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Invisiblehelix
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Re: The problem with eating meat [Re: sandi]
    #14445022 - 05/13/11 11:24 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

sandi said:Protests? Boycott meat? Yeah, right. That's going to work (not). Boycotts only work if you can actually damage sales, and there will never be enough people that can boycott it all at once for it to damage the industry.




Find people in your community who care about this, find an organic farm, meet with the farmers and set up a way to get sustainable, organic, local meat direct. Then you take your support away from the shitty meat in grocery stores thereby reducing their profit. If enough people do this, they eventually start losing their profit. If everyone does this they go out of business. plop. I think looking at the end-result is a cop-out considering how overpopulated we are. Of course those numbers are gonna tell you trying is pointless. The point is to do it for yourself, show others that it works. You can't make other people have true freedom until you have it yourself

Edited by helix (05/13/11 11:26 AM)

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InvisibleMoonshoe
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Re: The problem with eating meat [Re: helix]
    #14445032 - 05/13/11 11:26 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

:thumbup:

Absolutely. Developing sustainable , locally based permacultures is the key to ecological food production.

But in the meantime, or in the absence of those options, vegetarianism remains the best option for most.


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Everything I post is fiction.

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OfflineUnison
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Re: The problem with eating meat [Re: helix]
    #14445038 - 05/13/11 11:27 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

aronf13 said:
What's a far more important solution and still holds up when you apply it to everyone on the planet, i think is using permaculture techniques, growing our own food, and eating as diverse a diet as possible. Meat CAN be sustainable, so we have to stop buying meat from just any old source, and start supporting farms and livestock raisers who are striving to use those sustainable organic techniques, and are esteemed enough to not sell-out once they get enough financial support to catch the attention of big meat companies who will want to buy them out.



Why wont you people understand? Anything you do to sustain the species, WILL CAUSE THE SAME PROBLEM AGAIN in the future, once the population catches up (and it will).

There are two solutions. Slow reproduction, or artificially produce nutrients. Them's the dice.

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Invisiblehelix
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Re: The problem with eating meat [Re: Unison]
    #14445132 - 05/13/11 11:46 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Unison said:
Quote:

aronf13 said:
What's a far more important solution and still holds up when you apply it to everyone on the planet, i think is using permaculture techniques, growing our own food, and eating as diverse a diet as possible. Meat CAN be sustainable, so we have to stop buying meat from just any old source, and start supporting farms and livestock raisers who are striving to use those sustainable organic techniques, and are esteemed enough to not sell-out once they get enough financial support to catch the attention of big meat companies who will want to buy them out.



Why wont you people understand? Anything you do to sustain the species, WILL CAUSE THE SAME PROBLEM AGAIN in the future, once the population catches up (and it will).

There are two solutions. Slow reproduction, or artificially produce nutrients. Them's the dice.




I think we need population control as WELL as using sustainable methods of production. we're already producing 40% over what's sustainable and population control is gonna take a while to have effect, unless it includes systematically and rapidly getting RID of people :/

Plus, it's straying from the topic, but there are other problems besides ecological destruction that come out of using these mass-produced, industrialized, commodified structures to get our food

Edited by helix (05/13/11 11:47 AM)

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InvisiblePoid
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Re: The problem with eating meat [Re: Moonshoe]
    #14445214 - 05/13/11 12:12 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Moonshoe said:
And anyone who hunts or fishes their own meat, in my opinnion, is exempt from any ecological blame...


Even those who hunt/fish without a hunting/fishing license?


Quote:

Moonshoe said:
...and it is ethically valid in that you can ensure that the animal is slaughtered humanely and not mistreated grotesquely as with factory farmed meat.


What evidence do you have that shows that animals are slaughtered inhumanely in factories?


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Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

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InvisibleMoonshoe
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Re: The problem with eating meat [Re: Poid]
    #14445241 - 05/13/11 12:19 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

"What evidence do you have that shows that animals are slaughtered inhumanely in factories? "

Your joking right?

http://www.meat.org/


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Everything I post is fiction.

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InvisiblePoid
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Re: The problem with eating meat [Re: Moonshoe]
    #14445267 - 05/13/11 12:24 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

:andyistic:


Yeah, I don't want to be given a link to some anti-meat propaganda website..give me a link to an unbiased source, and quote the relevant section(s).


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

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InvisiblePoid
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Re: The problem with eating meat [Re: Poid]
    #14445280 - 05/13/11 12:27 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

While you're at it, I'd appreciate it if you took the time to formulate an answer to my other question:

Quote:

Poid said:
Quote:

Moonshoe said:
And anyone who hunts or fishes their own meat, in my opinnion, is exempt from any ecological blame...


Even those who hunt/fish without a hunting/fishing license?




--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

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InvisibleMoonshoe
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Re: The problem with eating meat [Re: Poid]
    #14445294 - 05/13/11 12:32 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Well, that video has actual footage of animals being abused in factories. So if you can't believe that, I don't see what some article is going to prove to you. Plus its not my job to do your research for you. You can use google as well as I can my friend.

As for the hunting/fishing licence thing, As far as Im concerned if you are hunting or fishing your own food, locally and humanely, for the purposes of survival, I don't see any difference if you have a licence or not.


--------------------


Everything I post is fiction.

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InvisiblePoid
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Re: The problem with eating meat [Re: Moonshoe]
    #14445328 - 05/13/11 12:38 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Moonshoe said:
Well, that video has actual footage of animals being abused in factories.


How old is the footage? What country was it filmed in? Were the slaughterers employing legal practices?


Quote:

Moonshoe said:
So if you can't believe that, I don't see what some article is going to prove to you.


An article will give me a date, and other relevant information.


Quote:

Moonshoe said:
Plus its not my job to do your research for you.


This is a debate forum..the burden of proof is on you, it's expected that you support your claim with evidence.


Quote:

Moonshoe said:
As for the hunting/fishing licence thing, As far as Im concerned if you are hunting or fishing your own food, locally and humanely, for the purposes of survival, I don't see any difference if you have a licence or not.


Really? Do you not understand the purpose of hunting/fishing licences? Hunting/fishing laws are there to control the game/fish population..if a bunch of people went hunting and fishing without licenses, they would drastically harm the ecosystem.


Shows how environmentally aware you are. :lol:


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

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InvisibleMoonshoe
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Re: The problem with eating meat [Re: Poid]
    #14445370 - 05/13/11 12:49 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

"This is a debate forum..the burden of proof is on you, it's expected that you support your claim with evidence."

From the American Humane Society Website

http://www.humanesociety.org/issues/campaigns/factory_farming/

"Nearly all animals killed for food in the U.S. are chickens and turkeys—more than nine billion each year. They're shackled upside down, paralyzed by electrified water and dragged over mechanical throat-cutting blades ... all while conscious. Millions of birds each year miss the blades and drown in tanks of scalding water."

"Factory farms cram egg-laying hens into cages so tiny they can't even spread their wings. Breeding pigs and veal calves are stuffed into cramped individual cages barely larger than their bodies. They can’t walk or turn around"

"Foie gras (French for “fatty liver”) is the product of extreme animal cruelty. Factory farms produce it by force feeding ducks so much that their livers become diseased and enlarged. This causes a tremendous amount of suffering and can make it difficult for the birds to walk and breathe normally."

As for the licence thing, ok, I change my views, don't go fishing without a licence. I am a vegetarian. I don't think  anyone should eat meat period, except indigenous tribes who depend on it. :shrug:


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Everything I post is fiction.

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Offlinebroken
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Re: The problem with eating meat [Re: Moonshoe]
    #14445394 - 05/13/11 12:56 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

so now your argument is we should't eat meat because of the cruel way the animals die. :rolleyes:

plants have to die too you know. and if you eat yeast flacks, those are still alive when you eat them!

things die so other live. it's the way of the world.


--------------------
:willynilly:

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InvisiblePoid
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Re: The problem with eating meat [Re: Moonshoe]
    #14445412 - 05/13/11 12:59 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

That's another biased source, I asked for an unbiased source. It doesn't explain, in detail, which companies/corporations are responsible for such treatment of animals, and where such treatment is occurring (is it all occurring in the USA?). Not all companies/corporations who sell meat are responsible for such treatment of animals, and different slaughterhouses have different slaughtering practices.


I am a vegetarian. I don't think  anyone should eat meat period, except indigenous tribes who depend on it.

Why do you care what other people do? What if I owned a farm and raised my own cattle..would you think that I shouldn't eat my own farm-raised beef? :what:


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

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InvisibleMoonshoe
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Re: The problem with eating meat [Re: broken]
    #14445421 - 05/13/11 01:03 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

"so now your argument is we should't eat meat because of the cruel way the animals die"

I think that eating an animal that died in cruel ways is unethical, and yes, I think that is a damn good reason not to eat meat, if you have  any compassion.

"plants have to die too you know. and if you eat yeast flacks, those are still alive when you eat them"

Yes, but it seems evident they dont have the same capacity for emotional and physical suffering as animals, and, as I already pointed out, when you eat animal meat you are also indirectly eating a large quantity of plants needed to raise that animal. So when you eat meat, you are not sparing plants, but when you eat plants, you ARE sparing animals.


--------------------


Everything I post is fiction.

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OfflineNetDiver
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Re: The problem with eating meat [Re: broken]
    #14445423 - 05/13/11 01:03 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

This thread is filled with so much bullshit.

Yes, we have to eat some kind of living thing to survive. That does not make eating plants in any way equivalent to eating animals. :facepalm: Plants do not have nervous systems, so we have every reason to believe that they cannot feel pain. 99.9% of animals, on the other hand, most certainly can.

Furthermore, we can get all the nutrients we need by being vegetarian. Eating meat is a choice, it is not necessary for survival.


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InvisibleMoonshoe
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Re: The problem with eating meat [Re: Poid]
    #14445439 - 05/13/11 01:06 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

"That's another biased source, I asked for an unbiased source."

In epistemological terms, there is no such thing as a truly unbiased source. Everyone comes at things from their own perspective, and that is all a "bias" is.


"It doesn't explain, in detail, which companies/corporations are responsible for such treatment of animals, and where such treatment is occurring (is it all occurring in the USA?). Not all companies/corporations who sell meat are responsible for such treatment of animals, and different slaughterhouses have different slaughtering practices."

At this point you are asking me to write you a research report. I get paid to do that for other people, and if you start paying me I might consider doing it for you. Until then, you can do some reading for yourself. I am not your employee.

I have given you two sources to validate my claims, and if they dont satisy you that is your problem, not mine.



"Why do you care what other people do? What if I owned a farm and raised my own cattle..would you think that I shouldn't eat my own farm-raised beef?"

Ethically speaking, I don't think anyone should unnecessarily kill animals when they can as easily subsist on plants. I don't expect everyone to agree, but I don't apologize for my viewpoints either.


--------------------


Everything I post is fiction.

Edited by Moonshoe (05/13/11 01:11 PM)

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Offlinebroken
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Re: The problem with eating meat [Re: NetDiver]
    #14445473 - 05/13/11 01:15 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

is a pack of wolves hunting deer concerned about the deers feeling or the pain it will feel when they attack it?

you missed the whole point, so i'll repeat it: things die so other live. it's the way of the world.

you think no-one should it meat because you think it's cruel. well i think everyone one should eat a large dose of mushrooms and sit in the woods with a bible until they find God. these are our opinions, we should not force them on others.

what do u think, meat should be outlawed? what would we do with all the livestock? what about all the farmer's, meat packer's, butcher's and trucker's that would be out of work.

be a realist, not an idealist.


--------------------
:willynilly:

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InvisibleMoonshoe
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Re: The problem with eating meat [Re: broken]
    #14445482 - 05/13/11 01:18 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

"these are our opinions, we should not force them on others."

Lets get one thing straight. All I am doing is posting my opinions on a message board forum. That does not qualify as "forcing them on others". If you didn't want to read opinions, what are you doing on this message board?

At what point did I "force" you to read any of this?

Also, wolves don't have the option of eating vegetables instead of deer. We do.


--------------------


Everything I post is fiction.

Edited by Moonshoe (05/13/11 01:18 PM)

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InvisiblePoid
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Re: The problem with eating meat [Re: Moonshoe]
    #14445536 - 05/13/11 01:29 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Moonshoe said:
"That's another biased source, I asked for an unbiased source."

In epistemological terms, there is no such thing as a truly unbiased source. Everyone comes at things from their own perspective, and that is all a "bias" is.


Oh c'mon, don't give me that bullshit. :lol:

Give me a source whose perspective isn't biased against slaughterhouses..you know this is what I'm asking for, stop trying to evade shit.


Quote:

Moonshoe said:
"It doesn't explain, in detail, which companies/corporations are responsible for such treatment of animals, and where such treatment is occurring (is it all occurring in the USA?). Not all companies/corporations who sell meat are responsible for such treatment of animals, and different slaughterhouses have different slaughtering practices."

At this point you are asking me to write you a research report.


No I'm not..it shouldn't take too long to discover that information if your source is worth a shit.


Quote:

Moonshoe said:
I get paid to do that for other people, and if you start paying me I might consider doing it for you. Until then, you can do some reading for yourself. I am not your employee.


You are also not a user who understands the rules of this forum..this is the second time you've refused to back up your claims when the burden of proof is on you. If you don't wish to debate further, and would rather cop-out, then that's fine. :grin:


Quote:

Moonshoe said:
I have given you two sources to validate my claims, and if they dont satisy you that is your problem, not mine.


The credibility of your sources is suspect, that's why I asked for an unbiased source.


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

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OfflineNetDiver
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Re: The problem with eating meat [Re: broken]
    #14445545 - 05/13/11 01:30 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

closed veil said:
is a pack of wolves hunting deer concerned about the deers feeling or the pain it will feel when they attack it?



No, but I'm not a wolf. I'm a rational human being.

Quote:

you missed the whole point, so i'll repeat it: things die so other live. it's the way of the world.



You missed the whole point too -- plants cannot feel pain, animals can. There is a big difference.

Quote:

you think no-one should it meat because you think it's cruel. well i think everyone one should eat a large dose of mushrooms and sit in the woods with a bible until they find God. these are our opinions, we should not force them on others.



I'm offering my opinion on eating meat in a thread about eating meat. How is that forcing my opinion on others? What are you even talking about? :what:

Quote:

what do u think, meat should be outlawed? what would we do with all the livestock? what about all the farmer's, meat packer's, butcher's and trucker's that would be out of work.



Did I ever say it should be outlawed? Amazing how many people tell me what my opinions are, despite having a generally poor understanding of them.

Quote:

be a realist, not an idealist.



I am a realist, and realistically, I can survive and enjoy food just fine without slaughtering animals to enjoy the taste of their flesh. You haven't proven one thing, or even made a valid point. :shrug:


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