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InvisibleMoonshoe
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The problem with eating meat
    #14441744 - 05/12/11 07:28 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

One of the most direct and devastating forms of environmentally destructive consumption by the rich is found in the practice of meat eating. As societies become more affluent, the rate at which they consume meat tends to increase sharply. Unfortunately, eating meat is generally an environmentally destructive practice, because “meat is a roundabout and energy inefficient way to get nutrients to the human population” .

The sobering fact is that to produce “one kilo of edible meat product” requires the use of “around thirteen kilograms of feed grains” resulting in a huge burden on land use. This enormous use of land results in biodiversity loss and other “environmental losses associated with the industrial production of feed grains and livestock” such as eutrophication and the resulting destruction of marine life.

In essence, the diet-related ecological footprint of a meat eater is probably as much as thirteen times higher than that of a vegan or vegetarian, and each kilo of meat eaten by those wealthy enough to afford it could have provided food for thirteen hungry humans instead.


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Everything I post is fiction.


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Offlinesk8fast
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Re: The problem with eating meat [Re: Moonshoe]
    #14441777 - 05/12/11 07:35 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

There are essential amino acids found in meat that the human body cannot produce. Humans are carnivores.


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OfflineZenXi6
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Re: The problem with eating meat [Re: Moonshoe]
    #14441789 - 05/12/11 07:36 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

I want to add quickly here - that vegetarianism or veganism is not necessarily the answer.

These are industrial, agricultural and distribution problems.

Homo-Sapiens are omnivores. 

We are allowed to eat meat, but it should be produced from an ethical source.  Factory farming does nothing good for anyone.  It also shouldn't be eaten in the quantities it is, but then, nor should out of season fruits and vegetables really be eaten... the distribution and growth is usually costly and environmentally detrimental.


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InvisibleMoonshoe
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Re: The problem with eating meat [Re: sk8fast]
    #14441790 - 05/12/11 07:37 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

"There are essential amino acids found in meat that the human body cannot produce. Humans are carnivores. "

There is nothing in meat, nutritionally speaking, that cannot be obtained from non-meat sources, including essential amino acids.

Human beings are not carnivores. If anything, we are omnivores. However, eating meat remains a choice, not a necessity, and it is an ecologically unsound choice at that, except in rare situations where (usually indigenous) groups rely on traditional hunting methods.

For most of us in the city, eating meat is a luxury, not a necessity.


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Offlinescreenrocker
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Re: The problem with eating meat [Re: sk8fast]
    #14441795 - 05/12/11 07:38 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

sk8fast said:
There are essential amino acids found in meat that the human body cannot produce.




That is true, but they can all be found in plants as well.


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Offlineargg
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Re: The problem with eating meat [Re: screenrocker] * 3
    #14441820 - 05/12/11 07:41 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

well time to start eating vegans.


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OfflineZenXi6
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Re: The problem with eating meat [Re: screenrocker]
    #14441822 - 05/12/11 07:41 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Homo-Sapiens.  Neither Carnivore nor Vegetarian.  We are Omnivorous.


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Offlinestranger_danger
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Re: The problem with eating meat [Re: argg] * 1
    #14441829 - 05/12/11 07:42 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

argg said:
well time to start eating vegans.




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InvisiblePoid
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Re: The problem with eating meat [Re: Moonshoe]
    #14441847 - 05/12/11 07:44 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Moonshoe said:
...eating meat is a luxury, not a necessity.


So what?


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Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.


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Offlinescreenrocker
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Re: The problem with eating meat [Re: Poid] * 1
    #14441855 - 05/12/11 07:47 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Did you happen to catch the rest of his post? Try paying special attention to the *context* that comment was made in, so as to properly understand it.


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Offline4896744
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Re: The problem with eating meat [Re: Poid]
    #14441879 - 05/12/11 07:51 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Poid said:
Quote:

Moonshoe said:
...eating meat is a luxury, not a necessity.


So what?




I wonder how he justifies using the internet to himself.


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InvisiblePoid
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Re: The problem with eating meat [Re: 4896744]
    #14441892 - 05/12/11 07:53 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

screenrocker said:
Did you happen to catch the rest of his post? Try paying special attention to the *context* that comment was made in, so as to properly understand it.


He said "it is an ecologically unsound choice"..a lot of things that benefit us are ecologically unsound, but we still maintain those things regardless of their unsoundness because the pros outweigh the cons.


Quote:

iThink said:
Quote:

Poid said:
Quote:

Moonshoe said:
...eating meat is a luxury, not a necessity.


So what?




I wonder how he justifies using the internet to himself.


Yeah, I was gonna tell him about that after his next response. :lol:


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Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.


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InvisibleMoonshoe
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Re: The problem with eating meat [Re: 4896744]
    #14441929 - 05/12/11 07:59 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Is using the internet equivalent to eating meat?

If so, how ?


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InvisiblePoid
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Re: The problem with eating meat [Re: Moonshoe]
    #14441948 - 05/12/11 08:02 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

They're both luxuries.

Would you mind answering my question?

Quote:

Poid said:
Quote:

Moonshoe said:
...eating meat is a luxury, not a necessity.


So what?




--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.


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Offline4896744
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Re: The problem with eating meat [Re: Moonshoe]
    #14441953 - 05/12/11 08:03 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Moonshoe said:
Is using the internet equivalent to eating meat?

If so, how ?




I never said it was, you did. You argument for not eating meat is that it is bad for the environment and only a luxury. The internet pollutes the atmosphere with all of the electricity it uses, and last time i checked, it was a "luxury".


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Offlinebroken
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Re: The problem with eating meat [Re: 4896744]
    #14441963 - 05/12/11 08:04 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

i'm poor as fuck and eat meat. i kill most of it myself. mostly fish.


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Offline4896744
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Re: The problem with eating meat [Re: broken]
    #14441975 - 05/12/11 08:06 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

closed veil said:
i'm poor as fuck and eat meat. i kill most of it myself. mostly fish.




I wouldn't disagree that eating meat isn't always a luxury.


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Invisiblemushiepussy
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Re: The problem with eating meat [Re: 4896744]
    #14442544 - 05/12/11 09:57 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

I say whatever minor damage grain fields are doing is worth it, America is already fucked environmentally anyways from all the other shit we do. If you think a couple fish swimming through non-lethal fertilizer is bad, you'll probably cry thinking about the catastrophic spill in the Gulf.

And sorry, I'd rather have a pound of meat than 13lbs of grain any day.


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OfflineNetDiver
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Re: The problem with eating meat [Re: argg]
    #14443574 - 05/13/11 02:37 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

I abstain from meat partially due to the effect on the environment, but mostly because I don't feel like it's worth inflicting pain on some other creature just so I can enjoy a tasty meal. :shrug:


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InvisibleMoonshoe
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Re: The problem with eating meat [Re: 4896744]
    #14444042 - 05/13/11 07:09 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

I agree that there are similarities between eating meat and using the internet. Both are luxuries, and both impact on the environment to some extent.

There are also important differences. Eating meat directly causes the suffering and death of living creatures.
Using the internet does not.

Also, eating meat is an unnecessary way to achieve a certain end (getting nutrients) and a better alternative (vegetarianism) exists.

Using the internet is the only way I know of to participate in a global community of information exchange, and I am not aware of any more eco-friendly option that would allow me to do that.


As for how I justify using the internet, I simply don't see it as a bad or negative thing, so justifying it is not something I worry about.

And anyone who hunts or fishes their own meat, in my opinnion, is exempt from any ecological blame, as eating locally and naturally by hunting or fishing yourself is environmentally friendly in that it reduces transportation and thus carbon emissions, and it is ethically valid in that you can ensure that the animal is slaughtered humanely and not mistreated grotesquely as with factory farmed meat.


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OfflinexFrockx
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Re: The problem with eating meat [Re: Moonshoe]
    #14444085 - 05/13/11 07:31 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

"The sobering fact is that to produce “one kilo of edible meat product” requires the use of “around thirteen kilograms of feed grains” resulting in a huge burden on land use."

You can eat the thirteen kilos of feed grains, I'll take the 2.2lbs of steak.

"However, eating meat remains a choice, not a necessity, and it is an ecologically unsound choice at that, except in rare situations where (usually indigenous) groups rely on traditional hunting methods."

Who are you to say that it is an unsound choice for humans to destroy the environment? I've got some news for you:

Quote:

We’re so self-important. So self-important. Everybody’s going to save something now. “Save the trees, save the bees, save the whales, save those snails.” And the greatest arrogance of all: save the planet. What? Are these fucking people kidding me? Save the planet, we don’t even know how to take care of ourselves yet. We haven’t learned how to care for one another, we’re gonna save the fucking planet?

I’m getting tired of that shit. Tired of that shit. I’m tired of fucking Earth Day, I’m tired of these self-righteous environmentalists, these white, bourgeois liberals who think the only thing wrong with this country is there aren’t enough bicycle paths. People trying to make the world save for their Volvos. Besides, environmentalists don’t give a shit about the planet. They don’t care about the planet. Not in the abstract they don’t. Not in the abstract they don’t. You know what they’re interested in? A clean place to live. Their own habitat. They’re worried that some day in the future, they might be personally inconvenienced. Narrow, unenlightened self-interest doesn’t impress me.

Besides, there is nothing wrong with the planet. Nothing wrong with the planet. The planet is fine. The PEOPLE are fucked. Difference. Difference. The planet is fine. Compared to the people, the planet is doing great. Been here four and a half billion years. Did you ever think about the arithmetic? The planet has been here four and a half billion years. We’ve been here, what, a hundred thousand? Maybe two hundred thousand? And we’ve only been engaged in heavy industry for a little over two hundred years. Two hundred years versus four and a half billion. And we have the CONCEIT to think that somehow we’re a threat? That somehow we’re gonna put in jeopardy this beautiful little blue-green ball that’s just a-floatin’ around the sun?

The planet has been through a lot worse than us. Been through all kinds of things worse than us. Been through earthquakes, volcanoes, plate tectonics, continental drift, solar flares, sun spots, magnetic storms, the magnetic reversal of the poles…hundreds of thousands of years of bombardment by comets and asteroids and meteors, worlwide floods, tidal waves, worldwide fires, erosion, cosmic rays, recurring ice ages…And we think some plastic bags, and some aluminum cans are going to make a difference? The planet…the planet…the planet isn’t going anywhere. WE ARE!

We’re going away. Pack your shit, folks. We’re going away. And we won’t leave much of a trace, either. Thank God for that. Maybe a little styrofoam. Maybe. A little styrofoam. The planet’ll be here and we’ll be long gone. Just another failed mutation. Just another closed-end biological mistake. An evolutionary cul-de-sac. The planet’ll shake us off like a bad case of fleas. A surface nuisance.

You wanna know how the planet’s doing? Ask those people at Pompeii, who are frozen into position from volcanic ash, how the planet’s doing. You wanna know if the planet’s all right, ask those people in Mexico City or Armenia or a hundred other places buried under thousands of tons of earthquake rubble, if they feel like a threat to the planet this week. Or how about those people in Kilowaia, Hawaii, who built their homes right next to an active volcano, and then wonder why they have lava in the living room.

The planet will be here for a long, long, LONG time after we’re gone, and it will heal itself, it will cleanse itself, ’cause that’s what it does. It’s a self-correcting system. The air and the water will recover, the earth will be renewed, and if it’s true that plastic is not degradable, well, the planet will simply incorporate plastic into a new pardigm: the earth plus plastic. The earth doesn’t share our prejudice towards plastic. Plastic came out of the earth. The earth probably sees plastic as just another one of its children. Could be the only reason the earth allowed us to be spawned from it in the first place. It wanted plastic for itself. Didn’t know how to make it. Needed us. Could be the answer to our age-old egocentric philosophical question, “Why are we here?” Plastic…asshole.

So, the plastic is here, our job is done, we can be phased out now. And I think that’s begun. Don’t you think that’s already started? I think, to be fair, the planet sees us as a mild threat. Something to be dealt with. And the planet can defend itself in an organized, collective way, the way a beehive or an ant colony can. A collective defense mechanism. The planet will think of something. What would you do if you were the planet? How would you defend yourself against this troublesome, pesky species? Let’s see… Viruses. Viruses might be good. They seem vulnerable to viruses. And, uh…viruses are tricky, always mutating and forming new strains whenever a vaccine is developed. Perhaps, this first virus could be one that compromises the immune system of these creatures. Perhaps a human immunodeficiency virus, making them vulnerable to all sorts of other diseases and infections that might come along. And maybe it could be spread sexually, making them a little reluctant to engage in the act of reproduction.

Well, that’s a poetic note. And it’s a start. And I can dream, can’t I? See I don’t worry about the little things: bees, trees, whales, snails. I think we’re part of a greater wisdom than we will ever understand. A higher order. Call it what you want. Know what I call it? The Big Electron. The Big Electron…whoooa. Whoooa. Whoooa. It doesn’t punish, it doesn’t reward, it doesn’t judge at all. It just is. And so are we. For a little while.




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Invisiblesandi
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Re: The problem with eating meat [Re: xFrockx]
    #14444132 - 05/13/11 07:48 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

I love how it only took one response for this thread to totally go off course. The whole point was that raising meat in the ecologically destructive manner we do in modern agriculture is not sustainable. That's all.

There wasn't really a problem with eating meat itself or humans needing meat. That is beside the point.

So some relevant thoughts: how do we avoid destroying the planet while providing enough meat for society? Humans can barely accept cloned vegetables with some countries banning them. They would hardly accept cloned meat if we could easily provide it for cheap, though it would knock out using up and stripping resources and creating literally tons of pollution in the form of animal wastes, fertilizers, etc. that go into factory farming.

Or perhaps we need to start realizing and caring that future generations are going to be totally fucked when we can't even support humans, let alone hordes of factory farmed animals. But oh well, that's not our concern right now, right? Well, even if it is (plenty of intelligent people know this), we can't do anything about it. Protests? Boycott meat? Yeah, right. That's going to work (not). Boycotts only work if you can actually damage sales, and there will never be enough people that can boycott it all at once for it to damage the industry.


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OfflineUnison
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Re: The problem with eating meat [Re: sandi]
    #14444147 - 05/13/11 07:53 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Until you find a way to produce food out of space rocks, there is no solution to this problem.

Life is inherently dependent on other life. You can sugar coat this by eating plants instead of animals, but when it boils down, life has to consume life. You will always live off of death.


Edited by Unison (05/13/11 07:53 AM)


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InvisibleMoonshoe
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Re: The problem with eating meat [Re: Unison]
    #14444159 - 05/13/11 07:57 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

"Life is inherently dependent on other life. You can sugar coat this by eating plants instead of animals, but when it boils down, life has to consume life. You will always live off of death."

Yes, but the whole point of this post is that when you eat meat, you live off 13x more death then when you live off of vegetables.


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OfflineUnison
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Re: The problem with eating meat [Re: Moonshoe]
    #14444169 - 05/13/11 08:02 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Moonshoe said:
Yes, but the whole point of this post is that when you eat meat, you live off 13x more death then when you live off of vegetables.



Fine. But causing 1/13 the death does not solve the problem. Eventually, we will have 13 times the population, and will run into the same dilema.

The only solution would be to artificially manufacture basic nutrients required for humans.


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Offlineargg
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Re: The problem with eating meat [Re: Unison]
    #14444403 - 05/13/11 09:08 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

I am a level 7 vegan. I do not eat anything that casts a shadow.




On a serious note I have been messing with aquaponics as a closed loop system to produce a decent amount of food for myself that is envoirnmetally sound. Large amounts of veggies can be grow with the fish poop then waste sections of the plants can be composted with worms and flies. The worms and fly larva can be fed to the fish along with extra plant materials so other then adding fish pellets to the system if I get lazy about fly/worm production it could be closed loop self cleaning with 0 water diversion if rainwater is used. I doubt 0 water use as well water would be used but water changes are only needed in an emergency in an aquaponics system.


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InvisibleMoonshoe
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Re: The problem with eating meat [Re: Unison]
    #14444440 - 05/13/11 09:21 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

"The only solution would be to artificially manufacture basic nutrients required for humans. "

I do not agree with this. Why artificially manufacture basic nutrients that are already abundant in nature?

A better solution would be for humans to shift to a vegetarian diet, then control population growth through widespread adoption of voluntary fertility reduction via condoms, birthcontrol, vasectomies etc.


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Everything I post is fiction.


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InvisibleMoonshoe
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Re: The problem with eating meat [Re: argg]
    #14444445 - 05/13/11 09:22 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

"On a serious note I have been messing with aquaponics as a closed loop system to produce a decent amount of food for myself that is envoirnmetally sound. Large amounts of veggies can be grow with the fish poop then waste sections of the plants can be composted with worms and flies. The worms and fly larva can be fed to the fish along with extra plant materials so other then adding fish pellets to the system if I get lazy about fly/worm production it could be closed loop self cleaning with 0 water diversion if rainwater is used. I doubt 0 water use as well water would be used but water changes are only needed in an emergency in an aquaponics system."

I commend you for this. This is exactly the kind of environmentally sound and creative solutions that we need, based on closed-loop principles of ecology.

:thumbup:


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OfflineUnison
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Re: The problem with eating meat [Re: Moonshoe]
    #14444581 - 05/13/11 10:01 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Moonshoe said:
I do not agree with this. Why artificially manufacture basic nutrients that are already abundant in nature?

A better solution would be for humans to shift to a vegetarian diet,




They will not always be abundant, no matter what diet you switch to.

Look. You're looking for the solution to the effect of a problem.

Quote:

Moonshoe said:
then control population growth through widespread adoption of voluntary fertility reduction via condoms, birthcontrol, vasectomies etc.



There. The root of the problem is overpopulation. The problem is NOT the fact that we eat meat.

We have outgrown Earth. Plain and simple.


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OfflineUnison
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Re: The problem with eating meat [Re: Moonshoe]
    #14444586 - 05/13/11 10:02 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Moonshoe said:I commend you for this. This is exactly the kind of environmentally sound and creative solutions that we need, based on closed-loop principles of ecology.

:thumbup:



That can never work large scale, long term. No matter how ideal it is to you.

Earth is an example of that.


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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: The problem with eating meat [Re: Moonshoe]
    #14444709 - 05/13/11 10:27 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

The sobering fact is that to produce “one kilo of edible meat product” requires the use of “around thirteen kilograms of feed grains”




So if we all ate nothing but grains, we could have 13 times as many people on the planet or about 91 billion people. That should lessen the impact.

Of course, I am only semi-joking, but the principle remains the same. Become more proficient = more mouths to feed. Not sure why you keep missing this over and over again.


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InvisibleMoonshoe
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Re: The problem with eating meat [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #14444844 - 05/13/11 10:49 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

"become more proficient = more mouths to feed. Not sure why you keep missing this over and over again. "

Unless we implement widespread fertility reduction programs, as I have already indicated is necessary.


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OfflineUnison
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Re: The problem with eating meat [Re: Moonshoe]
    #14444864 - 05/13/11 10:52 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Moonshoe said:
"become more proficient = more mouths to feed. Not sure why you keep missing this over and over again. "

Unless we implement widespread fertility reduction programs, as I have already indicated is necessary.



Sounds great.

So eating meat is not the problem.


Edited by Unison (05/13/11 10:52 AM)


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Offlinesmurf_master
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Re: The problem with eating meat [Re: Unison] * 1
    #14444869 - 05/13/11 10:54 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

If you take away my steaks I will kill you


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Re: The problem with eating meat [Re: Unison]
    #14444906 - 05/13/11 11:02 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

In order to respond to the environmental crisis we will need to simultaneously reduce consumption (e.g. by not eating meat) and population (fertility reduction programs).

Both aspects are urgently needed.


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Re: The problem with eating meat [Re: Moonshoe]
    #14444943 - 05/13/11 11:11 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Or we could just slow reproduction.


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Re: The problem with eating meat [Re: Moonshoe]
    #14444982 - 05/13/11 11:17 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

How about you stop eating not only meat, but anything at all. You'll reduce consumption more that way. While you're at it, get yourself sterilized, and don't waste those testicles!


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Re: The problem with eating meat [Re: Unison]
    #14444985 - 05/13/11 11:17 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

People should be forced to take a variety of IQ/EQ/psychological tests to and if you fail you can't have kids. That way we weed out of incompetent parents.


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Re: The problem with eating meat [Re: smurf_master]
    #14444991 - 05/13/11 11:19 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

"That way we weed out of incompetent parents. "

Is it a grammar test?


How about we sterilize anyone who wants to test people to sterilize them?


Edited by xFrockx (05/13/11 11:20 AM)


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Re: The problem with eating meat [Re: Moonshoe]
    #14444997 - 05/13/11 11:19 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Moonshoe said:And anyone who hunts or fishes their own meat, in my opinnion, is exempt from any ecological blame, as eating locally and naturally by hunting or fishing yourself is environmentally friendly in that it reduces transportation and thus carbon emissions, and it is ethically valid in that you can ensure that the animal is slaughtered humanely and not mistreated grotesquely as with factory farmed meat.




What about purchasing food stuffs direct from local growers or farmers? I've got a link to a rad Meat Community supported agriculture group for anyone who lives in the San Francisco Bay Area, message me if anyone's interested!

Anyway, I agree with people who are saying that not eating meat really isn't the solution, because the crops that vegetarians may depend on are grown in enormous monocultures that will destroy the diversity of our land if our over-the-top population all decided to go veggie. We live in a pretty meat-obsessed culture, for sure, so i see how being vegetarian could be a way of making up for the ridiculous population who uses meat as 70% of their diet. Meat does NOT have to take up that enormous of a portion of our meals.

What's a far more important solution and still holds up when you apply it to everyone on the planet, i think is using permaculture techniques, growing our own food, and eating as diverse a diet as possible. Meat CAN be sustainable, so we have to stop buying meat from just any old source, and start supporting farms and livestock raisers who are striving to use those sustainable organic techniques, and are esteemed enough to not sell-out once they get enough financial support to catch the attention of big meat companies who will want to buy them out.

Everyone who hasn't read michael pollen, DO IT.


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Re: The problem with eating meat [Re: sandi]
    #14445022 - 05/13/11 11:24 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

sandi said:Protests? Boycott meat? Yeah, right. That's going to work (not). Boycotts only work if you can actually damage sales, and there will never be enough people that can boycott it all at once for it to damage the industry.




Find people in your community who care about this, find an organic farm, meet with the farmers and set up a way to get sustainable, organic, local meat direct. Then you take your support away from the shitty meat in grocery stores thereby reducing their profit. If enough people do this, they eventually start losing their profit. If everyone does this they go out of business. plop. I think looking at the end-result is a cop-out considering how overpopulated we are. Of course those numbers are gonna tell you trying is pointless. The point is to do it for yourself, show others that it works. You can't make other people have true freedom until you have it yourself


Edited by helix (05/13/11 11:26 AM)


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Re: The problem with eating meat [Re: helix]
    #14445032 - 05/13/11 11:26 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

:thumbup:

Absolutely. Developing sustainable , locally based permacultures is the key to ecological food production.

But in the meantime, or in the absence of those options, vegetarianism remains the best option for most.


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Re: The problem with eating meat [Re: helix]
    #14445038 - 05/13/11 11:27 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

aronf13 said:
What's a far more important solution and still holds up when you apply it to everyone on the planet, i think is using permaculture techniques, growing our own food, and eating as diverse a diet as possible. Meat CAN be sustainable, so we have to stop buying meat from just any old source, and start supporting farms and livestock raisers who are striving to use those sustainable organic techniques, and are esteemed enough to not sell-out once they get enough financial support to catch the attention of big meat companies who will want to buy them out.



Why wont you people understand? Anything you do to sustain the species, WILL CAUSE THE SAME PROBLEM AGAIN in the future, once the population catches up (and it will).

There are two solutions. Slow reproduction, or artificially produce nutrients. Them's the dice.


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Re: The problem with eating meat [Re: Unison]
    #14445132 - 05/13/11 11:46 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Unison said:
Quote:

aronf13 said:
What's a far more important solution and still holds up when you apply it to everyone on the planet, i think is using permaculture techniques, growing our own food, and eating as diverse a diet as possible. Meat CAN be sustainable, so we have to stop buying meat from just any old source, and start supporting farms and livestock raisers who are striving to use those sustainable organic techniques, and are esteemed enough to not sell-out once they get enough financial support to catch the attention of big meat companies who will want to buy them out.



Why wont you people understand? Anything you do to sustain the species, WILL CAUSE THE SAME PROBLEM AGAIN in the future, once the population catches up (and it will).

There are two solutions. Slow reproduction, or artificially produce nutrients. Them's the dice.




I think we need population control as WELL as using sustainable methods of production. we're already producing 40% over what's sustainable and population control is gonna take a while to have effect, unless it includes systematically and rapidly getting RID of people :/

Plus, it's straying from the topic, but there are other problems besides ecological destruction that come out of using these mass-produced, industrialized, commodified structures to get our food


Edited by helix (05/13/11 11:47 AM)


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Re: The problem with eating meat [Re: Moonshoe]
    #14445214 - 05/13/11 12:12 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Moonshoe said:
And anyone who hunts or fishes their own meat, in my opinnion, is exempt from any ecological blame...


Even those who hunt/fish without a hunting/fishing license?


Quote:

Moonshoe said:
...and it is ethically valid in that you can ensure that the animal is slaughtered humanely and not mistreated grotesquely as with factory farmed meat.


What evidence do you have that shows that animals are slaughtered inhumanely in factories?


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Re: The problem with eating meat [Re: Poid]
    #14445241 - 05/13/11 12:19 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

"What evidence do you have that shows that animals are slaughtered inhumanely in factories? "

Your joking right?

http://www.meat.org/


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Re: The problem with eating meat [Re: Moonshoe]
    #14445267 - 05/13/11 12:24 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

:andyistic:


Yeah, I don't want to be given a link to some anti-meat propaganda website..give me a link to an unbiased source, and quote the relevant section(s).


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fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.


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Re: The problem with eating meat [Re: Poid]
    #14445280 - 05/13/11 12:27 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

While you're at it, I'd appreciate it if you took the time to formulate an answer to my other question:

Quote:

Poid said:
Quote:

Moonshoe said:
And anyone who hunts or fishes their own meat, in my opinnion, is exempt from any ecological blame...


Even those who hunt/fish without a hunting/fishing license?




--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.


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Re: The problem with eating meat [Re: Poid]
    #14445294 - 05/13/11 12:32 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Well, that video has actual footage of animals being abused in factories. So if you can't believe that, I don't see what some article is going to prove to you. Plus its not my job to do your research for you. You can use google as well as I can my friend.

As for the hunting/fishing licence thing, As far as Im concerned if you are hunting or fishing your own food, locally and humanely, for the purposes of survival, I don't see any difference if you have a licence or not.


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Re: The problem with eating meat [Re: Moonshoe]
    #14445328 - 05/13/11 12:38 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Moonshoe said:
Well, that video has actual footage of animals being abused in factories.


How old is the footage? What country was it filmed in? Were the slaughterers employing legal practices?


Quote:

Moonshoe said:
So if you can't believe that, I don't see what some article is going to prove to you.


An article will give me a date, and other relevant information.


Quote:

Moonshoe said:
Plus its not my job to do your research for you.


This is a debate forum..the burden of proof is on you, it's expected that you support your claim with evidence.


Quote:

Moonshoe said:
As for the hunting/fishing licence thing, As far as Im concerned if you are hunting or fishing your own food, locally and humanely, for the purposes of survival, I don't see any difference if you have a licence or not.


Really? Do you not understand the purpose of hunting/fishing licences? Hunting/fishing laws are there to control the game/fish population..if a bunch of people went hunting and fishing without licenses, they would drastically harm the ecosystem.


Shows how environmentally aware you are. :lol:


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.


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Re: The problem with eating meat [Re: Poid]
    #14445370 - 05/13/11 12:49 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

"This is a debate forum..the burden of proof is on you, it's expected that you support your claim with evidence."

From the American Humane Society Website

http://www.humanesociety.org/issues/campaigns/factory_farming/

"Nearly all animals killed for food in the U.S. are chickens and turkeys—more than nine billion each year. They're shackled upside down, paralyzed by electrified water and dragged over mechanical throat-cutting blades ... all while conscious. Millions of birds each year miss the blades and drown in tanks of scalding water."

"Factory farms cram egg-laying hens into cages so tiny they can't even spread their wings. Breeding pigs and veal calves are stuffed into cramped individual cages barely larger than their bodies. They can’t walk or turn around"

"Foie gras (French for “fatty liver”) is the product of extreme animal cruelty. Factory farms produce it by force feeding ducks so much that their livers become diseased and enlarged. This causes a tremendous amount of suffering and can make it difficult for the birds to walk and breathe normally."

As for the licence thing, ok, I change my views, don't go fishing without a licence. I am a vegetarian. I don't think  anyone should eat meat period, except indigenous tribes who depend on it. :shrug:


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Re: The problem with eating meat [Re: Moonshoe]
    #14445394 - 05/13/11 12:56 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

so now your argument is we should't eat meat because of the cruel way the animals die. :rolleyes:

plants have to die too you know. and if you eat yeast flacks, those are still alive when you eat them!

things die so other live. it's the way of the world.


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Re: The problem with eating meat [Re: Moonshoe]
    #14445412 - 05/13/11 12:59 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

That's another biased source, I asked for an unbiased source. It doesn't explain, in detail, which companies/corporations are responsible for such treatment of animals, and where such treatment is occurring (is it all occurring in the USA?). Not all companies/corporations who sell meat are responsible for such treatment of animals, and different slaughterhouses have different slaughtering practices.


I am a vegetarian. I don't think  anyone should eat meat period, except indigenous tribes who depend on it.

Why do you care what other people do? What if I owned a farm and raised my own cattle..would you think that I shouldn't eat my own farm-raised beef? :what:


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.


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Re: The problem with eating meat [Re: broken]
    #14445421 - 05/13/11 01:03 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

"so now your argument is we should't eat meat because of the cruel way the animals die"

I think that eating an animal that died in cruel ways is unethical, and yes, I think that is a damn good reason not to eat meat, if you have  any compassion.

"plants have to die too you know. and if you eat yeast flacks, those are still alive when you eat them"

Yes, but it seems evident they dont have the same capacity for emotional and physical suffering as animals, and, as I already pointed out, when you eat animal meat you are also indirectly eating a large quantity of plants needed to raise that animal. So when you eat meat, you are not sparing plants, but when you eat plants, you ARE sparing animals.


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Re: The problem with eating meat [Re: broken]
    #14445423 - 05/13/11 01:03 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

This thread is filled with so much bullshit.

Yes, we have to eat some kind of living thing to survive. That does not make eating plants in any way equivalent to eating animals. :facepalm: Plants do not have nervous systems, so we have every reason to believe that they cannot feel pain. 99.9% of animals, on the other hand, most certainly can.

Furthermore, we can get all the nutrients we need by being vegetarian. Eating meat is a choice, it is not necessary for survival.


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Re: The problem with eating meat [Re: Poid]
    #14445439 - 05/13/11 01:06 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

"That's another biased source, I asked for an unbiased source."

In epistemological terms, there is no such thing as a truly unbiased source. Everyone comes at things from their own perspective, and that is all a "bias" is.


"It doesn't explain, in detail, which companies/corporations are responsible for such treatment of animals, and where such treatment is occurring (is it all occurring in the USA?). Not all companies/corporations who sell meat are responsible for such treatment of animals, and different slaughterhouses have different slaughtering practices."

At this point you are asking me to write you a research report. I get paid to do that for other people, and if you start paying me I might consider doing it for you. Until then, you can do some reading for yourself. I am not your employee.

I have given you two sources to validate my claims, and if they dont satisy you that is your problem, not mine.



"Why do you care what other people do? What if I owned a farm and raised my own cattle..would you think that I shouldn't eat my own farm-raised beef?"

Ethically speaking, I don't think anyone should unnecessarily kill animals when they can as easily subsist on plants. I don't expect everyone to agree, but I don't apologize for my viewpoints either.


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Edited by Moonshoe (05/13/11 01:11 PM)


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Re: The problem with eating meat [Re: NetDiver]
    #14445473 - 05/13/11 01:15 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

is a pack of wolves hunting deer concerned about the deers feeling or the pain it will feel when they attack it?

you missed the whole point, so i'll repeat it: things die so other live. it's the way of the world.

you think no-one should it meat because you think it's cruel. well i think everyone one should eat a large dose of mushrooms and sit in the woods with a bible until they find God. these are our opinions, we should not force them on others.

what do u think, meat should be outlawed? what would we do with all the livestock? what about all the farmer's, meat packer's, butcher's and trucker's that would be out of work.

be a realist, not an idealist.


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Re: The problem with eating meat [Re: broken]
    #14445482 - 05/13/11 01:18 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

"these are our opinions, we should not force them on others."

Lets get one thing straight. All I am doing is posting my opinions on a message board forum. That does not qualify as "forcing them on others". If you didn't want to read opinions, what are you doing on this message board?

At what point did I "force" you to read any of this?

Also, wolves don't have the option of eating vegetables instead of deer. We do.


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Edited by Moonshoe (05/13/11 01:18 PM)


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Re: The problem with eating meat [Re: Moonshoe]
    #14445536 - 05/13/11 01:29 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Moonshoe said:
"That's another biased source, I asked for an unbiased source."

In epistemological terms, there is no such thing as a truly unbiased source. Everyone comes at things from their own perspective, and that is all a "bias" is.


Oh c'mon, don't give me that bullshit. :lol:

Give me a source whose perspective isn't biased against slaughterhouses..you know this is what I'm asking for, stop trying to evade shit.


Quote:

Moonshoe said:
"It doesn't explain, in detail, which companies/corporations are responsible for such treatment of animals, and where such treatment is occurring (is it all occurring in the USA?). Not all companies/corporations who sell meat are responsible for such treatment of animals, and different slaughterhouses have different slaughtering practices."

At this point you are asking me to write you a research report.


No I'm not..it shouldn't take too long to discover that information if your source is worth a shit.


Quote:

Moonshoe said:
I get paid to do that for other people, and if you start paying me I might consider doing it for you. Until then, you can do some reading for yourself. I am not your employee.


You are also not a user who understands the rules of this forum..this is the second time you've refused to back up your claims when the burden of proof is on you. If you don't wish to debate further, and would rather cop-out, then that's fine. :grin:


Quote:

Moonshoe said:
I have given you two sources to validate my claims, and if they dont satisy you that is your problem, not mine.


The credibility of your sources is suspect, that's why I asked for an unbiased source.


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.


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Re: The problem with eating meat [Re: broken]
    #14445545 - 05/13/11 01:30 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

closed veil said:
is a pack of wolves hunting deer concerned about the deers feeling or the pain it will feel when they attack it?



No, but I'm not a wolf. I'm a rational human being.

Quote:

you missed the whole point, so i'll repeat it: things die so other live. it's the way of the world.



You missed the whole point too -- plants cannot feel pain, animals can. There is a big difference.

Quote:

you think no-one should it meat because you think it's cruel. well i think everyone one should eat a large dose of mushrooms and sit in the woods with a bible until they find God. these are our opinions, we should not force them on others.



I'm offering my opinion on eating meat in a thread about eating meat. How is that forcing my opinion on others? What are you even talking about? :what:

Quote:

what do u think, meat should be outlawed? what would we do with all the livestock? what about all the farmer's, meat packer's, butcher's and trucker's that would be out of work.



Did I ever say it should be outlawed? Amazing how many people tell me what my opinions are, despite having a generally poor understanding of them.

Quote:

be a realist, not an idealist.



I am a realist, and realistically, I can survive and enjoy food just fine without slaughtering animals to enjoy the taste of their flesh. You haven't proven one thing, or even made a valid point. :shrug:


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Re: The problem with eating meat [Re: Poid]
    #14445573 - 05/13/11 01:35 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Anyone can stall a debate by constantly demanding the other party provide more sources and then saying that you don't believe in those sources.

I think the humane society is a legitimate, valid source. If you disagree, that is your prerogative.

Sending the other party on endless fact finding missions is not a debate, and it is YOU who is coping out, in my opinion.

I could just as reasonably ask you to provide sources saying that factory farms ARE humane. And if you did, they would likely come from within the meat industry or someone who supports the meat industry, thus being "biased". It is a game that doesn't end.

The truth is that arguing that keeping animals in confinement and then slaughtering them is inhumane is like arguing that the sky is blue. If you can't see it for yourself, no one can convince you.


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Edited by Moonshoe (05/13/11 01:37 PM)


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Re: The problem with eating meat [Re: xFrockx]
    #14445587 - 05/13/11 01:38 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

xFrockx said:
"That way we weed out of incompetent parents. "

Is it a grammar test?


How about we sterilize anyone who wants to test people to sterilize them?





It was a test to see who would point it out.


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OfflineNetDiver
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Re: The problem with eating meat [Re: Moonshoe]
    #14445604 - 05/13/11 01:41 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Moonshoe said:
Anyone can stall a debate by constantly demanding the other party provide more sources and then saying that you don't believe in those sources.



QFT. It's called the "Moving Goalpost fallacy."

Quote:

I think the humane society is a legitimate, valid source. If you disagree, that is your prerogative.



Yeah. Animal Rights organizations are likely to be the only ones even attempting to expose inhumane slaughterhouse conditions. No one else gives a shit. It's as simple as that. The only other sources are going to be meat industry sources saying "everything is fine, we follow all regulations, move along."

If you're not willing to accept the Humane Society as a reliable source for investigating animal cruelty, you most certainly are moving the goalposts. :lol:


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InvisiblePoid
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Re: The problem with eating meat [Re: NetDiver]
    #14445647 - 05/13/11 01:50 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Moonshoe said:
Anyone can stall a debate by constantly demanding the other party provide more sources and then saying that you don't believe in those sources.


Don't act stupid, you know what kind of source I'm asking for.


Quote:

Moonshoe said:
I think the humane society is a legitimate, valid source. If you disagree, that is your prerogative.


I think it is a valid source for certain information, but not for information regarding this particular topic because it is obviously strongly biased.


Quote:

Moonshoe said:
Sending the other party on endless fact finding missions is not a debate, and it is YOU who is coping out, in my opinion.


I'm just asking you to provide an unbiased source..why this is such a hassle for you is beyond me. If your case is strong, then you should easily be able to find at least one unbiased source.

How is it me who is copping out? :confused:


Quote:

Moonshoe said:
I could just as reasonably ask you to provide sources saying that factory farms ARE humane.


You're looking at it backwards..you were the one who made the claim that they are inhumane, the burden of proof is on you. I never made the claim that they are humane.


Quote:

Moonshoe said:
The truth is that arguing that keeping animals in confinement and then slaughtering them is inhumane is like arguing that the sky is blue.


It is not necessarily inhumane..not all butchered animals lived a life of suffering, and not all of them are slaughtered inhumanely..many slaughterhouses have certain standards that they must honor by law regarding the manner in which they dispatch their animals.



Quote:

Samurai Drifter said:
QFT. It's called the "Moving Goalpost fallacy."


I'm not moving the goalpost here, I just want an unbiased source on the matter; this is not a heavy request. I believe the credibility of his sources is suspect, and this is a legitimate reason to request for an unbiased source.


Quote:

Samurai Drifter said:
Yeah. Animal Rights organizations are likely to be the only ones even attempting to expose inhumane slaughterhouse conditions. No one else gives a shit. It's as simple as that.


So you don't think they may exaggerate some things?


Quote:

Samurai Drifter said:
The only other sources are going to be meat industry sources saying "everything is fine, we follow all regulations, move along."


No, there are plenty of other sources, like Time magazine for example, or any major news organization.


Quote:

Samurai Drifter said:
If you're not willing to accept the Humane Society as a reliable source for investigating animal cruelty, you most certainly are moving the goalposts. :lol:


I think they have a certain agenda which causes them to exaggerate their facts..this is not an unreasonable suspicion.


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.


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OfflineJordan Black
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Registered: 05/09/11
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Last seen: 12 years, 7 months
Re: The problem with eating meat [Re: Poid] * 1
    #14445652 - 05/13/11 01:51 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

"they are obviously strongly biased."

Well, now the burden of proof is on you. Find me an unbiased article that proves that the humane society is strongly biased.

:rolleyes:


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OfflineJordan Black
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Registered: 05/09/11
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Last seen: 12 years, 7 months
Re: The problem with eating meat [Re: Jordan Black]
    #14445688 - 05/13/11 01:59 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Anyways, here is another source about inhumane factory farming.

"Millions of broiler chickens are housed in industrial
barns containing up to 25,000 birds. Birds are bred to
have such heavy breasts that many are unable to
stand, and die of thirst because they are unable to
reach water

l Thousands of dairy cows are confined in concrete
encased feedlots. To artificially boost milk production,
cows are often injected with hormones that cause
crippling loss of bone mass and produce painful
infections. Animals are milked by mechanical devices
as many as three times each day. The farmer/animal
connection ceases to exist in these massive industrial
dairy factories;

which force them to spend their lives in tight metal
pens, often standing painfully on slated concrete
floors, breathing almost poisonous levels of ammonia
and hydrogen sulfide from the manure stored under
their pens. Hogs are sentient, social creatures that can
be debilitated by stress when deprived of outlets for
their nature behavior. Antibiotics and other artificial
inputs are given, in part, to overcome the physical
symptoms of this stress.

l Egg laying hens are confined by the millions in giant
industrial barns, living in tight metal cages, called
"battery cages" stacked one atop another. Hens are
forced to artificially molt (lose their feathers) through
systematic starvation."

http://www.columbia.org/pdf_files/husbandry.pdf

It took me two seconds to find it, and you could have found it yourself if you weren't too busy using lazy "move the goalpost" debate tactics.

But of course now you can just say "that one is biased as well" and you can do that ad nauseum, which is exactly why it is a bullshit debate strategy.


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InvisibleMoonshoe
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Re: The problem with eating meat [Re: Jordan Black]
    #14445708 - 05/13/11 02:03 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

"But of course now you can just say "that one is biased as well" and you can do that ad nauseum, which is exactly why it is a bullshit debate strategy."

:thumbup:


--------------------


Everything I post is fiction.


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InvisiblePoid
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Re: The problem with eating meat [Re: Jordan Black]
    #14445743 - 05/13/11 02:09 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Jordan Black said:
Anyways, here is another source about inhumane factory farming.

"Millions of broiler chickens are housed in industrial
barns containing up to 25,000 birds. Birds are bred to
have such heavy breasts that many are unable to
stand, and die of thirst because they are unable to
reach water

l Thousands of dairy cows are confined in concrete
encased feedlots. To artificially boost milk production,
cows are often injected with hormones that cause
crippling loss of bone mass and produce painful
infections. Animals are milked by mechanical devices
as many as three times each day. The farmer/animal
connection ceases to exist in these massive industrial
dairy factories;

which force them to spend their lives in tight metal
pens, often standing painfully on slated concrete
floors, breathing almost poisonous levels of ammonia
and hydrogen sulfide from the manure stored under
their pens. Hogs are sentient, social creatures that can
be debilitated by stress when deprived of outlets for
their nature behavior. Antibiotics and other artificial
inputs are given, in part, to overcome the physical
symptoms of this stress.

l Egg laying hens are confined by the millions in giant
industrial barns, living in tight metal cages, called
"battery cages" stacked one atop another. Hens are
forced to artificially molt (lose their feathers) through
systematic starvation."

http://www.columbia.org/pdf_files/husbandry.pdf

It took me two seconds to find it, and you could have found it yourself if you weren't too busy using lazy "move the goalpost" debate tactics.


I was not moving the goalpost, I was simply asking for an unbiased source. :facepalm:


The Sierra Club is America's oldest, largest, and most influential grassroots environmental organization.

Yet another biased source, golly gee. :lol:


It's not up to me to back up somebody else's claims with evidence, the burden of proof is on the claimant.



Quote:

Jordan Black said:
But of course now you can just say "that one is biased as well" and you can do that ad nauseum, which is exactly why it is a bullshit debate strategy.


Wow, I can't believe so many people here don't understand that his sources were heavily biased...:huxleyfacepalm:


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.


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OfflineJordan Black
Male

Registered: 05/09/11
Posts: 59
Last seen: 12 years, 7 months
Re: The problem with eating meat [Re: Poid] * 1
    #14445768 - 05/13/11 02:15 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

"Wow, I can't believe so many people here don't understand that his sources were heavily biased."

You do realize that your own judgment on what is and is not biased is itself simply your own personal bias don't you?

There is no such thing as an unbiased person or an unbiased source. Your judgment that environmental organizations are "biased" just reveals your own anti-environmental bias.

It is circular, and you are simply falling back on this whole "bias" crutch because you have run out of steam for real debate.

:thumbdown:


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InvisibleMoonshoe
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Re: The problem with eating meat [Re: Poid]
    #14445793 - 05/13/11 02:20 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Exactly! you keep saying that the burden of proof is on me to prove that factory farm slaughterhouses are inhumane, but your claim that my sources and Jordan Black's sources are invalid is itself a claim, and that puts the burden of proof back on you. You can't prove that the facts presented to you are false any more than we can prove they are true.

All you are doing is derailing the thread.

What are you waiting for, a study of factory farms done by secretaries, janitors and nuns?

The only people who DO these studies are people who have an interest in them! (AKA a "bias).

No one does a study they have no interest in , therefore all studies are biased!



--------------------


Everything I post is fiction.


Edited by Moonshoe (05/13/11 02:22 PM)


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InvisiblePoid
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Re: The problem with eating meat [Re: Jordan Black]
    #14445795 - 05/13/11 02:21 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Jordan Black said:
"Wow, I can't believe so many people here don't understand that his sources were heavily biased."

You do realize that your own judgment on what is and is not biased is itself simply your own personal bias don't you?


I made clear what it is I am requesting:

Quote:

Poid said:
Give me a source whose perspective isn't biased against slaughterhouses..you know this is what I'm asking for, stop trying to evade shit.




Quote:

Jordan Black said:
...you are simply falling back on this whole "bias" crutch because you have run out of steam for real debate.


Not true, I just want a source that isn't biased in his favor. :wink:


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.


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OfflineJordan Black
Male

Registered: 05/09/11
Posts: 59
Last seen: 12 years, 7 months
Re: The problem with eating meat [Re: Poid]
    #14445815 - 05/13/11 02:26 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

For God's sake, the internet is crawling with PHOTOS and VIDEOS of inhumane factory farm practices.

What you are doing is exactly like holocaust deniers. All the facts are right in front of your face but you deny them on the basis that they all come from "pro-jews" or "anti-nazis". An organization can have a bias but a photo or a video can not.

In the amount of time you have wasted whining about "burden of proof" and "bias" you could have answered this question for yourself a hundred times over.

Pathetic!


Edited by Jordan Black (05/13/11 02:27 PM)


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Invisiblehelix
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Re: The problem with eating meat [Re: Poid]
    #14445822 - 05/13/11 02:27 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Poid said:
Quote:

Jordan Black said:
"Wow, I can't believe so many people here don't understand that his sources were heavily biased."

You do realize that your own judgment on what is and is not biased is itself simply your own personal bias don't you?


I made clear what it is I am requesting:

Quote:

Poid said:
Give me a source whose perspective isn't biased against slaughterhouses..you know this is what I'm asking for, stop trying to evade shit.




Quote:

Jordan Black said:
...you are simply falling back on this whole "bias" crutch because you have run out of steam for real debate.


Not true, I just want a source that isn't biased in his favor. :wink:





"Gail Eisnitz, chief investigator for the Humane Farming Association (HFA), interviewed slaughterhouse workers in the U.S. who say that, because of the speed with which they are required to work, animals are routinely skinned while apparently alive, and still blinking, kicking, and shrieking. Eisnitz argues that this is not only cruel to the animals, but also dangerous for the human workers, as cows weighing several thousands of pounds thrashing around in pain are likely to kick out and debilitate anyone working near them.[12]
According to the HFA, Eiznitz interviewed slaughterhouse workers representing over two million hours of experience, who, without exception, told her that they have beaten, strangled, boiled, and dismembered animals alive, or have failed to report those who do.

The HFA alleges that workers are required to kill up to 1,100 hogs an hour, and end up taking their frustration out on the animals.[13] Eisnitz interviewed one worker, who had worked in ten slaughterhouses, about pig production. He told her:
“ Hogs get stressed out pretty easy. If you prod them too much, they have heart attacks. If you get a hog in the chute that's had the shit prodded out of him and has a heart attack or refuses to move, you take a meat hook and hook it into his bunghole. You try to do this by clipping the hipbone. Then you drag him backwards. You're dragging these hogs alive, and a lot of times the meat hook rips out of the bunghole. I've seen hams — thighs — completely ripped open. I've also seen intestines come out. If the hog collapses near the front of the chute, you shove the meat hook into his cheek and drag him forward.[14] "


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InvisiblePoid
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Re: The problem with eating meat [Re: Jordan Black]
    #14445832 - 05/13/11 02:29 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Moonshoe said:
Exactly! you keep saying that the burden of proof is on me to prove that factory farm slaughterhouses are inhumane, but your claim that my sources and Jordan Black's sources are invalid is itself a claim, and that puts the burden of proof back on you.


So are you asking me to provide evidence for my claim that your guys' sources are invalid and biased in your favor? Really?


Quote:

Moonshoe said:
You can't prove that the facts presented to you are false any more than we can prove they are true.


That is precisely why I would like to see information from a credible source that is not biased against slaughterhouses.


Quote:

Moonshoe said:
All you are doing is derailing the thread.


I honestly don't know what the fuss is about, or why you're accusing me of derailing the thread..if you don't want to provide a source that isn't biased in your favor, then that's fine, there's no need to make these accusations. :shrug:



Quote:

Jordan Black said:
For God's sake, the internet is crawling with PHOTOS and VIDEOS of inhumane factory farm practices.


If you happened to read the thread, you would know that this point has already been covered..hardly any of those videos have a date on them, nor do they indicate what country they are in. I know that, in the past, the treatment of animals in slaughterhouses was extremely inhumane, but nowadays, laws that have been put into place drastically reduced the prevalence and degree of inhumane practices in slaughterhouses.


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.


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InvisiblePoid
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Re: The problem with eating meat [Re: helix]
    #14445853 - 05/13/11 02:34 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

aronf13 said:
Quote:

Poid said:
Quote:

Jordan Black said:
"Wow, I can't believe so many people here don't understand that his sources were heavily biased."

You do realize that your own judgment on what is and is not biased is itself simply your own personal bias don't you?


I made clear what it is I am requesting:

Quote:

Poid said:
Give me a source whose perspective isn't biased against slaughterhouses..you know this is what I'm asking for, stop trying to evade shit.




Quote:

Jordan Black said:
...you are simply falling back on this whole "bias" crutch because you have run out of steam for real debate.


Not true, I just want a source that isn't biased in his favor. :wink:





"Gail Eisnitz, chief investigator for the Humane Farming Association (HFA), interviewed slaughterhouse workers in the U.S. who say that, because of the speed with which they are required to work, animals are routinely skinned while apparently alive, and still blinking, kicking, and shrieking. Eisnitz argues that this is not only cruel to the animals, but also dangerous for the human workers, as cows weighing several thousands of pounds thrashing around in pain are likely to kick out and debilitate anyone working near them.[12]
According to the HFA, Eiznitz interviewed slaughterhouse workers representing over two million hours of experience, who, without exception, told her that they have beaten, strangled, boiled, and dismembered animals alive, or have failed to report those who do.

The HFA alleges that workers are required to kill up to 1,100 hogs an hour, and end up taking their frustration out on the animals.[13] Eisnitz interviewed one worker, who had worked in ten slaughterhouses, about pig production. He told her:
“ Hogs get stressed out pretty easy. If you prod them too much, they have heart attacks. If you get a hog in the chute that's had the shit prodded out of him and has a heart attack or refuses to move, you take a meat hook and hook it into his bunghole. You try to do this by clipping the hipbone. Then you drag him backwards. You're dragging these hogs alive, and a lot of times the meat hook rips out of the bunghole. I've seen hams — thighs — completely ripped open. I've also seen intestines come out. If the hog collapses near the front of the chute, you shove the meat hook into his cheek and drag him forward.[14] "



I've actually heard that the manner in which pigs are slaughtered is extremely inhumane..I don't agree with those practices one bit. However, that pigs are slaughtered this way is in no way an indication that all other slaughtered animals are also slaughtered this way.

I'd be interested in seeing the source for that information BTW. :mushroom2:


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.


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Offlinebroken
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Re: The problem with eating meat [Re: NetDiver]
    #14445881 - 05/13/11 02:41 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

closed veil said:is a pack of wolves hunting deer concerned about the deers feeling or the pain it will feel when they attack it?




Quote:

Samurai Drifter said: No, but I'm not a wolf. I'm a rational human being.




says you.

Quote:

closed veil said:you missed the whole point, so i'll repeat it: things die so other live. it's the way of the world.




Quote:

Samurai Drifter said:You missed the whole point too -- plants cannot feel pain, animals can. There is a big difference.




who says plants can't feel pain? they respond to music, human voice and human touch.

i know worms don't feel pain, so you can eat worms guilt free.

Quote:

closed veil said:you think no-one should it meat because you think it's cruel. well i think everyone one should eat a large dose of mushrooms and sit in the woods with a bible until they find God. these are our opinions, we should not force them on others.




Quote:

Samurai Drifter said:I'm offering my opinion on eating meat in a thread about eating meat. How is that forcing my opinion on others? What are you even talking about? :what:




and i'm talking about mushrooms on a mushrooms forum. duh!

Quote:

closed veil said:what do u think, meat should be outlawed? what would we do with all the livestock? what about all the farmer's, meat packer's, butcher's and trucker's that would be out of work.




Quote:

Samurai Drifter said:
Did I ever say it should be outlawed? Amazing how many people tell me what my opinions are, despite having a generally poor understanding of them.




see how i used a question mark? that means it's question, not a statement.


Quote:

closed veil said:be a realist, not an idealist.




Quote:

Samurai Drifter said:
I am a realist, and realistically, I can survive and enjoy food just fine without slaughtering animals to enjoy the taste of their flesh. You haven't proven one thing, or even made a valid point. :shrug:




no, i've made points that you don't view as valid, as you have made points that i don't view as valid.

not eating meat doesn't make you a realest, it make you a vegetarian.


--------------------
:willynilly:


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Invisiblehelix
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Re: The problem with eating meat [Re: Poid]
    #14445985 - 05/13/11 03:03 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

aronf13 said:
Quote:

Poid said:
Quote:

Jordan Black said:
"Wow, I can't believe so many people here don't understand that his sources were heavily biased."

You do realize that your own judgment on what is and is not biased is itself simply your own personal bias don't you?


I made clear what it is I am requesting:

Quote:

Poid said:
Give me a source whose perspective isn't biased against slaughterhouses..you know this is what I'm asking for, stop trying to evade shit.




Quote:

Jordan Black said:
...you are simply falling back on this whole "bias" crutch because you have run out of steam for real debate.


Not true, I just want a source that isn't biased in his favor. :wink:





"Gail Eisnitz, chief investigator for the Humane Farming Association (HFA), interviewed slaughterhouse workers in the U.S. who say that, because of the speed with which they are required to work, animals are routinely skinned while apparently alive, and still blinking, kicking, and shrieking. Eisnitz argues that this is not only cruel to the animals, but also dangerous for the human workers, as cows weighing several thousands of pounds thrashing around in pain are likely to kick out and debilitate anyone working near them.[12]
According to the HFA, Eiznitz interviewed slaughterhouse workers representing over two million hours of experience, who, without exception, told her that they have beaten, strangled, boiled, and dismembered animals alive, or have failed to report those who do.

The HFA alleges that workers are required to kill up to 1,100 hogs an hour, and end up taking their frustration out on the animals.[13] Eisnitz interviewed one worker, who had worked in ten slaughterhouses, about pig production. He told her:
“ Hogs get stressed out pretty easy. If you prod them too much, they have heart attacks. If you get a hog in the chute that's had the shit prodded out of him and has a heart attack or refuses to move, you take a meat hook and hook it into his bunghole. You try to do this by clipping the hipbone. Then you drag him backwards. You're dragging these hogs alive, and a lot of times the meat hook rips out of the bunghole. I've seen hams — thighs — completely ripped open. I've also seen intestines come out. If the hog collapses near the front of the chute, you shove the meat hook into his cheek and drag him forward.[14] "




Quote:

Poid said:
Quote:

aronf13 said:
Quote:

Poid said:
Quote:

Jordan Black said:
"Wow, I can't believe so many people here don't understand that his sources were heavily biased."

You do realize that your own judgment on what is and is not biased is itself simply your own personal bias don't you?


I made clear what it is I am requesting:

Quote:

Poid said:
Give me a source whose perspective isn't biased against slaughterhouses..you know this is what I'm asking for, stop trying to evade shit.




Quote:

Jordan Black said:
...you are simply falling back on this whole "bias" crutch because you have run out of steam for real debate.


Not true, I just want a source that isn't biased in his favor. :wink:





"Gail Eisnitz, chief investigator for the Humane Farming Association (HFA), interviewed slaughterhouse workers in the U.S. who say that, because of the speed with which they are required to work, animals are routinely skinned while apparently alive, and still blinking, kicking, and shrieking. Eisnitz argues that this is not only cruel to the animals, but also dangerous for the human workers, as cows weighing several thousands of pounds thrashing around in pain are likely to kick out and debilitate anyone working near them.[12]
According to the HFA, Eiznitz interviewed slaughterhouse workers representing over two million hours of experience, who, without exception, told her that they have beaten, strangled, boiled, and dismembered animals alive, or have failed to report those who do.

The HFA alleges that workers are required to kill up to 1,100 hogs an hour, and end up taking their frustration out on the animals.[13] Eisnitz interviewed one worker, who had worked in ten slaughterhouses, about pig production. He told her:
“ Hogs get stressed out pretty easy. If you prod them too much, they have heart attacks. If you get a hog in the chute that's had the shit prodded out of him and has a heart attack or refuses to move, you take a meat hook and hook it into his bunghole. You try to do this by clipping the hipbone. Then you drag him backwards. You're dragging these hogs alive, and a lot of times the meat hook rips out of the bunghole. I've seen hams — thighs — completely ripped open. I've also seen intestines come out. If the hog collapses near the front of the chute, you shove the meat hook into his cheek and drag him forward.[14] "



I've actually heard that the manner in which pigs are slaughtered is extremely inhumane..I don't agree with those practices one bit. However, that pigs are slaughtered this way is in no way an indication that all other slaughtered animals are also slaughtered this way.

I'd be interested in seeing the source for that information BTW. :mushroom2:




- Eisnitz, Gail A. Slaughterhouse. Prometheus Books, 1997, cited in Torres, Bob. Making a Killing. AK Press, 2007, p. 46.
^ Eisnitz, p. 82, cites in Torres, Bob. Making a Killing. AK Press, 2007, p. 47.

I don't have the time to check out those books but if you want to there they are

Have you read fast food nation? anything by michael pollen?

Here's some info on the cow lifestyle, from an interview with Michael Pollen who's a journalist studying this stuff.

"By the time a modern American beef cow is six months old, it has seen its last blade of grass for the rest of its life. As soon as they wean, they spend the first six months out on the pasture with their moms, nursing, nibbling grass. The mom is converting the grass's protein that's turning into milk for the animal, doing the way they've done it for millions of years. We take them off grass. We put them in pens, called backgrounding pens, and we teach them how to eat something that they are not evolved to eat, which is grain, and mostly corn.

Why do we do this? Well, it's a very good question, because it makes absolutely no sense from an ecological standpoint. From a financial standpoint, it does. It makes them grow much more quickly. It makes them get fat, and we like our meat really fat and marbled. And it allows us to speed up the lifespan. In capitalism, time is money.

We're taking cows that we used to let grow to be four or five years old before we eat them [and] we've got it down to 14 months, and we're heading toward 11 months. What allows us to do this is getting them [on] corn, getting them off this whole evolutionary relationship they've had with grass.

The problem with this system, or one of the problems with this system, is that cows are not evolved to digest corn. It creates all sorts of problems for them. The rumen is designed for grass. And corn is just too rich, too starchy. So as soon as you introduce corn, the animal is liable to get sick.

It creates a whole [host] of changes to the animal. So you have to essentially teach them how to eat corn. You teach their bodies to adjust. And this is done in something called the backgrounding pen at the ranch, which is kind of the prep school for the feedlot. Here's where you teach them how to eat corn.

You start giving them antibiotics, because as soon as you give them corn, you've disturbed their digestion, and they're apt to get sick, so you then have to give them drugs. That's how you get in this whole cycle of drugs and meat. By feeding them what they're not equipped to eat well, we then go down this path of technological fixes, and the first is the antibiotics. Once they start eating the [corn], they're more vulnerable. They're stressed, so they're more vulnerable to all the different diseases cows get. But specifically they get bloat, which is just a horrible thing to happen. They stop ruminating.

You have the image of a cow on grass of the cow ruminating, which is chewing its cud and burping a lot. In fact, a lot of greenhouse gases come out of the stock as methane emerges from their mouth as they eructate -- it's a technical term. And they bring down saliva in this process, and it keeps their stomach very base rather than acid.

So you put in the corn, and this layer of slime forms over the rumen. You've got to picture the rumen. It's a 45-gallon fermentation tank. It's essentially fermenting the grass. Suddenly your slime forms and the gas can't escape, and the rumen just expands like a balloon. It's pressing against the lungs and the heart, and if nothing is done, the animal suffocates.

So what is done is, if you catch it in time, you stick a hose down the esophagus and you release the gas and maybe give the animal some hay or grass, and it's a lot healthier. But it's one of the things that happens to cows on corn. ...

Not all cows get bloat. They're prone to bloat. It's a serious problem on feedlots. They also get acidosis, which is an acidifying of the rumen. ... And when the animals get acid stomach, it's a really bad case of heartburn, and they go off their feed. Eventually, if you give them too much corn too quickly, it ulcerates the rumen; bacteria escape from the rumen into the blood stream, and end up in the liver, creating liver abscesses.

What do we do about that? Another antibiotic. ... Most cows on feedlots eating this rich diet of corn are prone to having their livers damaged. So to prevent that, or limit the incidence of liver disease, we have to give them another antibiotic.

I've talked to many people who've said that if you kept animals on this diet indefinitely, they couldn't survive. They're eating a diet on feedlots at 80 percent to 90 percent corn that would sooner or later, as one vet told me, blow out their liver. They could not continue that. And in fact, dairy cows, which we want to live up to 8-10 years, we don't feed them like this, because we know that it hurts their health. So yes, economically, we tolerate sick cows. ...

But the issue is, you have an economic logic, and you have an evolutionary and natural logic. And when you get to the cow, you see them come into conflict. It may well make sense economically to feed cows what we feed them, but ecologically, it's a disaster. It's a disaster for them because they're getting sick.

Instead, we take the Midwest and we pave it essentially [with] corn and soybeans, and the environmental consequences of growing all that corn -- and most of the corn grown in this country goes to feed livestock -- is environmental degradation of the Midwest and the Gulf. There's a dead zone in the Gulf of Mexico a thousand miles wide that is the result of nitrogen runoff coming down the Mississippi and killing all the life in this zone in the Gulf. And that's coming directly from corn.

So you see the cow is connected to that dead zone in the Gulf, and the cow is connected to our health, too. All these things are connected. There is an ecological logic that is very different than the economic logic. And in that ecological logic, you can't separate the health of the cow, the health of the environment, and the health of the eater.

then the cow gets on a truck and goes to the feedlots. When it gets to the feedlot, its life changes in a substantial way. It will never see any grass ever again. ... A feedlot is a city of cows. I saw several of them in western Kansas, and it was a stunning experience. You're driving down these ramrod straight roads through Kansas, and it's just empty, empty prairie. And suddenly there was this giant subdivision, only it's a city for animals. It's cattle pens, black earth, as far as you can see. Of course it's not really earth, you learn as you get a little closer; it's manure, reaching to the horizon.

they really are medieval cities in many respects, I realized, because they are cities in the days before modern sanitation. They're from the time when cities really were stinky. When they were teeming and filthy and pestilential and liable to be ridden with plague, because you had people coming from many, many different places, bringing many, many different microbes into a concentrated area where they could spread them around.

The only reason this doesn't happen in the city of animals, the modern city of animals, is of course the modern antibiotics. That is the only thing that keeps the modern feedlots from being different than the 14th-century city where everybody was dying of plague. We can, to some extent, control the disease with drugs. Absent the drugs, these places would be as plague-ridden and pestilential as a 14th-century city. ...

Every hour I was on this feedlot, another tanker truck came in filled with liquefied fat. Another one with liquefied protein. Every hour there was another truck with 50,000 pounds of corn. You see all the feedstuff coming into the city, and you see the waste going out. The wastes, by and large, are manure, trucks coming in from farms carrying it away. But a lot of this was pooled in these lagoons, which were just full of this."


Edited by helix (05/13/11 03:07 PM)


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Re: The problem with eating meat [Re: helix]
    #14446108 - 05/13/11 03:31 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Oh my god that is all soo horrible!

I dont know how anyone can eat meat!!

i mean haven't you ever seen a cute little baby pig or lamb or sheep or cow?!

How could you do it! It is so sad and horrible, I just can't believe people don't think about how it would feel if some evil animal ate us even thought they didn't have to, just because they liked the taste!

Just eat vegetables and stuff people!

:foreheadslap:


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Re: The problem with eating meat [Re: helix]
    #14446135 - 05/13/11 03:36 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

aronf13 said:
Have you read fast food nation? anything by michael pollen?


Nope, neither.


Quote:

aronf13 said:
Here's some info on the cow lifestyle, from an interview with Michael Pollen who's a journalist studying this stuff.


In what year did this interview take place?

Pretty harrowing stuff BTW. :crazy3:


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Re: The problem with eating meat [Re: broken]
    #14446181 - 05/13/11 03:45 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

closed veil said:
says you.




I have the capability to feel empathy, unlike wolves. :shrug:


Quote:

who says plants can't feel pain? they respond to music, human voice and human touch.



They don't have a nervous system, and the fact that they respond to human interaction doesn't have anything to do with whether or not they feel pain. They respond to the increased levels of CO2 that we breathe out. :shrug:

Quote:

i know worms don't feel pain, so you can eat worms guilt free.



Worms actually have brains and relatively complex physiology. There are some mollusks that have no nervous systems and I don't really have any qualms about eating them.

Quote:


and i'm talking about mushrooms on a mushrooms forum. duh!



Yeah, and that's not forcing your opinion on anyone else. What is your point? What does that have anything to do with the ethics of eating meat? :what:

Quote:

not eating meat doesn't make you a realest, it make you a vegetarian.



The whole point is that you can be both. :facepalm:


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Re: The problem with eating meat [Re: Moonshoe]
    #14446189 - 05/13/11 03:47 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

The claim about requiring a given amount of grain to produce a given amount of meat(and usually, we're talking about cows here), ignores one factor:  Many livestock can eat grass, which doesn't have to compete with crops.  Now, grass-fed beef is more expensive than corn-fed beef, but that's good, because it means people will eat less of it.  Meat is made artificially cheap by agricultural subsidies, particularly for corn.  As such, repealing agricultural subsidies would be much better for the environment than any personal decision to abstain from meat.


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Re: The problem with eating meat [Re: NetDiver]
    #14446241 - 05/13/11 03:56 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Samurai Drifter said:
Quote:

closed veil said:
says you.




I have the capability to feel empathy, unlike wolves. :shrug:


Do you have a source for the emboldened portion?


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fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.


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Re: The problem with eating meat [Re: Poid]
    #14446290 - 05/13/11 04:03 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

No, the research on what animals feel empathy is pretty scarce, due to the fact that until recently most scientists have off-hand dismissed the possibility of any animals besides humans feeling empathy.

But the question is moot anyway, since wolves have evolved to exclusively digest meat, whereas we can get our nutrition other ways. We're just different animals.


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Re: The problem with eating meat [Re: NetDiver]
    #14446366 - 05/13/11 04:17 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Samurai Drifter said:
No, the research on what animals feel empathy is pretty scarce, due to the fact that until recently most scientists have off-hand dismissed the possibility of any animals besides humans feeling empathy.

But the question is moot anyway, since wolves have evolved to exclusively digest meat, whereas we can get our nutrition other ways. We're just different animals.




Should apes be morally condemned for eating meat?


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Re: The problem with eating meat [Re: 4896744]
    #14446414 - 05/13/11 04:24 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

I never talked about morally condemning anyone or anything. I talked only about a personal choice I have made, and the reasons for it. I don't preach to anyone about vegetarianism, I just thought that I'd offer my thoughts in this thread about it.

You guys are working really hard to put me on a moral high horse that I was never on.


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Re: The problem with eating meat [Re: NetDiver]
    #14446443 - 05/13/11 04:30 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

good for you for being vegetarian. I don't even think there is anything to argue about! It is mean to kill animals and eat them just cuz u like the way they taste! Duh!

Good for you for putting your concience above your taste buds!

:thumbup:


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Re: The problem with eating meat [Re: baby9]
    #14446465 - 05/13/11 04:35 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

*OC deletes naughty comment about certain things tasting good*


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Re: The problem with eating meat [Re: NetDiver]
    #14446478 - 05/13/11 04:36 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Samurai Drifter said:
You guys are working really hard to put me on a moral high horse that I was never on.


I'm not doing that I was just interested in that claim you made about wolves. :angrydog:


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fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.


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Re: The problem with eating meat [Re: Poid]
    #14446516 - 05/13/11 04:42 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

I have to wonder what it would be like for an alien biologist to come to Earth and study humans.  Would they look at our livestock and slaughterhouses and be like "OMG this is horrible!  What are they doing to those animals?"  Or would they say, "Hmmm...this is a remarkable evolutionary adaptation for staying well-fed and having a stable source of protein"?  I tend to think it'd be the latter.


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Re: The problem with eating meat [Re: Silversoul]
    #14446521 - 05/13/11 04:43 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

We haven't had a good Soylent Green reference in like 3 years. I must find a way to work that in here somehow.


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Re: The problem with eating meat [Re: Silversoul]
    #14446527 - 05/13/11 04:44 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Silversoul said:
I tend to think it'd be the latter.


Me too. :thumbup:


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fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.


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Re: The problem with eating meat [Re: Silversoul]
    #14446536 - 05/13/11 04:46 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

"Or would they say, "Hmmm...this is a remarkable evolutionary adaptation for staying well-fed and having a stable source of protein"?  I tend to think it'd be the latter. "

lol yeah maybe. Im sure they would be very impressed at our astronomical rates of obesity, heart disease and cancer, all of which are directly related to our excessive consumption of high sodium, high fat, body acidifying meats, and the ecological devestation caused by clear cutting the rain forest to make room for mcdonalds beef cattle

:rolleyes:


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Re: The problem with eating meat [Re: Jordan Black]
    #14446565 - 05/13/11 04:51 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

I see. What would have a greater impact on the planet: humans living to 60 years old or humans living to 90 years old?


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Re: The problem with eating meat [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #14446577 - 05/13/11 04:55 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

It depends on whether the reason people are dying younger is because they have been doing things that destroy the environment.


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Re: The problem with eating meat [Re: Jordan Black]
    #14446587 - 05/13/11 04:57 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

I suspected the math would be too difficult for you. My bad. :tongue:


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Re: The problem with eating meat [Re: Jordan Black]
    #14446588 - 05/13/11 04:57 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Jordan Black said:
lol yeah maybe. Im sure they would be very impressed at our astronomical rates of obesity, heart disease and cancer, all of which are directly related to our excessive consumption of high sodium, high fat, body acidifying meats, and the ecological devestation caused by clear cutting the rain forest to make room for mcdonalds beef cattle



I agree.  We use way too much corn feed and high-fructose corn syrup.  Down with corn!  Corn is murder!


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Re: The problem with eating meat [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #14446592 - 05/13/11 04:59 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

lol its not a mathematical question, as you may or may not be capable of understanding.


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Re: The problem with eating meat [Re: Silversoul]
    #14446607 - 05/13/11 05:03 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

I agree.  We use way too much corn feed and high-fructose corn syrup.  Down with corn!  Corn is murder!




Let's go back in time to when men lived to be 35 years old. That was way more natural.


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Re: The problem with eating meat [Re: NetDiver]
    #14446809 - 05/13/11 05:40 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

closed veil said:
i know worms don't feel pain, so you can eat worms guilt free.



Quote:

Samurai Drifter said:
Worms actually have brains and relatively complex physiology. There are some mollusks that have no nervous systems and I don't really have any qualms about eating them.
Quote:



some scientists, i think in Sweden, proved just a few yours ago that worms do not have a nervous system, and hence, they can't feel pain.

but now your treading on soft ground. if something doesn't feel pain it's OK to eat? i thought you where anti-meat because of the cruel way in which the animals die, but now your basicaly saying: if it doesn't feel pain it's not cruel? so if i go around stabbing paralyzed people in the legs it's OK because they don't feel pain right?

Quote:

closed veil said: not eating meat doesn't make you a realest, it make you a vegetarian.




Quote:

Samurai Drifter said:
The whole point is that you can be both. :facepalm:




sure you can. but one only needs to read a few of your posts to know your not a realist. do you kno what a realist is?

more questions for you and you haven't answered any of the previous questions.


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Re: The problem with eating meat [Re: baby9]
    #14446847 - 05/13/11 05:47 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

baby9 said:
good for you for being vegetarian. I don't even think there is anything to argue about! It is mean to kill animals and eat them just cuz u like the way they taste! Duh!





how about killing animals to control the population for their safety as well as humans? if we didn't hunt deer the population would explode, more would be running onto highways, causing auto accidents killing deer and people. they would over populate to the point where they would starve to death in the winter from lack of food. they would spread disease to each other, other animals, and deer ticks would spread lymes disease to humans at a much higher rate, and eventually the population would crash.


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Re: The problem with eating meat [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #14446896 - 05/13/11 06:01 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

OrgoneConclusion said:
We haven't had a good Soylent Green reference in like 3 years. I must find a way to work that in here somehow.





how about "its made of VEGANS!"


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Re: The problem with eating meat [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #14447069 - 05/13/11 06:34 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

OrgoneConclusion said:
Quote:

I agree.  We use way too much corn feed and high-fructose corn syrup.  Down with corn!  Corn is murder!




Let's go back in time to when men lived to be 35 years old. That was way more natural.




The only moral path we can choose is to revert back to small hunter-gatherer societies. :lol:


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Re: The problem with eating meat [Re: 4896744] * 1
    #14448134 - 05/13/11 09:33 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

OK, you first.


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Re: The problem with eating meat [Re: 4896744]
    #14448948 - 05/14/11 12:20 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Wrong. The only moral path is for everyone to voluntarily kill themselves, so that the earth can continue on without human intervention. How do we get everyone to kill themselves? First, make everyone eat nothing but vegetables. Then, take away all our worldly possessions, especially the ones that use electricity. After that, sterilize everyone who fails an IQ test, then sterilize everyone who objects to the sterilizations, and then everyone else. Finally, give everyone guns and a copy of the Denial of Death by Ernest Becker. Should do the trick, if it doesn't then one hour of uninterrupted conversation with whoever is left should do it.


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Re: The problem with eating meat [Re: xFrockx]
    #14449197 - 05/14/11 01:36 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

And then the Earth would be all pissed like, "Damn, it took me 3.5 billion years to create the pinnacle of biological machines and there was a glitch in the software. Now I have been set back at least 250 million years!"
:kingcrankey:


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Re: The problem with eating meat [Re: Moonshoe]
    #14449211 - 05/14/11 01:41 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Moonshoe said:
One of the most direct and devastating forms of environmentally destructive consumption by the rich is found in the practice of meat eating. As societies become more affluent, the rate at which they consume meat tends to increase sharply. Unfortunately, eating meat is generally an environmentally destructive practice, because “meat is a roundabout and energy inefficient way to get nutrients to the human population” .

The sobering fact is that to produce “one kilo of edible meat product” requires the use of “around thirteen kilograms of feed grains” resulting in a huge burden on land use. This enormous use of land results in biodiversity loss and other “environmental losses associated with the industrial production of feed grains and livestock” such as eutrophication and the resulting destruction of marine life.

In essence, the diet-related ecological footprint of a meat eater is probably as much as thirteen times higher than that of a vegan or vegetarian, and each kilo of meat eaten by those wealthy enough to afford it could have provided food for thirteen hungry humans instead.




Why are vegans/vagitarians so holier than thou? Im gonna make a huge ecological footprint and poop out my Porterhouse steak into it. :themoreyouknow:


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Re: The problem with eating meat [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #14449235 - 05/14/11 01:49 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Nah not really.


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Re: The problem with eating meat [Re: xFrockx]
    #14449251 - 05/14/11 01:53 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

If we were gone who would defend the Earth from the coming Mantoid invasion? We are like white blood cells.


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Re: The problem with eating meat [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #14449256 - 05/14/11 01:54 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

The mantoids would just destroy themselves eventually.


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Re: The problem with eating meat [Re: xFrockx]
    #14449258 - 05/14/11 01:55 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

After fucking up the environment?


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Re: The problem with eating meat [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #14449319 - 05/14/11 02:08 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Yeah, but not before they try to become vegans and control their population with involuntary sterilization in vain. Ever see a mantoid without carrion and successful copulation? Not fucking happy.


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Re: The problem with eating meat [Re: xFrockx]
    #14449498 - 05/14/11 03:07 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

"I can kill 'cause in God I trust"- Eddy Vedder


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Re: The problem with eating meat [Re: broken]
    #14449698 - 05/14/11 05:36 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Has anyone brought up the concept of PASTURED meat yet?  Do all these vegetarians/vegans realize that not raising meat on pasture is a giant waste of resources.  Humans cant eat grass or trees, but ruminants can.  Most crops cannot be grown on grass land, but animals can.  Furthermore, a proper permaculture farm is extremely efficient in recycling plant wastes to animals and animal wastes to plants.  All the vegans would rather use pesticides than use chickens and ducks to keep out insect pests.  Because letting the chickens and ducks eat all those tasty insects in a safe environment is so cruel.  We should use tons of chemical fertilizers to put on our fields because I feel bad taking the cows poop!

Our monocrop oil intensive farming is destroying the planet.  Animals are in fact a way out of this problem, the can restore topsoil and produce meat from grass.  We need to be efficient in our use of small farms with pasture.

Lastly, I laughed really hard when you guys were saying that only indigenous should eat meat, and it is bad for us because we do it inhumanely.

Look how humanely this indigenous Australian killed this kangaroo.



Only difference here being these guys know they need to kill other life to survive them self, and are thankful to the animal for its life.  People today have no respect for their food, they don't give thanks to the dead organisms that make them live.  They try to skirt the fact by not killing anything, rather than embracing the circle of life and trying to keep your ecosystem in check rather than choosing animals as better than the rest of the earth because of your animal centric view point.


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"A human being is part of the whole, called by us 'Universe'; a part limited in time and space. He experiences himself, his thoughts and feelings as something separated from the rest -- a kind of optical delusion of his consciousness.

This delusion is a kind of prison for us, restricting us to our personal desires and affection for a few persons nearest us.

Our task must be to free ourselves from this prison by widening our circle of compassion to embrace all living creatures and the whole nature in its beauty.

Nobody is able to achieve this completely but striving for such achievement is, in itself, a part of the liberation and a foundation for inner security."

Albert Einstein


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Re: The problem with eating meat [Re: Cannashroom]
    #14449709 - 05/14/11 05:46 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

they don't give thanks to the dead organisms that make them live




Why do you perceive this as desirable? Will a dead animal understand and appreciate my English words of gratitude?


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OfflineCannashroom
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Re: The problem with eating meat [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #14449850 - 05/14/11 07:05 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

OrgoneConclusion said:
Quote:

they don't give thanks to the dead organisms that make them live




Why do you perceive this as desirable? Will a dead animal understand and appreciate my English words of gratitude?




Who said that English words were spoken.  I just mean acknowledging that you are taking your life to sustain your own and being respectful of the organisms that do it for you.  I think it makes a lot more sense to thanks the cow I am eating for its flesh than some imaginary man in the sky who had nothing to do with it getting there.

In my opinion, if you are more respectful of the food you eat, it is more likely that you will be getting food that was respectful to the environment in its production.

This is just my personal opinion though.


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"A human being is part of the whole, called by us 'Universe'; a part limited in time and space. He experiences himself, his thoughts and feelings as something separated from the rest -- a kind of optical delusion of his consciousness.

This delusion is a kind of prison for us, restricting us to our personal desires and affection for a few persons nearest us.

Our task must be to free ourselves from this prison by widening our circle of compassion to embrace all living creatures and the whole nature in its beauty.

Nobody is able to achieve this completely but striving for such achievement is, in itself, a part of the liberation and a foundation for inner security."

Albert Einstein


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Re: The problem with eating meat [Re: Cannashroom]
    #14449867 - 05/14/11 07:13 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

  I think it makes a lot more sense to thanks the cow I am eating for its flesh than some imaginary man in the sky who had nothing to do with it getting there.






It makes no sense whatsoever to thank a dead animal in any language or even silently.

Do you thanks plants for every single breath of oxygen you take? Do you thank the sun 24 hours a day for providing warmth and energy?

I am fairly certain that the sun will shine whether appreciated or unappreciated.


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Re: The problem with eating meat [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #14449886 - 05/14/11 07:21 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

OrgoneConclusion said:
Quote:

  I think it makes a lot more sense to thanks the cow I am eating for its flesh than some imaginary man in the sky who had nothing to do with it getting there.






It makes no sense whatsoever to thank a dead animal in any language or even silently.

Do you thanks plants for every single breath of oxygen you take? Do you thank the sun 24 hours a day for providing warmth and energy?

I am fairly certain that the sun will shine whether appreciated or unappreciated.




It makes no sense to be grateful for what makes you live?  Maybe to you it doesn't, but it makes a lot of sense to me to appreciate what keeps me alive. whether it, or you, cares, I don't give a shit.  I am thankful for my life, simple as that.


Edited by Cannashroom (05/14/11 07:23 AM)


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Re: The problem with eating meat [Re: Cannashroom]
    #14449894 - 05/14/11 07:24 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Let us all now bow our heads and thank our intestinal bacteria for keeping us alive. Be sure to give thanks to each individual bacterium.

Amen.


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Re: The problem with eating meat [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #14449936 - 05/14/11 07:43 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

OrgoneConclusion said:
Let us all now bow our heads and thank our intestinal bacteria for keeping us alive. Be sure to give thanks to each individual bacterium.

Amen.




haha, well..

I eat lots of nice pro/pre-biotics to keep em healthy.  Improper gut bacteria is implicated in many diseases.  I am very thankful for all my bacteria.  They help keep my immune system strong too.  Symbiosis ftw!

I also respect them by not eating meat with antibiotics or using antibiotic soaps (soap is already anti-microbial ffs).

And I am thankful for the plants and sun...


Quote:

And immediately, I thought of the sun. Happened like that. Overnight I became a sun-worshipper. Well, not overnight, you can't see the sun at night. But first thing the next morning, I became a sun-worshipper. Several reasons. First of all, I can see the sun, okay? Unlike some other gods I could mention, I can actually see the sun. I'm big on that. If I can see something, I don't know, it kind of helps the credibility along, you know? So everyday I can see the sun, as it gives me everything I need; heat, light, food, flowers in the park, reflections on the lake, an occasional skin cancer, but hey. At least there are no crucifixions, and we're not setting people on fire simply because they don't agree with us.

Sun worship is fairly simple. There's no mystery, no miracles, no pageantry, no one asks for money, there are no songs to learn, and we don't have a special building where we all gather once a week to compare clothing. And the best thing about the sun, it never tells me I'm unworthy. Doesn't tell me I'm a bad person who needs to be saved. Hasn't said an unkind word. Treats me fine. So, I worship the sun. But, I don't pray to the sun. Know why? I wouldn't presume on our friendship. It's not polite.




--------------------
"A human being is part of the whole, called by us 'Universe'; a part limited in time and space. He experiences himself, his thoughts and feelings as something separated from the rest -- a kind of optical delusion of his consciousness.

This delusion is a kind of prison for us, restricting us to our personal desires and affection for a few persons nearest us.

Our task must be to free ourselves from this prison by widening our circle of compassion to embrace all living creatures and the whole nature in its beauty.

Nobody is able to achieve this completely but striving for such achievement is, in itself, a part of the liberation and a foundation for inner security."

Albert Einstein


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