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OfflinexFrockx
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Re: The problem with eating meat [Re: Moonshoe]
    #14444085 - 05/13/11 07:31 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

"The sobering fact is that to produce “one kilo of edible meat product” requires the use of “around thirteen kilograms of feed grains” resulting in a huge burden on land use."

You can eat the thirteen kilos of feed grains, I'll take the 2.2lbs of steak.

"However, eating meat remains a choice, not a necessity, and it is an ecologically unsound choice at that, except in rare situations where (usually indigenous) groups rely on traditional hunting methods."

Who are you to say that it is an unsound choice for humans to destroy the environment? I've got some news for you:

Quote:

We’re so self-important. So self-important. Everybody’s going to save something now. “Save the trees, save the bees, save the whales, save those snails.” And the greatest arrogance of all: save the planet. What? Are these fucking people kidding me? Save the planet, we don’t even know how to take care of ourselves yet. We haven’t learned how to care for one another, we’re gonna save the fucking planet?

I’m getting tired of that shit. Tired of that shit. I’m tired of fucking Earth Day, I’m tired of these self-righteous environmentalists, these white, bourgeois liberals who think the only thing wrong with this country is there aren’t enough bicycle paths. People trying to make the world save for their Volvos. Besides, environmentalists don’t give a shit about the planet. They don’t care about the planet. Not in the abstract they don’t. Not in the abstract they don’t. You know what they’re interested in? A clean place to live. Their own habitat. They’re worried that some day in the future, they might be personally inconvenienced. Narrow, unenlightened self-interest doesn’t impress me.

Besides, there is nothing wrong with the planet. Nothing wrong with the planet. The planet is fine. The PEOPLE are fucked. Difference. Difference. The planet is fine. Compared to the people, the planet is doing great. Been here four and a half billion years. Did you ever think about the arithmetic? The planet has been here four and a half billion years. We’ve been here, what, a hundred thousand? Maybe two hundred thousand? And we’ve only been engaged in heavy industry for a little over two hundred years. Two hundred years versus four and a half billion. And we have the CONCEIT to think that somehow we’re a threat? That somehow we’re gonna put in jeopardy this beautiful little blue-green ball that’s just a-floatin’ around the sun?

The planet has been through a lot worse than us. Been through all kinds of things worse than us. Been through earthquakes, volcanoes, plate tectonics, continental drift, solar flares, sun spots, magnetic storms, the magnetic reversal of the poles…hundreds of thousands of years of bombardment by comets and asteroids and meteors, worlwide floods, tidal waves, worldwide fires, erosion, cosmic rays, recurring ice ages…And we think some plastic bags, and some aluminum cans are going to make a difference? The planet…the planet…the planet isn’t going anywhere. WE ARE!

We’re going away. Pack your shit, folks. We’re going away. And we won’t leave much of a trace, either. Thank God for that. Maybe a little styrofoam. Maybe. A little styrofoam. The planet’ll be here and we’ll be long gone. Just another failed mutation. Just another closed-end biological mistake. An evolutionary cul-de-sac. The planet’ll shake us off like a bad case of fleas. A surface nuisance.

You wanna know how the planet’s doing? Ask those people at Pompeii, who are frozen into position from volcanic ash, how the planet’s doing. You wanna know if the planet’s all right, ask those people in Mexico City or Armenia or a hundred other places buried under thousands of tons of earthquake rubble, if they feel like a threat to the planet this week. Or how about those people in Kilowaia, Hawaii, who built their homes right next to an active volcano, and then wonder why they have lava in the living room.

The planet will be here for a long, long, LONG time after we’re gone, and it will heal itself, it will cleanse itself, ’cause that’s what it does. It’s a self-correcting system. The air and the water will recover, the earth will be renewed, and if it’s true that plastic is not degradable, well, the planet will simply incorporate plastic into a new pardigm: the earth plus plastic. The earth doesn’t share our prejudice towards plastic. Plastic came out of the earth. The earth probably sees plastic as just another one of its children. Could be the only reason the earth allowed us to be spawned from it in the first place. It wanted plastic for itself. Didn’t know how to make it. Needed us. Could be the answer to our age-old egocentric philosophical question, “Why are we here?” Plastic…asshole.

So, the plastic is here, our job is done, we can be phased out now. And I think that’s begun. Don’t you think that’s already started? I think, to be fair, the planet sees us as a mild threat. Something to be dealt with. And the planet can defend itself in an organized, collective way, the way a beehive or an ant colony can. A collective defense mechanism. The planet will think of something. What would you do if you were the planet? How would you defend yourself against this troublesome, pesky species? Let’s see… Viruses. Viruses might be good. They seem vulnerable to viruses. And, uh…viruses are tricky, always mutating and forming new strains whenever a vaccine is developed. Perhaps, this first virus could be one that compromises the immune system of these creatures. Perhaps a human immunodeficiency virus, making them vulnerable to all sorts of other diseases and infections that might come along. And maybe it could be spread sexually, making them a little reluctant to engage in the act of reproduction.

Well, that’s a poetic note. And it’s a start. And I can dream, can’t I? See I don’t worry about the little things: bees, trees, whales, snails. I think we’re part of a greater wisdom than we will ever understand. A higher order. Call it what you want. Know what I call it? The Big Electron. The Big Electron…whoooa. Whoooa. Whoooa. It doesn’t punish, it doesn’t reward, it doesn’t judge at all. It just is. And so are we. For a little while.



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Invisiblesandi
omg


Registered: 04/11/11
Posts: 796
Loc: M6 (Butterfly Cluster)
Re: The problem with eating meat [Re: xFrockx]
    #14444132 - 05/13/11 07:48 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

I love how it only took one response for this thread to totally go off course. The whole point was that raising meat in the ecologically destructive manner we do in modern agriculture is not sustainable. That's all.

There wasn't really a problem with eating meat itself or humans needing meat. That is beside the point.

So some relevant thoughts: how do we avoid destroying the planet while providing enough meat for society? Humans can barely accept cloned vegetables with some countries banning them. They would hardly accept cloned meat if we could easily provide it for cheap, though it would knock out using up and stripping resources and creating literally tons of pollution in the form of animal wastes, fertilizers, etc. that go into factory farming.

Or perhaps we need to start realizing and caring that future generations are going to be totally fucked when we can't even support humans, let alone hordes of factory farmed animals. But oh well, that's not our concern right now, right? Well, even if it is (plenty of intelligent people know this), we can't do anything about it. Protests? Boycott meat? Yeah, right. That's going to work (not). Boycotts only work if you can actually damage sales, and there will never be enough people that can boycott it all at once for it to damage the industry.


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OfflineUnison
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Registered: 11/08/10
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Re: The problem with eating meat [Re: sandi]
    #14444147 - 05/13/11 07:53 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Until you find a way to produce food out of space rocks, there is no solution to this problem.

Life is inherently dependent on other life. You can sugar coat this by eating plants instead of animals, but when it boils down, life has to consume life. You will always live off of death.

Edited by Unison (05/13/11 07:53 AM)

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InvisibleMoonshoe
Blue Mantis
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Registered: 05/28/04
Posts: 27,202
Loc: Iceland
Re: The problem with eating meat [Re: Unison]
    #14444159 - 05/13/11 07:57 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

"Life is inherently dependent on other life. You can sugar coat this by eating plants instead of animals, but when it boils down, life has to consume life. You will always live off of death."

Yes, but the whole point of this post is that when you eat meat, you live off 13x more death then when you live off of vegetables.


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Everything I post is fiction.

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OfflineUnison
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Re: The problem with eating meat [Re: Moonshoe]
    #14444169 - 05/13/11 08:02 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Moonshoe said:
Yes, but the whole point of this post is that when you eat meat, you live off 13x more death then when you live off of vegetables.



Fine. But causing 1/13 the death does not solve the problem. Eventually, we will have 13 times the population, and will run into the same dilema.

The only solution would be to artificially manufacture basic nutrients required for humans.

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Offlineargg
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Re: The problem with eating meat [Re: Unison]
    #14444403 - 05/13/11 09:08 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

I am a level 7 vegan. I do not eat anything that casts a shadow.




On a serious note I have been messing with aquaponics as a closed loop system to produce a decent amount of food for myself that is envoirnmetally sound. Large amounts of veggies can be grow with the fish poop then waste sections of the plants can be composted with worms and flies. The worms and fly larva can be fed to the fish along with extra plant materials so other then adding fish pellets to the system if I get lazy about fly/worm production it could be closed loop self cleaning with 0 water diversion if rainwater is used. I doubt 0 water use as well water would be used but water changes are only needed in an emergency in an aquaponics system.


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InvisibleMoonshoe
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Registered: 05/28/04
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Re: The problem with eating meat [Re: Unison]
    #14444440 - 05/13/11 09:21 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

"The only solution would be to artificially manufacture basic nutrients required for humans. "

I do not agree with this. Why artificially manufacture basic nutrients that are already abundant in nature?

A better solution would be for humans to shift to a vegetarian diet, then control population growth through widespread adoption of voluntary fertility reduction via condoms, birthcontrol, vasectomies etc.


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Everything I post is fiction.

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InvisibleMoonshoe
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Registered: 05/28/04
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Re: The problem with eating meat [Re: argg]
    #14444445 - 05/13/11 09:22 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

"On a serious note I have been messing with aquaponics as a closed loop system to produce a decent amount of food for myself that is envoirnmetally sound. Large amounts of veggies can be grow with the fish poop then waste sections of the plants can be composted with worms and flies. The worms and fly larva can be fed to the fish along with extra plant materials so other then adding fish pellets to the system if I get lazy about fly/worm production it could be closed loop self cleaning with 0 water diversion if rainwater is used. I doubt 0 water use as well water would be used but water changes are only needed in an emergency in an aquaponics system."

I commend you for this. This is exactly the kind of environmentally sound and creative solutions that we need, based on closed-loop principles of ecology.

:thumbup:


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Everything I post is fiction.

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OfflineUnison
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Registered: 11/08/10
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Loc: Colorado Flag
Last seen: 11 years, 7 months
Re: The problem with eating meat [Re: Moonshoe]
    #14444581 - 05/13/11 10:01 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Moonshoe said:
I do not agree with this. Why artificially manufacture basic nutrients that are already abundant in nature?

A better solution would be for humans to shift to a vegetarian diet,




They will not always be abundant, no matter what diet you switch to.

Look. You're looking for the solution to the effect of a problem.

Quote:

Moonshoe said:
then control population growth through widespread adoption of voluntary fertility reduction via condoms, birthcontrol, vasectomies etc.



There. The root of the problem is overpopulation. The problem is NOT the fact that we eat meat.

We have outgrown Earth. Plain and simple.

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OfflineUnison
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Registered: 11/08/10
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Re: The problem with eating meat [Re: Moonshoe]
    #14444586 - 05/13/11 10:02 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Moonshoe said:I commend you for this. This is exactly the kind of environmentally sound and creative solutions that we need, based on closed-loop principles of ecology.

:thumbup:



That can never work large scale, long term. No matter how ideal it is to you.

Earth is an example of that.

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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Registered: 04/01/07
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Re: The problem with eating meat [Re: Moonshoe]
    #14444709 - 05/13/11 10:27 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

The sobering fact is that to produce “one kilo of edible meat product” requires the use of “around thirteen kilograms of feed grains”




So if we all ate nothing but grains, we could have 13 times as many people on the planet or about 91 billion people. That should lessen the impact.

Of course, I am only semi-joking, but the principle remains the same. Become more proficient = more mouths to feed. Not sure why you keep missing this over and over again.


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InvisibleMoonshoe
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Re: The problem with eating meat [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #14444844 - 05/13/11 10:49 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

"become more proficient = more mouths to feed. Not sure why you keep missing this over and over again. "

Unless we implement widespread fertility reduction programs, as I have already indicated is necessary.


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Everything I post is fiction.

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OfflineUnison
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Re: The problem with eating meat [Re: Moonshoe]
    #14444864 - 05/13/11 10:52 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Moonshoe said:
"become more proficient = more mouths to feed. Not sure why you keep missing this over and over again. "

Unless we implement widespread fertility reduction programs, as I have already indicated is necessary.



Sounds great.

So eating meat is not the problem.

Edited by Unison (05/13/11 10:52 AM)

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Offlinesmurf_master
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Registered: 04/26/11
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Re: The problem with eating meat [Re: Unison] * 1
    #14444869 - 05/13/11 10:54 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

If you take away my steaks I will kill you

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InvisibleMoonshoe
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Re: The problem with eating meat [Re: Unison]
    #14444906 - 05/13/11 11:02 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

In order to respond to the environmental crisis we will need to simultaneously reduce consumption (e.g. by not eating meat) and population (fertility reduction programs).

Both aspects are urgently needed.


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Everything I post is fiction.

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OfflineUnison
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Re: The problem with eating meat [Re: Moonshoe]
    #14444943 - 05/13/11 11:11 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Or we could just slow reproduction.

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OfflinexFrockx
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Re: The problem with eating meat [Re: Moonshoe]
    #14444982 - 05/13/11 11:17 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

How about you stop eating not only meat, but anything at all. You'll reduce consumption more that way. While you're at it, get yourself sterilized, and don't waste those testicles!

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Offlinesmurf_master
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Re: The problem with eating meat [Re: Unison]
    #14444985 - 05/13/11 11:17 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

People should be forced to take a variety of IQ/EQ/psychological tests to and if you fail you can't have kids. That way we weed out of incompetent parents.

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OfflinexFrockx
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Re: The problem with eating meat [Re: smurf_master]
    #14444991 - 05/13/11 11:19 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

"That way we weed out of incompetent parents. "

Is it a grammar test?


How about we sterilize anyone who wants to test people to sterilize them?

Edited by xFrockx (05/13/11 11:20 AM)

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Invisiblehelix
Idealist Thinker Musician Lover
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Re: The problem with eating meat [Re: Moonshoe]
    #14444997 - 05/13/11 11:19 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Moonshoe said:And anyone who hunts or fishes their own meat, in my opinnion, is exempt from any ecological blame, as eating locally and naturally by hunting or fishing yourself is environmentally friendly in that it reduces transportation and thus carbon emissions, and it is ethically valid in that you can ensure that the animal is slaughtered humanely and not mistreated grotesquely as with factory farmed meat.




What about purchasing food stuffs direct from local growers or farmers? I've got a link to a rad Meat Community supported agriculture group for anyone who lives in the San Francisco Bay Area, message me if anyone's interested!

Anyway, I agree with people who are saying that not eating meat really isn't the solution, because the crops that vegetarians may depend on are grown in enormous monocultures that will destroy the diversity of our land if our over-the-top population all decided to go veggie. We live in a pretty meat-obsessed culture, for sure, so i see how being vegetarian could be a way of making up for the ridiculous population who uses meat as 70% of their diet. Meat does NOT have to take up that enormous of a portion of our meals.

What's a far more important solution and still holds up when you apply it to everyone on the planet, i think is using permaculture techniques, growing our own food, and eating as diverse a diet as possible. Meat CAN be sustainable, so we have to stop buying meat from just any old source, and start supporting farms and livestock raisers who are striving to use those sustainable organic techniques, and are esteemed enough to not sell-out once they get enough financial support to catch the attention of big meat companies who will want to buy them out.

Everyone who hasn't read michael pollen, DO IT.

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