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Blue Mantis Registered: 05/28/04 Posts: 27,202 Loc: Iceland |
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Anyone can stall a debate by constantly demanding the other party provide more sources and then saying that you don't believe in those sources.
I think the humane society is a legitimate, valid source. If you disagree, that is your prerogative. Sending the other party on endless fact finding missions is not a debate, and it is YOU who is coping out, in my opinion. I could just as reasonably ask you to provide sources saying that factory farms ARE humane. And if you did, they would likely come from within the meat industry or someone who supports the meat industry, thus being "biased". It is a game that doesn't end. The truth is that arguing that keeping animals in confinement and then slaughtering them is inhumane is like arguing that the sky is blue. If you can't see it for yourself, no one can convince you. Edited by Moonshoe (05/13/11 01:37 PM)
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Stranger Danger Registered: 04/26/11 Posts: 449 Loc: Everywhere Last seen: 3 years, 3 months |
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Quote: It was a test to see who would point it out.
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Wandering Mindfuck Registered: 08/24/09 Posts: 6,024 Loc: Everywhere and Nowhere Last seen: 1 year, 7 months |
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Quote: QFT. It's called the "Moving Goalpost fallacy." Quote: Yeah. Animal Rights organizations are likely to be the only ones even attempting to expose inhumane slaughterhouse conditions. No one else gives a shit. It's as simple as that. The only other sources are going to be meat industry sources saying "everything is fine, we follow all regulations, move along." If you're not willing to accept the Humane Society as a reliable source for investigating animal cruelty, you most certainly are moving the goalposts.
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Shroomery's #1 Spellir Registered: 02/04/08 Posts: 40,372 Loc: SF Bay Area |
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Quote:Don't act stupid, you know what kind of source I'm asking for. Quote:I think it is a valid source for certain information, but not for information regarding this particular topic because it is obviously strongly biased. Quote:I'm just asking you to provide an unbiased source..why this is such a hassle for you is beyond me. If your case is strong, then you should easily be able to find at least one unbiased source. How is it me who is copping out? ![]() Quote:You're looking at it backwards..you were the one who made the claim that they are inhumane, the burden of proof is on you. I never made the claim that they are humane. Quote:It is not necessarily inhumane..not all butchered animals lived a life of suffering, and not all of them are slaughtered inhumanely..many slaughterhouses have certain standards that they must honor by law regarding the manner in which they dispatch their animals. Quote:I'm not moving the goalpost here, I just want an unbiased source on the matter; this is not a heavy request. I believe the credibility of his sources is suspect, and this is a legitimate reason to request for an unbiased source. Quote:So you don't think they may exaggerate some things? Quote:No, there are plenty of other sources, like Time magazine for example, or any major news organization. Quote:I think they have a certain agenda which causes them to exaggerate their facts..this is not an unreasonable suspicion. --------------------
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Registered: 05/09/11 Posts: 59 Last seen: 12 years, 8 months |
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"they are obviously strongly biased."
Well, now the burden of proof is on you. Find me an unbiased article that proves that the humane society is strongly biased.
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Registered: 05/09/11 Posts: 59 Last seen: 12 years, 8 months |
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Anyways, here is another source about inhumane factory farming.
"Millions of broiler chickens are housed in industrial barns containing up to 25,000 birds. Birds are bred to have such heavy breasts that many are unable to stand, and die of thirst because they are unable to reach water l Thousands of dairy cows are confined in concrete encased feedlots. To artificially boost milk production, cows are often injected with hormones that cause crippling loss of bone mass and produce painful infections. Animals are milked by mechanical devices as many as three times each day. The farmer/animal connection ceases to exist in these massive industrial dairy factories; which force them to spend their lives in tight metal pens, often standing painfully on slated concrete floors, breathing almost poisonous levels of ammonia and hydrogen sulfide from the manure stored under their pens. Hogs are sentient, social creatures that can be debilitated by stress when deprived of outlets for their nature behavior. Antibiotics and other artificial inputs are given, in part, to overcome the physical symptoms of this stress. l Egg laying hens are confined by the millions in giant industrial barns, living in tight metal cages, called "battery cages" stacked one atop another. Hens are forced to artificially molt (lose their feathers) through systematic starvation." http://www.columbia.org/pdf_file It took me two seconds to find it, and you could have found it yourself if you weren't too busy using lazy "move the goalpost" debate tactics. But of course now you can just say "that one is biased as well" and you can do that ad nauseum, which is exactly why it is a bullshit debate strategy.
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Blue Mantis Registered: 05/28/04 Posts: 27,202 Loc: Iceland |
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"But of course now you can just say "that one is biased as well" and you can do that ad nauseum, which is exactly why it is a bullshit debate strategy."
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Shroomery's #1 Spellir Registered: 02/04/08 Posts: 40,372 Loc: SF Bay Area |
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Quote:I was not moving the goalpost, I was simply asking for an unbiased source. ![]() The Sierra Club is America's oldest, largest, and most influential grassroots environmental organization. Yet another biased source, golly gee. ![]() It's not up to me to back up somebody else's claims with evidence, the burden of proof is on the claimant. Quote:Wow, I can't believe so many people here don't understand that his sources were heavily biased...
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Registered: 05/09/11 Posts: 59 Last seen: 12 years, 8 months |
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"Wow, I can't believe so many people here don't understand that his sources were heavily biased."
You do realize that your own judgment on what is and is not biased is itself simply your own personal bias don't you? There is no such thing as an unbiased person or an unbiased source. Your judgment that environmental organizations are "biased" just reveals your own anti-environmental bias. It is circular, and you are simply falling back on this whole "bias" crutch because you have run out of steam for real debate.
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Blue Mantis Registered: 05/28/04 Posts: 27,202 Loc: Iceland |
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Exactly! you keep saying that the burden of proof is on me to prove that factory farm slaughterhouses are inhumane, but your claim that my sources and Jordan Black's sources are invalid is itself a claim, and that puts the burden of proof back on you. You can't prove that the facts presented to you are false any more than we can prove they are true.
All you are doing is derailing the thread. What are you waiting for, a study of factory farms done by secretaries, janitors and nuns? The only people who DO these studies are people who have an interest in them! (AKA a "bias). No one does a study they have no interest in , therefore all studies are biased! Edited by Moonshoe (05/13/11 02:22 PM)
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Shroomery's #1 Spellir Registered: 02/04/08 Posts: 40,372 Loc: SF Bay Area |
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Quote:I made clear what it is I am requesting: Quote: Quote:Not true, I just want a source that isn't biased in his favor.
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Registered: 05/09/11 Posts: 59 Last seen: 12 years, 8 months |
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For God's sake, the internet is crawling with PHOTOS and VIDEOS of inhumane factory farm practices.
What you are doing is exactly like holocaust deniers. All the facts are right in front of your face but you deny them on the basis that they all come from "pro-jews" or "anti-nazis". An organization can have a bias but a photo or a video can not. In the amount of time you have wasted whining about "burden of proof" and "bias" you could have answered this question for yourself a hundred times over. Pathetic! Edited by Jordan Black (05/13/11 02:27 PM)
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Idealist Thinker Musician Lover Registered: 09/13/10 Posts: 409 |
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Quote: "Gail Eisnitz, chief investigator for the Humane Farming Association (HFA), interviewed slaughterhouse workers in the U.S. who say that, because of the speed with which they are required to work, animals are routinely skinned while apparently alive, and still blinking, kicking, and shrieking. Eisnitz argues that this is not only cruel to the animals, but also dangerous for the human workers, as cows weighing several thousands of pounds thrashing around in pain are likely to kick out and debilitate anyone working near them.[12] According to the HFA, Eiznitz interviewed slaughterhouse workers representing over two million hours of experience, who, without exception, told her that they have beaten, strangled, boiled, and dismembered animals alive, or have failed to report those who do. The HFA alleges that workers are required to kill up to 1,100 hogs an hour, and end up taking their frustration out on the animals.[13] Eisnitz interviewed one worker, who had worked in ten slaughterhouses, about pig production. He told her: “ Hogs get stressed out pretty easy. If you prod them too much, they have heart attacks. If you get a hog in the chute that's had the shit prodded out of him and has a heart attack or refuses to move, you take a meat hook and hook it into his bunghole. You try to do this by clipping the hipbone. Then you drag him backwards. You're dragging these hogs alive, and a lot of times the meat hook rips out of the bunghole. I've seen hams — thighs — completely ripped open. I've also seen intestines come out. If the hog collapses near the front of the chute, you shove the meat hook into his cheek and drag him forward.[14] "
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Shroomery's #1 Spellir Registered: 02/04/08 Posts: 40,372 Loc: SF Bay Area |
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Quote:So are you asking me to provide evidence for my claim that your guys' sources are invalid and biased in your favor? Really? Quote:That is precisely why I would like to see information from a credible source that is not biased against slaughterhouses. Quote:I honestly don't know what the fuss is about, or why you're accusing me of derailing the thread..if you don't want to provide a source that isn't biased in your favor, then that's fine, there's no need to make these accusations. ![]() Quote:If you happened to read the thread, you would know that this point has already been covered..hardly any of those videos have a date on them, nor do they indicate what country they are in. I know that, in the past, the treatment of animals in slaughterhouses was extremely inhumane, but nowadays, laws that have been put into place drastically reduced the prevalence and degree of inhumane practices in slaughterhouses. --------------------
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Shroomery's #1 Spellir Registered: 02/04/08 Posts: 40,372 Loc: SF Bay Area |
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Quote:I've actually heard that the manner in which pigs are slaughtered is extremely inhumane..I don't agree with those practices one bit. However, that pigs are slaughtered this way is in no way an indication that all other slaughtered animals are also slaughtered this way. I'd be interested in seeing the source for that information BTW.
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455 member(s) Registered: 09/07/10 Posts: 14,063 Loc: fuckyeah! Last seen: 9 years, 8 months |
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Quote: Quote: says you. Quote: Quote: who says plants can't feel pain? they respond to music, human voice and human touch. i know worms don't feel pain, so you can eat worms guilt free. Quote: Quote: and i'm talking about mushrooms on a mushrooms forum. duh! Quote: Quote: see how i used a question mark? that means it's question, not a statement. Quote: Quote: no, i've made points that you don't view as valid, as you have made points that i don't view as valid. not eating meat doesn't make you a realest, it make you a vegetarian. --------------------
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Idealist Thinker Musician Lover Registered: 09/13/10 Posts: 409 |
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Quote: Quote: - Eisnitz, Gail A. Slaughterhouse. Prometheus Books, 1997, cited in Torres, Bob. Making a Killing. AK Press, 2007, p. 46. ^ Eisnitz, p. 82, cites in Torres, Bob. Making a Killing. AK Press, 2007, p. 47. I don't have the time to check out those books but if you want to there they are Have you read fast food nation? anything by michael pollen? Here's some info on the cow lifestyle, from an interview with Michael Pollen who's a journalist studying this stuff. "By the time a modern American beef cow is six months old, it has seen its last blade of grass for the rest of its life. As soon as they wean, they spend the first six months out on the pasture with their moms, nursing, nibbling grass. The mom is converting the grass's protein that's turning into milk for the animal, doing the way they've done it for millions of years. We take them off grass. We put them in pens, called backgrounding pens, and we teach them how to eat something that they are not evolved to eat, which is grain, and mostly corn. Why do we do this? Well, it's a very good question, because it makes absolutely no sense from an ecological standpoint. From a financial standpoint, it does. It makes them grow much more quickly. It makes them get fat, and we like our meat really fat and marbled. And it allows us to speed up the lifespan. In capitalism, time is money. We're taking cows that we used to let grow to be four or five years old before we eat them [and] we've got it down to 14 months, and we're heading toward 11 months. What allows us to do this is getting them [on] corn, getting them off this whole evolutionary relationship they've had with grass. The problem with this system, or one of the problems with this system, is that cows are not evolved to digest corn. It creates all sorts of problems for them. The rumen is designed for grass. And corn is just too rich, too starchy. So as soon as you introduce corn, the animal is liable to get sick. It creates a whole [host] of changes to the animal. So you have to essentially teach them how to eat corn. You teach their bodies to adjust. And this is done in something called the backgrounding pen at the ranch, which is kind of the prep school for the feedlot. Here's where you teach them how to eat corn. You start giving them antibiotics, because as soon as you give them corn, you've disturbed their digestion, and they're apt to get sick, so you then have to give them drugs. That's how you get in this whole cycle of drugs and meat. By feeding them what they're not equipped to eat well, we then go down this path of technological fixes, and the first is the antibiotics. Once they start eating the [corn], they're more vulnerable. They're stressed, so they're more vulnerable to all the different diseases cows get. But specifically they get bloat, which is just a horrible thing to happen. They stop ruminating. You have the image of a cow on grass of the cow ruminating, which is chewing its cud and burping a lot. In fact, a lot of greenhouse gases come out of the stock as methane emerges from their mouth as they eructate -- it's a technical term. And they bring down saliva in this process, and it keeps their stomach very base rather than acid. So you put in the corn, and this layer of slime forms over the rumen. You've got to picture the rumen. It's a 45-gallon fermentation tank. It's essentially fermenting the grass. Suddenly your slime forms and the gas can't escape, and the rumen just expands like a balloon. It's pressing against the lungs and the heart, and if nothing is done, the animal suffocates. So what is done is, if you catch it in time, you stick a hose down the esophagus and you release the gas and maybe give the animal some hay or grass, and it's a lot healthier. But it's one of the things that happens to cows on corn. ... Not all cows get bloat. They're prone to bloat. It's a serious problem on feedlots. They also get acidosis, which is an acidifying of the rumen. ... And when the animals get acid stomach, it's a really bad case of heartburn, and they go off their feed. Eventually, if you give them too much corn too quickly, it ulcerates the rumen; bacteria escape from the rumen into the blood stream, and end up in the liver, creating liver abscesses. What do we do about that? Another antibiotic. ... Most cows on feedlots eating this rich diet of corn are prone to having their livers damaged. So to prevent that, or limit the incidence of liver disease, we have to give them another antibiotic. I've talked to many people who've said that if you kept animals on this diet indefinitely, they couldn't survive. They're eating a diet on feedlots at 80 percent to 90 percent corn that would sooner or later, as one vet told me, blow out their liver. They could not continue that. And in fact, dairy cows, which we want to live up to 8-10 years, we don't feed them like this, because we know that it hurts their health. So yes, economically, we tolerate sick cows. ... But the issue is, you have an economic logic, and you have an evolutionary and natural logic. And when you get to the cow, you see them come into conflict. It may well make sense economically to feed cows what we feed them, but ecologically, it's a disaster. It's a disaster for them because they're getting sick. Instead, we take the Midwest and we pave it essentially [with] corn and soybeans, and the environmental consequences of growing all that corn -- and most of the corn grown in this country goes to feed livestock -- is environmental degradation of the Midwest and the Gulf. There's a dead zone in the Gulf of Mexico a thousand miles wide that is the result of nitrogen runoff coming down the Mississippi and killing all the life in this zone in the Gulf. And that's coming directly from corn. So you see the cow is connected to that dead zone in the Gulf, and the cow is connected to our health, too. All these things are connected. There is an ecological logic that is very different than the economic logic. And in that ecological logic, you can't separate the health of the cow, the health of the environment, and the health of the eater. then the cow gets on a truck and goes to the feedlots. When it gets to the feedlot, its life changes in a substantial way. It will never see any grass ever again. ... A feedlot is a city of cows. I saw several of them in western Kansas, and it was a stunning experience. You're driving down these ramrod straight roads through Kansas, and it's just empty, empty prairie. And suddenly there was this giant subdivision, only it's a city for animals. It's cattle pens, black earth, as far as you can see. Of course it's not really earth, you learn as you get a little closer; it's manure, reaching to the horizon. they really are medieval cities in many respects, I realized, because they are cities in the days before modern sanitation. They're from the time when cities really were stinky. When they were teeming and filthy and pestilential and liable to be ridden with plague, because you had people coming from many, many different places, bringing many, many different microbes into a concentrated area where they could spread them around. The only reason this doesn't happen in the city of animals, the modern city of animals, is of course the modern antibiotics. That is the only thing that keeps the modern feedlots from being different than the 14th-century city where everybody was dying of plague. We can, to some extent, control the disease with drugs. Absent the drugs, these places would be as plague-ridden and pestilential as a 14th-century city. ... Every hour I was on this feedlot, another tanker truck came in filled with liquefied fat. Another one with liquefied protein. Every hour there was another truck with 50,000 pounds of corn. You see all the feedstuff coming into the city, and you see the waste going out. The wastes, by and large, are manure, trucks coming in from farms carrying it away. But a lot of this was pooled in these lagoons, which were just full of this." Edited by helix (05/13/11 03:07 PM)
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Sexologist Registered: 05/13/11 Posts: 46 |
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Oh my god that is all soo horrible!
I dont know how anyone can eat meat!! i mean haven't you ever seen a cute little baby pig or lamb or sheep or cow?! How could you do it! It is so sad and horrible, I just can't believe people don't think about how it would feel if some evil animal ate us even thought they didn't have to, just because they liked the taste! Just eat vegetables and stuff people!
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Shroomery's #1 Spellir Registered: 02/04/08 Posts: 40,372 Loc: SF Bay Area |
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Quote:Nope, neither. Quote:In what year did this interview take place? Pretty harrowing stuff BTW.
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Wandering Mindfuck Registered: 08/24/09 Posts: 6,024 Loc: Everywhere and Nowhere Last seen: 1 year, 7 months |
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Quote: I have the capability to feel empathy, unlike wolves. ![]() Quote: They don't have a nervous system, and the fact that they respond to human interaction doesn't have anything to do with whether or not they feel pain. They respond to the increased levels of CO2 that we breathe out. ![]() Quote: Worms actually have brains and relatively complex physiology. There are some mollusks that have no nervous systems and I don't really have any qualms about eating them. Quote: Yeah, and that's not forcing your opinion on anyone else. What is your point? What does that have anything to do with the ethics of eating meat? ![]() Quote: The whole point is that you can be both.
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