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InvisibleSuperD
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Re: 1 Dead, 7 Hospitalized in Konawa, OK. 2C-E suspected. [Re: Altered States]
    #14442108 - 05/12/11 08:31 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

You need to learn that the dosage of a chemical is what makes it safe or a poison.  Natural or synthetic has nothing to do with it.


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Offlinedestructo_low
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Re: 1 Dead, 7 Hospitalized in Konawa, OK. 2C-E suspected. [Re: Altered States]
    #14442134 - 05/12/11 08:35 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Altered States said:
First off you have no idea if that drug had been properly labeled with dosage directions those kids wouldn't have OD or not. How many times have you taken something against the federally labeled directions to get a fuller experience. The stuff is FUCKING POISON!!! end of story!! If there's a possibility that you can die a horrible agonizing death from a man made psychedelic drug common scence tells me there's something wrong with it, and if I want to stay alive and healthy I probably shouldn't mess with it, federally regulated dosage label or not!! Stick to the naturals,

Quote:

destructo_low said:
Prohibition is the main reason for these drugs not having regulations and advice on responsible use. Just because a few people have died from 2C-E doesn't make it dangerous. The result of prohibition is they received incorrect information or information not accurately conveyed about the appropriate dosage. Had they bought the drug from a gas station in a labeled package with the advice on dosage and responsible use, no one would have became sick that evening. You can die from drinking too much water, but that doesn't make water dangerous.







So I assume you're going to go empty your medicine cabinet and only consume food and water the rest of your life, correct? You have to abandon professional medical help as well, because that has risks also.

Quote:

Altered States said:
Quote:

destructo_low said:
Quote:

ash057 said:
seizures and screaming,, not the way I would want to out




QFT. I feel so sorry for those kids. Especially Andrew, because that was his girlfriend that died, and he is still in critical condition apparently. That is something that will haunt him the remainder of his life. The only thing I could do in that situation is to take a (correct) dose of 2C-E at some point in the future to prove the drug hasn't defeated me.



That makes a whole lot of fucking sense!!! If he is able to even put two thoughts together for the rest of his life considering his brain and internal organs have been cooked like fucking eggs I highly doubt taking the drug that killed the love of life and turned him into a fucking piece of broccoli will be to high on his to do list!! GEEZ!!!!  Oh he's got to conquer the drug bra, like totally!! what the fuck, are you serious guy!!




Yes, I am serious, or I wouldn't have posted it. I didn't say he should. I said it's what I would do. If I have a bad experience on a drug, and I know it was due to my own negligence, be it setting, mindset, or dosage, I will take the drug again at a later date and correct my mistakes to prove that the drug isn't the problem.

Edited by destructo_low (05/12/11 08:41 PM)

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OfflineRemix
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Re: 1 Dead, 7 Hospitalized in Konawa, OK. 2C-E suspected. [Re: Altered States]
    #14442139 - 05/12/11 08:36 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Altered States said:
First off you have no idea if that drug had been properly labeled with dosage directions those kids wouldn't have OD or not.




If improper dose directions were on a drug legally sold in stores you'd bet that the first person to OD would give way to a serious lawsuit and the problem would be rectified.

Quote:

Altered States said:
The stuff is FUCKING POISON!!! end of story!! If there's a possibility that you can die a horrible agonizing death from a man made psychedelic drug common scence tells me there's something wrong with it




There's nothing wrong with most phenethylamines and RC's in general. I can OD on mescaline, a naturally available hallucinogen, if I wanted but that doesn't make it a poison. Just because you can OD on a drug by taking higher doses than anyone in their right mind would recommend doesn't make it a poison. Currently I can go out, buy booze, and OD on it like it's nobody's business but because it's use is accepted by general culture and discussion is, largely, out in the open most people have an idea of what healthy use of this substance entails. The same would go for most, if not, all drugs if there use weren't driven into the underground.

So long as these RCs are in a black market or gray areas of the law there is absolutely no obligation for these companies to give dosage advise and that, alone, is more problematic than the substance itself. Actually, it's counterintuitive for companies to do so because if they suggest that people might consume these substances they're running the risk of getting involved with the law.


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InvisibleAltered States
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Re: 1 Dead, 7 Hospitalized in Konawa, OK. 2C-E suspected. [Re: Remix]
    #14442506 - 05/12/11 09:49 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

There are a million different substances for a million different uses, ailments,cures and highs, some are natural some are synthetic, some have horrible side affects that have the possibility to kill you and some don't. If I have a choice between having a psychedelic experience or any experience mind you, from a substance that is natural,safe and wont fuck up my DNA and give my children gross abnormalities and possibly kill me with violent seizures, cooking brains and internal organs, and one that's not, common sense tells me to go with the natural one that hasn't been tainted by mans hands. It's as simple as that. Like I mentioned before there's nothing I can learn or experience on RC"S that I cant on natural psychedelics. And as for dieing on mescaline, it's so rare it's practically impossible to find any recorded cases to date, in fact I cant find any.I guess that's one of the reasons cultures and religions are founded on it and it's been used for thousands of years. Any who my heart goes out to those unfortunates families, friends and love ones that were lost and maimed this past week. It surely is a very sad and tragic situation.


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SUPPORT M.A.P.S. "MULTIDISCIPLINARY ASSOCATION FOR PSYCHEDELIC STUDIES"

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Edited by Altered States (05/13/11 04:13 AM)

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OfflineRemix
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Re: 1 Dead, 7 Hospitalized in Konawa, OK. 2C-E suspected. [Re: Altered States]
    #14442529 - 05/12/11 09:53 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

It's fine if you don't want to use RC's and stick with natural and safe hallucinogens/drugs.

Just don't claim they're "poison", because they're not. Most of them, such as the 2c's in question, only cause adverse effects if one takes much higher than what is recommended - like those mentioned in this article.


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Offlinelearningtofly
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Re: 1 Dead, 7 Hospitalized in Konawa, OK. 2C-E suspected. [Re: Remix]
    #14442623 - 05/12/11 10:16 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

It is a poison because it causes physical trauma.


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Offline2ndChancesRDivine
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Re: 1 Dead, 7 Hospitalized in Konawa, OK. 2C-E suspected. [Re: Altered States]
    #14442631 - 05/12/11 10:17 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Doctors used to recommend small doses of arsenic which is most definitely a poison less than a century ago for certain ailments. Almost anything can be toxic to your body in some form or another.

They say LSD is safe, but if you take it at dosages you would normally take mescaline at you might start seeing some deaths. The issue here isn't that the molecule in question is poisonous, we all know that it is, but at what range can one safely take it.

Think about datura. Datura can fucking KILL you and it is EVERYWHERE. I have a Datura weed that I pass by every day. Yet people take it to hallucinate, and over the years people have used it for shamanic purposes, suicides or even murders. This is one of natures examples of a natural "2C-E". Hallucinogen at low doses, fatal at higher ones.

These young adults used this substance based on the word of one of their peers without checking facts or asking questions. The woman who died and the man in critical care were the ones who took the solution to the party, were misinformed or misguided on how to administer the chemical, gave it to others and were the ones who also suffered the worst. The others at the party should have known better than to trust the judgment of other people with the sanctity of their bodies and used the brain the good Lord gave them to at double check or at least thoroughly question the suppliers of the chemical.

As a result of middle America's ignorant population our scene is exposed, vulnerable to the legislative whims of politicians who will never truly understand our desire to experience altered states, and we will once again be the outlaws designated as humanities disgrace.

@Altered States: are you trolling or just being very passionate?


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OfflineLightShedder
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Re: 1 Dead, 7 Hospitalized in Konawa, OK. 2C-E suspected. [Re: Remix]
    #14443143 - 05/12/11 11:57 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Remix said:

Just don't claim they're "poison", because they're not. Most of them, such as the 2c's in question, only cause adverse effects if one takes much higher than what is recommended - like those mentioned in this article.





Dont you fucking dare pretend like you know anything about RCs long-term effects.

Show me ONE legitimate study telling you ANYTHING about 2c-x or STFU.

LSD is not considered a RESEARCH chemical because tons of research has been done on it. These RCs are called such because there is NO research accomplished describing long-term LOW doses even.

Dangerous misinformation your spoutin bud.


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OfflineLightShedder
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Re: 1 Dead, 7 Hospitalized in Konawa, OK. 2C-E suspected. [Re: SuperD]
    #14443164 - 05/13/11 12:02 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

SuperD said:
You need to learn that the dosage of a chemical is what makes it safe or a poison.  Natural or synthetic has nothing to do with it.




Goddamnit! You people keep citing dosage???

Any drug with an ld50 possible 6 times that of an average dose is not a drug to be defended and regarded as safe!!!!

Plus, there is NOOOOOOOOO research to show that even low doses of these chemicals aren't toxic!!!!!!! Jesus fucking Christ!!!! Learn the facts!!!

It's POSSIBLE that taking 20mg of 2c-X 3 times in your life won't cause any long-term damage. BUT YOU DON'T KNOW THIS so stop fucking telling people it's true.  Have you even talked to o e person who ate 2c-X 40 years ago and can verify that they were unaffected in the long-run??

NOOO

You people are crazy.


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OfflineRemix
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Re: 1 Dead, 7 Hospitalized in Konawa, OK. 2C-E suspected. [Re: LightShedder]
    #14443199 - 05/13/11 12:10 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Chill out man. 
Nobody is saying it's perfectly safe to do these drugs.
I would say no drug is "safe", either with regards to toxicity or the fact that when you take a drug, especially a hallucinogen/psychedelic, you're not necessarily in the most adaptive frame of mind.

I'm not spreading any real misinformation, either. No drug is inherently a poison just because it CAN kill you at irresponsible doses. Alcohol has the potential to be poisonous but I'll defend it's use to the end because most people can use it responsibly and have a decent time.

Not-to-mention, people have been taking these 2c's since Shulgin synthesized them and I have yet to hear anybody, including Shulgin, talking about long term side-effects unless they went on huge binges and abused the hell out of them.


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OfflineLightShedder
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Re: 1 Dead, 7 Hospitalized in Konawa, OK. 2C-E suspected. [Re: Remix]
    #14443226 - 05/13/11 12:15 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

IrrespOnsible doses?

Conservatively, you would be in great danger if you consumed 10 times the average dose of 2c-e. That's comparable to heroin which everyone agrees is dangerous because of the thin margin between the active dose and the ld50. Nobody tries to belittle the danger or risk associated with heroin abuse by arguing "dude just take a responsible dose and you'll be fine".

Especially if it's a drug with NO human research. Excuse my emotion but people are not giving proper advice about 2c-e.


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OfflineRemix
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Re: 1 Dead, 7 Hospitalized in Konawa, OK. 2C-E suspected. [Re: LightShedder]
    #14443314 - 05/13/11 12:38 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

LightShedder said:
Nobody tries to belittle the danger or risk associated with heroin abuse by arguing "dude just take a responsible dose and you'll be fine".




I would. :shrug:
See, you're doing what most people who support prohibition do. You're not making a distinction between "use" and "abuse".
Opiates, including heroin, aren't a problem at all if you use them sparingly or in the context of serious pain-killing where necessary. The main problem with heroin, and most of the "more-toxic" drugs, is their addictive potential and the fact that most OD's are traceable to either A) the person got a batch stronger than they expected and dosed ignorant of this or B) they had such a high tolerance that they NEEDED to take dangerous amounts of the drug just to get their fix.

The 2c's don't have the same addictive potential as opiates and so it's FAR less likely that people will OD simply because they have such a high tolerance to them. In the case mentioned in this article people weren't aware of the kinds of doses they were getting and that's why they had complications.

Also, mind you, a lot of people have taken these 2c's in question for the past 20-30 years and I haven't really heard of any major long-term side-effects from anybody. This is what you could call "human research" to a degree. Granted, it's not particularly scientific or "peer reviewed" but, then again, such research isn't really sanctioned by our culture or society... so, really, it's up to the hair-brained, psycho-Magellans to do the "illegitimate research" until people realize that it's better to have these substances studied and discussed out in the open rather than driven into the questionable underground.


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Edited by Remix (05/13/11 12:41 AM)

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OfflineLightShedder
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Re: 1 Dead, 7 Hospitalized in Konawa, OK. 2C-E suspected. [Re: Remix]
    #14443398 - 05/13/11 01:18 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Don't mention prohibition to me. It's people like you that will ensure it's continuation.

Apparently you're not familiar with physiology. You see, anybody with medicinal knowledge wouldn't belittle the danger of a drug with an active dose 10%+ that of the lethal dose.

I think heroin and 2c-e should be legal.

But you have no data to tell people you know 2c-e, even in low "responsible" doses, isn't detrimental to your health in the long run. Not to mention the active dose/ld50-a concept your obviously oblivious to.


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OfflineLightShedder
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Re: 1 Dead, 7 Hospitalized in Konawa, OK. 2C-E suspected. [Re: LightShedder]
    #14443419 - 05/13/11 01:26 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

20-30 years anecdotal experience, in the obvious survivors only, doesn't mean much. The fact that there is such a thin margin between active dose/ld50 lends towards possible low-dose toxicity. Maybe not.

It should be left at this

2c-e may/may not have an adverse effect on health.

But it does have a low ld50 when compared to the active dose, compared to psilocybin/LSD/thc.

That's all anyone can claim to know.


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OfflineRemix
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Re: 1 Dead, 7 Hospitalized in Konawa, OK. 2C-E suspected. [Re: LightShedder]
    #14443437 - 05/13/11 01:33 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

I'm not belittling the danger of anything. All I said was that something isn't inherently a poison because you can OD on it.

I never said these substances were perfectly safe. I said they can be used responsibly. There's a difference.

Like I said, no drug is safe IMO. There's a danger associated with ANY form of drug use, even the most physiologically benign ones.

But it is possible to use any drug responsibly, even the "dangerous" ones, and this is by being aware of what the safe dosages are. I don't see where I said that these concepts weren't important at any point.

There are people who have even used EXTREMELY dangerous and toxic drugs like the tropane alkaloids of Datura and Jimsonweed with a level of responsibility. This doesn't mean it's a safe drug by any means, it just means that the individual can control an amount of factors that ensures they won't OD or put themselves in a horribly compromising situation. 

Responsibly using a drug does NOT mean that the drug is safe. I don't see how you can confuse the two concepts.


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Edited by Remix (05/13/11 01:51 AM)

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Re: 1 Dead, 7 Hospitalized in Konawa, OK. 2C-E suspected. [Re: LightShedder]
    #14443450 - 05/13/11 01:41 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

What is the LD50 of 2c-e? I surely can't find it.

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OfflineLightShedder
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Re: 1 Dead, 7 Hospitalized in Konawa, OK. 2C-E suspected. [Re: enthiangenic]
    #14443459 - 05/13/11 01:46 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Does that make you feel safe ingesting 200mg of it?


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OfflineRemix
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Re: 1 Dead, 7 Hospitalized in Konawa, OK. 2C-E suspected. [Re: LightShedder]
    #14443468 - 05/13/11 01:49 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Why would you take 200mg when it's more than active in the 5-30mg range?


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OfflineLightShedder
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Re: 1 Dead, 7 Hospitalized in Konawa, OK. 2C-E suspected. [Re: Remix]
    #14443472 - 05/13/11 01:50 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Remix said:
I'm not belittling the danger of anything. All I said was that something isn't inherently a poison because you can OD on it.

I never said these substances were perfectly safe. I said they can be used responsibly. There's a difference.

Like I said, no drug is safe IMO. There's a danger associated with ANY form of drug use, even the most physiologically benign ones.

But it is possible to use any drug responsibly, even the "dangerous" ones, and this is by knowing what the safe dosages are. I don't see where I said that these concepts weren't important at any point.

There are people who have even used EXTREMELY dangerous and toxic drugs like the tropane alkaloids of Datura and Jimsonweed with a level of responsibility. This doesn't mean it's a safe drug by any means, it just means that the individual can control an amount of factors that ensures they won't OD or put themselves in a horribly compromising situation. 

Responsibly using a drug does NOT mean that the drug is safe. I don't see how you can confuse the two concepts.




I like this version better than

Quote:

Remix said:
It's fine if you don't want to use RC's and stick with natural and safe hallucinogens/drugs.

Just don't claim they're "poison", because they're not. Most of them, such as the 2c's in question, only cause adverse effects if one takes much higher than what is recommended - like those mentioned in this article.




Considering the lack of proof that these drugs don't have adverse effects from occasional low-dose use.


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OfflineLightShedder
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Re: 1 Dead, 7 Hospitalized in Konawa, OK. 2C-E suspected. [Re: Remix]
    #14443474 - 05/13/11 01:51 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Remix said:
Why would you take 200mg when it's more than active in the 5-30mg range?




I surely wouldn't. I'm just estimating that to be around the ld50.


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