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Anonymous

Once again America is the Greatest Nation in the World.
    #1444384 - 04/09/03 07:55 PM (21 years, 12 days ago)

Watching the happy Iraqis actually brought a tear to my eye.

Edited by TackleBerry (04/09/03 08:03 PM)

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Offlinearabmobster
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Registered: 04/01/03
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Re: Once again America is the Greatest Nation in the World. [Re: TackleBerry]
    #1444420 - 04/09/03 08:03 PM (21 years, 12 days ago)

why did it bring a tear to your eye
because you guys will have more oil

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Anonymous

Re: Once again America is the Greatest Nation in the World. [Re: arabmobster]
    #1444431 - 04/09/03 08:05 PM (21 years, 12 days ago)

Quote:

why did it bring a tear to your eye
because you guys will have more oil




Did you not read my post? It was the joy of the Iraqis.
Bring your spoil somewhere else.

Edited by TackleBerry (04/09/03 08:05 PM)

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Anonymous

Re: Once again America is the Greatest Nation in the World. [Re: TackleBerry]
    #1444432 - 04/09/03 08:05 PM (21 years, 12 days ago)

Mine too TB but don't get carried away.

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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: Once again America is the Greatest Nation in the World. [Re: TackleBerry]
    #1444438 - 04/09/03 08:06 PM (21 years, 12 days ago)

Even I have to admit that I'm glad to see Saddam gone. I just hope we're right about Iraq becoming a free democracy.


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire

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InvisiblePsiloKitten
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Re: Once again America is the Greatest Nation in the World. [Re: TackleBerry]
    #1444439 - 04/09/03 08:07 PM (21 years, 12 days ago)

How many different threads would you like to start about this?

Just curious.


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Anonymous

Re: Once again America is the Greatest Nation in the World. [Re: ]
    #1444440 - 04/09/03 08:07 PM (21 years, 12 days ago)

I won't MM, I promise hehe. :laugh:

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Anonymous

Re: Once again America is the Greatest Nation in the World. [Re: PsiloKitten]
    #1444459 - 04/09/03 08:10 PM (21 years, 12 days ago)

Oh probably as many as you do. Didn't know my opinion wasn't welcomed, but all the better now.

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InvisibleInnvertigo
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Re: Once again America is the Greatest Nation in the World. [Re: TackleBerry]
    #1444463 - 04/09/03 08:12 PM (21 years, 12 days ago)

I thought for sure that, that statue was going to fall on that guy. I wouldn't say i was crying but i felt really good and likened it to being in prison since birth and then one day you're free to do what you want to do. I think the whole world should feel how good it is to be free.


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson

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Anonymous

Re: Once again America is the Greatest Nation in the World. [Re: Innvertigo]
    #1444472 - 04/09/03 08:14 PM (21 years, 12 days ago)

I, too, was moved by the joy of the Iraqi people.

I'm not being sarcastic, either. I felt genuine elation at them expressing their freedom.

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OfflineAngry Mycologist
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Re: Once again America is the Greatest Nation in the World. [Re: TackleBerry]
    #1444752 - 04/09/03 09:39 PM (21 years, 12 days ago)

Quote:

Once again America is the Greatest Nation in the World. 



Sounds like a football game.  Be humble my friend.  :smirk: 


--------------------
The proper penalty of ignorance, which is of course that those who don't know should learn from those who do... - Plato

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InvisiblePsiloKitten
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Re: Once again America is the Greatest Nation in the World. [Re: Angry Mycologist]
    #1444795 - 04/09/03 09:54 PM (21 years, 12 days ago)

Angry Mycologist, thanks for that reminder.

Since others have said it much better, I will let them do the talking:

"In the absence of justice, what is sovereignty but organized robbery?"
St. Augustine


--------------------

Edited by PsiloKitten (04/09/03 10:02 PM)

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InvisibleEvolving
Resident Cynic

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Re: Once again America is the Greatest Nation in the World. [Re: PsiloKitten]
    #1445186 - 04/09/03 11:26 PM (21 years, 12 days ago)

"What is taxation but legalized extortion?"
- Evolving


--------------------
To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.

Edited by Evolving (04/09/03 11:31 PM)

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Invisiblecarbonhoots
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Re: Once again America is the Greatest Nation in the World. [Re: Evolving]
    #1445431 - 04/10/03 12:27 AM (21 years, 12 days ago)

Investment in civilization, to be directed from a democratic source.


--------------------
  -I'd rather have a frontal lobotomy than a bottle in front of me

CANADIAN CENTER FOR POLICY ALTERNATIVES

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InvisibleEvolving
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Re: Once again America is the Greatest Nation in the World. [Re: carbonhoots]
    #1446101 - 04/10/03 09:50 AM (21 years, 11 days ago)

Investment? Ha ha ha ha, that's rich. Typical leftists double speak, Orwell would be proud.


--------------------
To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.

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OfflineAzmodeus
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Re: Once again America is the Greatest Nation in the World. [Re: Innvertigo]
    #1446294 - 04/10/03 11:14 AM (21 years, 11 days ago)

Quote:

being in prison since birth and then one day you're free to do what you want to do. I think the whole world should feel how good it is to be free. 




And what happens to animals that have been raised in captivity and then released into "freedom"?  These people dont know how to live free, lucky for them america is there to teach them the "true" meaning of freedom... :smirk:

...out of the frying pan and onto the frier... :tongue:


--------------------
"Know your Body - Know your Mind - Know your Substance - Know your Source.

Lest we forget. "

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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: Once again America is the Greatest Nation in the World. [Re: Evolving]
    #1446302 - 04/10/03 11:18 AM (21 years, 11 days ago)

Quote:

Investment? Ha ha ha ha, that's rich. Typical leftists double speak, Orwell would be proud.



He may very well have been. Orwell was a Socialist.


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire

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OfflineDogomush
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Re: Once again America is the Greatest Nation in the World. [Re: silversoul7]
    #1446551 - 04/10/03 12:32 PM (21 years, 11 days ago)

Funny.. I've seen lots of footage of the Iraqis jumping up and down cheering Saddam. Now Saddam's gone, and the most powerful military in the world is occupying Iraq. Cheering freedom or appeasing the new occupying forces out of fear for their lives? Not that I think they should be fearing for their lives at all, I'm just wondering what they're actually thinking.. It's hard to know not being them, so I wouldn't be so quick to pretend to know the motivation behind their actions.


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OfflineAzmodeus
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Re: Once again America is the Greatest Nation in the World. [Re: Dogomush]
    #1446569 - 04/10/03 12:35 PM (21 years, 11 days ago)

Yeah, big surprise they "seem" happy. Such a reaction would occur no matter what.....its called survival instinct. Saddams regime is of little consequence, either america will control iraq, or another dictator shall rise to power.


--------------------
"Know your Body - Know your Mind - Know your Substance - Know your Source.

Lest we forget. "

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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: Once again America is the Greatest Nation in the World. [Re: Dogomush]
    #1446588 - 04/10/03 12:39 PM (21 years, 11 days ago)

Excellent point Dog. I've seen far wilder and more joyful crowds cheering Saddam than anything for the americans.


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi

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OfflineAzmodeus
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Re: Once again America is the Greatest Nation in the World. [Re: Xlea321]
    #1446627 - 04/10/03 12:49 PM (21 years, 11 days ago)

...they must have liked saddam better...


--------------------
"Know your Body - Know your Mind - Know your Substance - Know your Source.

Lest we forget. "

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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: Once again America is the Greatest Nation in the World. [Re: Azmodeus]
    #1446634 - 04/10/03 12:51 PM (21 years, 11 days ago)

It used to bring a tear to my eye when I saw them joyfully cheering Saddam.


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi

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OfflineAzmodeus
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Re: Once again America is the Greatest Nation in the World. [Re: Xlea321]
    #1446648 - 04/10/03 12:54 PM (21 years, 11 days ago)

...*sniff*.....me too.... :frown:


--------------------
"Know your Body - Know your Mind - Know your Substance - Know your Source.

Lest we forget. "

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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: Once again America is the Greatest Nation in the World. [Re: Xlea321]
    #1446651 - 04/10/03 12:55 PM (21 years, 11 days ago)

I cry whenever I see blind patriotism anywhere.


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire

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OfflineDogomush
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Re: Once again America is the Greatest Nation in the World. [Re: Azmodeus]
    #1446652 - 04/10/03 12:55 PM (21 years, 11 days ago)

ahahaha funny shit

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InvisibleInnvertigo
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Re: Once again America is the Greatest Nation in the World. [Re: Azmodeus]
    #1446655 - 04/10/03 12:55 PM (21 years, 11 days ago)

Quote:

And what happens to animals that have been raised in captivity and then released into "freedom"?



first, we're not animals. Second these people have wanted to be free for years, unlike an animal that doesn't know any better. Third, that's why we're not just leaving after the war is done. Freedom is something EVERYONE wants and has the ability to do well.

Quote:

These people dont know how to live free




That's BS, everyone knows how to be free, in this case they weren't allowed to be.

Quote:

lucky for them america is there to teach them the "true" meaning of freedom...




We are the only people that are willing, and this assumption that we aren't free is a joke, Just because you can't smoke a joint on the white house steps (which i feel we should) doesn't mean we aren't free.

Quote:

out of the frying pan and onto the frier...




This made no sense whatsoever. Are you implying that the Iraqi's we more free than americans?


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson

Edited by Innvertigo (04/10/03 01:06 PM)

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OfflineAzmodeus
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Re: Once again America is the Greatest Nation in the World. [Re: Innvertigo]
    #1446695 - 04/10/03 01:06 PM (21 years, 11 days ago)

Quote:

Quote:

And what happens to animals that have been raised in captivity and then released into "freedom"? 



first, we're not animals.  Second these people have wanted to be free for years, unlike an animal that doesn't know any better. Third, that's why we're not just leaving after the war is done.  Freedom is something EVERYONE wants and has the ability to do well. 




freedom may be something they've wanted, but they do not "know" freedom.  I was not comparing iraqis to animals i was making an analogy between not having the skills required to survive in a new enviornment.  Do they know about business? free trade? economics?  People say that the iraqis were brainwashed sheep cowering in fear, but what makes you think that just because they got what they wanted they are ready and prepared to deal with it?  This remains to be seen, but sincerely doubt it with thier poor education, and americans standing by with "a helping hand" or in the other comparisson, the same as "free food".



Quote:

These people dont know how to live free




That's BS, everyone knows how to be free, in this case they weren't allowed to be. 




True, but are they able to stabalise thier decimated country?  do they have the knowledge? know-how? resources?  willingness? direcrtion? Not everyone knows how to be free, especially if all its ever been was an elusive dream!



Quote:

lucky for them america is there to teach them the "true" meaning of freedom... 




We are the only people that are willing.  And this assumption that we aren't free is a joke, Just because you can't smoke a joint on the white house steps (which i feel we should) doesn't mean we aren't free. 




One in every 142 people living in the United States was in jail last year.
US population = 286 million (more than 2 million inmates)
China population = 1.3 billion (1.4 million inmates)
12%of blacks between the age of 20 and 30 in jail....LAST YEAR!
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/in_depth/2925973.stm
:smirk:..of course!




Quote:

out of the frying pan and onto the frier... 




This made no sense whatsoever.  Are you implying that the Iraqi's we more free than americans? 




Im implying the iraqis dont understand what accepting american aid means for thier future "freedom" which will be whatever america tells them it is, because they've never had freedom to begin with or to c0mpare to.  Also i think the US will be going over to syria, turkey, and iran...all in good time.  First they need to establish themselves in iraq....or "help re-build".

peace.


--------------------
"Know your Body - Know your Mind - Know your Substance - Know your Source.

Lest we forget. "

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InvisibleInnvertigo
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Re: Once again America is the Greatest Nation in the World. [Re: Azmodeus]
    #1446759 - 04/10/03 01:19 PM (21 years, 11 days ago)

Quote:

Do they know about business? free trade? economics




If they don't (which i have no idea if they do) we can teach them. It would be nice if other nations would help us out.

Quote:

People say that the iraqis were brainwashed sheep cowering in fear, but what makes you think that just because they got what they wanted they are ready and prepared to deal with it?




I think that's a better question for those that are now freed. I have been free all my life. To even suggest that people aren't ready to be free is disturbing.

Quote:

True, but are they able to stabalise thier decimated country? do they have the knowledge? know-how? resources? willingness? direcrtion?




That's why we aren't leaving until they can run these situations on their own. Even after our troops leave we will be assisting them (i would imagine)

Quote:

Not everyone knows how to be free, especially if all its ever been was an elusive dream!




It doesn't take long to figure out how to handle freedom. I would agree if a society gave all the people everything they need then one day take all of it away but in this case i'll have to disagree.

Quote:

One in every 142 people living in the United States was in jail last year.




How many of them committed a crime?

Quote:

China population = 1.3 billion (1.4 million inmates)




how many were killed? and are they included in those numbers?

Quote:

12%of blacks between the age of 20 and 30 in jail....LAST YEAR!




How many of them committed a crime?

Quote:

Im implying the iraqis dont understand what accepting american aid means for thier future "freedom" which will be whatever america tells them it is,




That's not possible...besides the Iraqi people will still be running their own government. I know that's laughable to many, but would you rather have France running the government?

Quote:

. Also i think the US will be going over to syria, turkey, and iran...all in good time.




I don't see us going into any of those countries anytime soon, if at all. I believe they've learned something during this war. I think we will alienate Syria and many americans will agree to this. Besides Turkey is our ally.


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson

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OfflineAzmodeus
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Re: Once again America is the Greatest Nation in the World. [Re: Innvertigo]
    #1446782 - 04/10/03 01:26 PM (21 years, 11 days ago)

Hmmm, well i see where your coming from, and you make excellent points!  But what if....and i say i tentatively...what if the american goal in iraq isn't as humanitarian as they claim it is?  What if this is to be a power seat in which they may "liberate" other muslim regimes?  You cannot deny the have a hundred times more to gain from unoble intentions, and looking at your current governments history, it is all disturbingly convenient.  I would like to think like you....i really would, its just i've read to much to be spoon fed the "we're doing this for the iraqi people" crap. :frown:


--------------------
"Know your Body - Know your Mind - Know your Substance - Know your Source.

Lest we forget. "

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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: Once again America is the Greatest Nation in the World. [Re: Innvertigo]
    #1446805 - 04/10/03 01:31 PM (21 years, 11 days ago)

Even after our troops leave we will be assisting them (i would imagine)

Don't worry about that inny. We'll be "assisting" them until the oil runs out.


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi

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OfflineGazzBut
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Re: Once again America is the Greatest Nation in the World. [Re: Innvertigo]
    #1446815 - 04/10/03 01:33 PM (21 years, 11 days ago)

Quote:

I think the whole world should feel how good it is to be free.





I sincerely hope that one day we do.

PEACE


--------------------
Always Smi2le

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Offlinearabmobster
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Re: Once again America is the Greatest Nation in the World. [Re: Xlea321]
    #1446828 - 04/10/03 01:35 PM (21 years, 11 days ago)

the next dictator will be me hopefully
sha allah

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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: Once again America is the Greatest Nation in the World. [Re: GazzBut]
    #1446830 - 04/10/03 01:36 PM (21 years, 11 days ago)

Freedom is a vague term that means different things to different people, like patriotism, terrorism, or justice.


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire

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OfflineAzmodeus
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Re: Once again America is the Greatest Nation in the World. [Re: silversoul7]
    #1446851 - 04/10/03 01:42 PM (21 years, 11 days ago)

Ah, so thats why innvertigo "thinks" he's free! :wink:


--------------------
"Know your Body - Know your Mind - Know your Substance - Know your Source.

Lest we forget. "

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Offlineflow
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Re: Once again America is the Greatest Nation in the World. [Re: silversoul7]
    #1447026 - 04/10/03 02:36 PM (21 years, 11 days ago)

Quote:

Freedom is a vague term that means different things to different people, like patriotism, terrorism, or justice.



true, but can you honestly say that the iraqis are losing freedom by being rid of saddam? of course not. And is the US just supposed to leave the country leaderless? of course not. So what to do then? how about occupy the country until free elections can be held? Wait a minute that's just what we're planning to do!!

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Offlineflow
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Re: Once again America is the Greatest Nation in the World. [Re: Azmodeus]
    #1447051 - 04/10/03 02:41 PM (21 years, 11 days ago)

Quote:

This remains to be seen, but sincerely doubt it with thier poor education, and americans standing by with "a helping hand" or in the other comparisson, the same as "free food".



actually, the iraqi's are pretty highly educated at least compared to the rest of the middle east.
Quote:

do they have the knowledge? know-how? resources? willingness? direcrtion?



yes, yes, most definetly yes, yes, and maybe.
keeping iraq's economy sucessful is as simple as keeping the oil flowing.

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Offlineflow
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Re: Once again America is the Greatest Nation in the World. [Re: Azmodeus]
    #1447070 - 04/10/03 02:48 PM (21 years, 11 days ago)

Quote:

What if this is to be a power seat in which they may "liberate" other muslim regimes?



what's wrong with that? a lot of these regimes are just as bad if not worse that saddam. i just think we should do a lot more to try and get the people of these countries to revolt before we go in.
Quote:

You cannot deny the have a hundred times more to gain from unoble intentions,



maybe, but although i don't trust bush, i think his intentions are to stablize the middle east, not conquer it. Of course he will try and benefit himself and his friends as much as he can along the way. I think he would much rather go down in history as the president who brought peace to the middle east than the one who stole all their oil. And i don't think that he's stupid enough to believe that he could get away with "colonizing" the middle east.

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OfflineAzmodeus
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Re: Once again America is the Greatest Nation in the World. [Re: flow]
    #1447109 - 04/10/03 03:02 PM (21 years, 11 days ago)

Quote:

Quote:

This remains to be seen, but sincerely doubt it with thier poor education, and americans standing by with "a helping hand" or in the other comparisson, the same as "free food".



actually, the iraqi's are pretty highly educated at least compared to the rest of the middle east.




They CAN do it, if america doesn't fuck it up for them...but america does need to help them, and then let them go...and the billions invested in it too.



Quote:

do they have the knowledge? know-how? resources? willingness? direcrtion?



yes, yes, most definetly yes, yes, and maybe.
keeping iraq's economy sucessful is as simple as keeping the oil flowing.





Which is where american "assistance" steps in. I've no problem with america actually helping iraq, but i suspect instead they shall "westernise" it, and the iraqis will end up working for american businesses. Nothing wrong with this if the iraqis prosper and all have jobs to feed and cloth themseves, but then it just proves americas "real" intentions. Unless it was to stabalise the entire middle east....,but then yer still lying through your teeth.


--------------------
"Know your Body - Know your Mind - Know your Substance - Know your Source.

Lest we forget. "

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OfflineAzmodeus
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Re: Once again America is the Greatest Nation in the World. [Re: flow]
    #1447128 - 04/10/03 03:08 PM (21 years, 11 days ago)

Quote:

Quote:

What if this is to be a power seat in which they may "liberate" other muslim regimes? 



what's wrong with that?  a lot of these regimes are just as bad if not worse that saddam.  i just think we should do a lot more to try and get the people of these countries to revolt before we go in.




Ah-ha!! so i was right all along, and its not about wmd, or "tyrants", or even liberating the iraqi people....its about conquering land and establishing american control.



Quote:

  And i don't think that he's stupid enough to believe that he could get away with "colonizing" the middle east. 




Exactly why he'd conquer it. How else can you bring peace?  After america leaves it will be back the way it was for hundreds of years..


[edit] What a looong page! :ooo:


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"Know your Body - Know your Mind - Know your Substance - Know your Source.

Lest we forget. "

Edited by Azmodeus (04/10/03 03:10 PM)

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Offlineflow
outlaw immortal
Registered: 11/20/02
Posts: 496
Last seen: 9 years, 3 months
Re: Once again America is the Greatest Nation in the World. [Re: Azmodeus]
    #1447187 - 04/10/03 03:27 PM (21 years, 11 days ago)

Quote:

I've no problem with america actually helping iraq, but i suspect instead they shall "westernise" it, and the iraqis will end up working for american businesses. Nothing wrong with this if the iraqis prosper and all have jobs to feed and cloth themseves, but then it just proves americas "real" intentions.



i agree, there is a good chance that this will happen, and i really hope it will not. However bad this may be, is this worse than saddam? of course not.
Quote:

its about conquering land and establishing american control.



no, at least it shouldn't be, i guess we'll just have to wait and see. however, i don't think the middle east will ever be brought to peace unless the people rule themselves.
Quote:

How else can you bring peace? After america leaves it will be back the way it was for hundreds of years..



umm.. free democracies? america needs to learn from the mistakes of the past. we need to be unselfish when dealing with the people of these countries, and attempt to educate them and make them as self-sufficient as possible. if we can do this, we can leave the middle east to themselves. It will probably take decades though.

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OfflineAzmodeus
Seeker

Registered: 11/27/02
Posts: 3,392
Loc: Lotus Land!! B.C.
Last seen: 19 years, 3 months
Re: Once again America is the Greatest Nation in the World. [Re: flow]
    #1447228 - 04/10/03 03:36 PM (21 years, 11 days ago)

But such noble intentions from a shitbag like bush. :mad:  I read about him, and see the current situation and something doesn't add up.

How do you feel about patriot act and such? Isn't it very coincidental that all these new measures are being implemented during this war, when 9/11 was two years ago?!...how long will it stay this way? as long as necsessary?  The war on terrorism shall continue long after we're dead.

If bush was a strong leader with a solid background...or even a few members of his government, my sentiment may be different, but look at them! :shocked: 


--------------------
"Know your Body - Know your Mind - Know your Substance - Know your Source.

Lest we forget. "

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Offlineflow
outlaw immortal
Registered: 11/20/02
Posts: 496
Last seen: 9 years, 3 months
Re: Once again America is the Greatest Nation in the World. [Re: Azmodeus]
    #1447340 - 04/10/03 04:07 PM (21 years, 11 days ago)

Quote:

If bush was a strong leader with a solid background...or even a few members of his government, my sentiment may be different, but look at them!



i agree, but that still isnt a reason for not going into iraq. The only top guy i can think of who i would call good is Powell, and even he's been questionable lately....

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OfflineAngry Mycologist
Spontaneouslycombusting

Registered: 11/24/02
Posts: 1,282
Loc: Galapagos
Last seen: 20 years, 11 months
Re: Once again America is the Greatest Nation in the World. [Re: Innvertigo]
    #1447743 - 04/10/03 06:43 PM (21 years, 11 days ago)

Quote:

first, we're not animals.



Yes we are. Homo Sapien Sapien's to be exact. The only thing that differentiates us from any other species is that of self-awareness.

Quote:

Third, that's why we're not just leaving after the war is done. Freedom is something EVERYONE wants and has the ability to do well.



Read my new post and see what exactly this "freedom" ::cough::anarchy::cough:: entails.


--------------------
The proper penalty of ignorance, which is of course that those who don't know should learn from those who do... - Plato

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OfflineGazzBut
Refraction

Registered: 10/15/02
Posts: 4,773
Loc: London UK
Last seen: 3 months, 11 days
Re: Once again America is the Greatest Nation in the World. [Re: silversoul7]
    #1448749 - 04/11/03 02:19 AM (21 years, 11 days ago)

Im defining freedom in my own way. All terms are vague to some degree arent they?


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Always Smi2le

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