Hurricanes, tornadoes, floods, average ocean temp changes, average surafce temp changes, average ocean salinity ect ect.  Things that according to probability shouldn't happen, but do.



Of course not.
Hurricanes and Tornadoes are things which bring atmospheric pressures into balance.
Earthquakes bring the tension of several tectonic plates back to balance.
The rest the same...
According to probability, they are more than likely to happen.
:wtf:


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Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'


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OfflinexFrockx
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Re: Can nature be evil? [Re: Mufungo]
    #14472770 - 05/18/11 11:27 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

1. Every single person has a brain that is different from every other person.
2. Every person receives sensory input through their own senses, to the information received by each individual is different.
3. There is no evidence of a non-physical or spiritual substance that exists that is identical in every single person.

I can probably think of more, but basically we've all got our own heads.


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Re: Can nature be evil? [Re: xFrockx] * 1
    #14472884 - 05/18/11 11:47 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

xFrockx said:
1. Every single person has a brain that is different from every other person.
2. Every person receives sensory input through their own senses, to the information received by each individual is different.
3. There is no evidence of a non-physical or spiritual substance that exists that is identical in every single person.

I can probably think of more, but basically we've all got our own heads.




1. Every single person does have a brain though.
2. The steps that are taken to process the information are the same, unless something went wrong with your development or you received brain damage. An example would be memory. Memory is created by the same function in every individual. People who have damage to this function have trouble or cannot store memory.
3. There is physical evidence of a mixed substance that creates consciousness. It is called a neuron and we all share them. We also share them with other animals.


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"It is the peculiar quality of a fool to perceive the faults of others and forget his own." - Marcus Tullius Cicero

"A room without books is like a body without a soul."  - Marcus Tullius Cicero

"Do not bite at the bait of pleasure, till you know there is no hook beneath it." -Thomas Jefferson


Edited by dustinthewind13 (05/18/11 12:07 PM)


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Re: Can nature be evil? [Re: BlueCoyote]
    #14474640 - 05/18/11 06:14 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

BlueCoyote said:
According to probability, they are more than likely to happen.



Wrong.  They are highly unlikely to happen versus one not happening at all for every second that passes.  However probability is not determined that is why it's probability... and is why tornadoes, hurricanes ect do happen because on a long enough time frame unlikely things do happen.

I guess whether they provide balence depends on what point of view you have.  Over a short period of time or over a long period of time.


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Re: Can nature be evil? [Re: Cognitive_Shift]
    #14477527 - 05/19/11 09:11 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

They have no other possibility than to happen, thats why they happen. Probability = 1


--------------------
Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'


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